General Jumpstart, Historic Horizons spoiler thread

[Peter LaCara]

So this might only be of interest to me, the guy who has an Arena-only cube. That said, WotC announced a new Arena exclusive Jumpstart today:
https://www.ign.com/articles/jumpst...rs-mtg-arena-digital-only-card-reveal-details

This is going to include cards that only exist on Arena - cards that only work digitally. For example:

 

[blacksmithy]

i am looking forward to this in my paper cube actually, because i may steal some of the digital only designs that “create a card,” i think conjure is the mechanic that does that?

 

[MilesOfficial]

I (almost) wish they printed this in paper, this is just a better Oath of Druids, right? There's a ton of cool applications for this, and I'd really enjoy it for the flexibility even though (maybe especially because) I don't run any meaningful tribal synergies in my list outside of some light zombie love. I would end up printing this out if it didn't require yet another explainer for my drafters.



I mean, this is totally playable as written for cube, it just has the same memory issues that half of the good cards they print these days have. I mean, I'd rather pay 1 extra mana for one of the many other mono red Sarkhans so I don't have to hardcast all my dragons, but this is a cool card nonetheless.

 

[Rusje]

View attachment 4977

I (almost) wish they printed this in paper, this is just a better Oath of Druids, right? There's a ton of cool applications for this, and I'd really enjoy it for the flexibility even though (maybe especially because) I don't run any meaningful tribal synergies in my list outside of some light zombie love. I would end up printing this out if it didn't require yet another explainer for my drafters.

View attachment 4978

I mean, this is totally playable as written for cube, it just has the same memory issues that half of the good cards they print these days have. I mean, I'd rather pay 1 extra mana for one of the many other mono red Sarkhans so I don't have to hardcast all my dragons, but this is a cool card nonetheless.

Is nobody confused with the language? Seek, conjure? And how would you use this sarkhan in paper? It shaves perpetually 1 mana off dragons in your hand. How do you keep that information hidden without later having to prove that you did not cheat (especially if you have duplicates)?

 

[alvoi]

Every time I see one of these cards I think “I would very happy if they tried a bit more and did something like this that worked in paper, too”.

The token cards aren’t new, there is Time Sidewalk and I think they could have done it in paper, too. The “seek” mechanic is a thing that’s comparable to “reveal cards from your library until you find X”, so with a little tweak it could be done. The “perpetual” stuff in my opinion sucks, it goes against the comprehensive rules and doesn’t feel like Magic at all. One of the basic rules of Magic is that when something changes zone, it’s a different object, and a lot of the strategy is based on that.

 

[Velrun]

Wow this sucks. Not because they are doing this but because this is a Clue that they will keep doing this. The future is online.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

I hate everything about this.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Wow this sucks. Not because they are doing this but because this is a Clue that they will keep doing this. The future is online.

I'll talk to you again in ten years when paper Magic still exists, and still gets paper exclusive products like Modern Horizons. I mean, I don't care for any of these because I don't play Arena, but it's not like the sky is falling and the end is nigh.

I encourage everyone who thinks this spells doom and gloom for the game to (re)watch this gem of a video:

 

[ravnic]

I'd love a cool conjure card. Works perfectly fine with a token box and diffrently colored sleeves

 

[Onderzeeboot]

View attachment 4977

I (almost) wish they printed this in paper, this is just a better Oath of Druids, right? There's a ton of cool applications for this, and I'd really enjoy it for the flexibility even though (maybe especially because) I don't run any meaningful tribal synergies in my list outside of some light zombie love. I would end up printing this out if it didn't require yet another explainer for my drafters.

Oh, by the way, seek puts a card into its owner's hand, so I don't think it's really comparable to Oath of Druids. It's basically a tutor mechanic with fuzzy targets, which you can't really do in paper Magic. For example, seek looks like it could be implemented as a "reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal X", until you see Faceless Agent and realize that there is no way for your opponent to verify what the most prevalent creature type in your library is unless you reveal your entire library to them.

 

[Brad]

Zzzzz...

 

[Velrun]

I'll talk to you again in ten years when paper Magic still exists, and still gets paper exclusive products like Modern Horizons. I mean, I don't care for any of these because I don't play Arena, but it's not like the sky is falling and the end is nigh.

I don’t think I mentioned the sky falling nor that the end is nigh. You are making it sound out of proportions.

What good is it that paper Magic still gets set released in 10 years if the cards are released on Magic Arena three weeks prior? How much jank, brewing can you actually show up with at your local game store for a Standard tournament if the meta has been solved a few weeks ago on another platform? I doubt the fun will be as awesome as it should be, simply because all the fun were put into the digital product.

Magic Arena should not outrun the actual physical game.

Another question for you: Do you think Magic Arena players would celebrate the news if Wizards announced that Arena releases will always be 3 weeks behind real releases? Will this hurt or gain the player base on Arena?

 

[sigh]

FWIW, they can do (a version of) perpetual within the rules of paper magic already:

 

[blacksmithy]

I'd love a cool conjure card. Works perfectly fine with a token box and diffrently colored sleeves

i was thinking the same thing! i already have custom tokens with blue sleeves (the main cube is black sleeves), so i could have a conjure box with red or green or whatever too. actually, i kind of want to do this for my Booster Tutor “sealed booster pack” as well now that Conjure has me thinking about it.

 

[Sheltem]

Isn't Garth One Eye already a paper form of a conjure card?

 

[ravnic]

No, as Garth only lets you cast a copy of that card (which becomes a token), while a conjured card can be in your hand, in your graveyard, even be put into your library, for the duration of the game

 

[alvoi]

Still, the new mechanics seem all something that could exist in paper Magic, but they tweaked it in a proper way exactly to make them feel different.

 

[Seeker]

I actually really like this card - even in paper, just reveal your hand and flip crap off the top until you hit whatever you're supposed to seek and call it good - as a higher-power Divination that is, you know, still a Divination so it's only for lower power levels.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I don’t think I mentioned the sky falling nor that the end is nigh. You are making it sound out of proportions.

What good is it that paper Magic still gets set released in 10 years if the cards are released on Magic Arena three weeks prior? How much jank, brewing can you actually show up with at your local game store for a Standard tournament if the meta has been solved a few weeks ago on another platform? I doubt the fun will be as awesome as it should be, simply because all the fun were put into the digital product.

Magic Arena should not outrun the actual physical game.

Another question for you: Do you think Magic Arena players would celebrate the news if Wizards announced that Arena releases will always be 3 weeks behind real releases? Will this hurt or gain the player base on Arena?

I might have misunderstood your "the future is online remark", but taken together with your "Magic: the Gathering players are no longer the focus group of Wizards of the Coast. Now they tender to Magic the Gathering Arena players." it sure sounded to me like you were lamenting the end of "real" Magic, or at least some opinion that was getting in that neighborhood. Apologies if I misinterpreted your stance.

In any case, iirc they have only been "privileging" the Arena community with early releases because of the COVID pandemic, which sadly is still raging across the world. I have no idea whether they plan to reverse the early Arena release once it's safe again to be within arm's reach of each other, I guess we'll have to wait and see. The fact that they are still printing paper only product like Modern Horizons 2 despite the ongoing pandemic is at least encouraging to me, and I could see them returning to a simult release schedule once more and larger tournaments are able to be held again.

Two additional foot notes. First, your question is similar to the complaints that circulated around the time MtGO and netdecking got popular. I mean, the 90's were really the peak as far as taking jank decks to a tournament goes. Those days are long gone, and while early set releases on Arena accentuate the "problem", Magic hasn't suffered a decline in players because of earlier events with similar consequences. Second, the question presupposes that any form of netdecking and accelerated meta optimization indeed invalidate taking jank decks to an FNM. This has never stopped people from taking jank decks to FNM though. There's always been a group of people competitive enough to take to netdecking in an effort to win that FNM, and there have always been players content to play their kitchen brews to a 0-4 result, because they just want to have fun with an original concoction. Though early set releases on Arena definitely give Spikes more solid info on how the meta breaks down, they don't really change the FNM dynamic.

 

[Velrun]

@Onderzeeboot

A question about both formats

Paper
Do you think people enjoy or dislike testing new cards before they can watch other people play the cards online?

Arena
Do you think Magic Arena players would celebrate the news if Wizards announced that Arena releases will always be 3 weeks behind real card releases? Will this hurt or gain the player base on Arena?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

@Onderzeeboot

A question about both formats

Paper
Do you think people enjoy or dislike testing new cards before they can watch other people play the cards online?

First, I'm pretty sure most players don't watch other people play the cards online. Second, of those that do, a lot get excited by what they see and inspired to play the deck (or something similar) they saw one of their favorite content creators play. A lot of players are not rich enough to try anything on a whim, and are actually happy they have broad ideas about the viability of different cards by the time the set hits the analogue streets. With that in mind, I think the percentage of players that feels they can't test out the new cards because the meta has already been solved (if that even is possible in only three weeks) and for that reason dislikes early set releases on Arena is relatively small.

Arena
Do you think Magic Arena players would celebrate the news if Wizards announced that Arena releases will always be 3 weeks behind real card releases? Will this hurt or gain the player base on Arena?

I think this hypothetical question is irrelevant. Of course they wouldn't celebrate it. Why would they? If Wizards of the Coast decided to flip the head start into a delay of three weeks (which, remember, has been the status quo before the pandemic), you might see lower player numbers around the release. I don't think this decision would significantly impact the long term player base on Arena though. Either you are an online player or you're not.

 

[Velrun]

@Onderzeeboot

Wait what? You don't think Magic players watch other players online? You don't think streamers are being watched play Magic Arena by people who also play Magic?

Yeah you're right: They would not celebrate. Because why would they? Well same situation here.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

@Onderzeeboot

Wait what? You don't think Magic players watch other players online? You don't think streamers are being watched play Magic Arena by people who also play Magic?

I think the majority of Magic players hardly ever watches other players online. At least not to such an extent that they're very aware of the shape of the evolving meta during those three weeks a new set is only available on Arena. That does not mean I think no Magic players watch othe players online.

Yeah you're right: They would not celebrate. Because why would they? Well same situation here.

There's a huge difference between not celebrating and complaining about it? I mean, I guess complaining about it is understandable if you really believe you're being disadvantaged, but I personally don't think that's really the case here.

 

[Velrun]

@Onderzeeboot
I guess we're going to have to disagree then. I very much doubt Magic Arena will slowly get fewer and fewer new players and a smaller and smaller player base. But I highly expect this to be the case with paper Magic if we fast forward 10 years like you suggested.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

The death of (paper) Magic has been foretold a hundred times by now, but it's arguably more popular than it ever was (aside from that pandemic thing), so I think agreeing to disagree is indeed the best option here. Only time will tell if this time someone was right