Grillo's second article:
http://riptidelab.com/learning-from-pauper-the-aristocrats/
http://riptidelab.com/learning-from-pauper-the-aristocrats/
Article Learning From Pauper—The Aristocrats
- Thread starter Eric Chan
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
So, I wanted to immediately take those ideas and apply them to a big aristocrats deck concept:
I'm not sure what power level they hit at, but there is tons to like about this card within the context of an artifact based aristocrats package, and I think it finally gives the U/R (U/R/W?) artifact theme the direction it badly needs.
The body is an aristocrats for artifacts with a triggered ability that acts as both reach and board control. Its also a good source of fodder. The thropter bodies work well as evasive threats that can be pumped by anthem effects, trigger metalcraft/affinity, and carry equipment. If we combine this with good artifact travelers and a few other artifact focused aristocrat effects we can have a value U/R artifact based sacrifice deck, with tons of library manipulation (can add more with imperial recruiter). We treat tinker the same way we treat reanimation--turn it into a value play rather then a power play.
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I'm not sure what power level they hit at, but there is tons to like about this card within the context of an artifact based aristocrats package, and I think it finally gives the U/R (U/R/W?) artifact theme the direction it badly needs.
The body is an aristocrats for artifacts with a triggered ability that acts as both reach and board control. Its also a good source of fodder. The thropter bodies work well as evasive threats that can be pumped by anthem effects, trigger metalcraft/affinity, and carry equipment. If we combine this with good artifact travelers and a few other artifact focused aristocrat effects we can have a value U/R artifact based sacrifice deck, with tons of library manipulation (can add more with imperial recruiter). We treat tinker the same way we treat reanimation--turn it into a value play rather then a power play.
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Great article! BW sac theme is something I really want to get going. It's a perfect fit with the aggro decks I'm running now.
I really like the suggestion of Orzhov Pontiff. I was looking for something to tie the archetype together in these two colours, especially after Sorin, Lord of Innistrad proved too annoying. He's even a human!
So is Gather the Townsfolk still going to be too weak?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think gather the townsfolk is pretty negligible unless you want it specifically to power champion of the parish. With dash humans in black and bloodsoaked champion, I just don't think you need to run gather anymore to power champion.
Instant speed token makers are just so much better because you can use them as defacto removal.
Instant speed token makers are just so much better because you can use them as defacto removal.
I was about to reply on this card as well. I have a playset that I bought (and never did anything with) from back during Ravnica block. Let us know if this thing is actually playable. I have really wanted to get one haunt guy in the cube just to represent the mechanic, but Blind Hunter is just too low powered IMO (am I wrong here?). Plus, one sided -1/-1 effects are really actually pretty solid in cube (Doomwake Giant is very playable in my experience for that effect alone), and this guy gets you two triggers potentially.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
When I was researching for the article I was looking for a higher powered overrun effect, something equivalent to goblin bushwhacker. Everything is either a midrange/ramp card or telegraphs itself. The literally only two cards that fit my requirements (3 mana or less, creature, ETB trigger) are bushwhacker and pontiff (and kind of selfless cathar I guess).
I suppose this is one of those irritating gaps in the card pool when you start moving up the power curve, but it just leaves you with anthem effects and fortify effects. The former dosen't create any perceived pressure, and the only version of the latter that is good enough to run i.m.o is rally the peasants. And neither of them are ideal in the archetype.
The other nice thing about pontiff is that it can act as token hate as well as an overrun effect. You could run it in a big aristocrats deck as well.
I suppose this is one of those irritating gaps in the card pool when you start moving up the power curve, but it just leaves you with anthem effects and fortify effects. The former dosen't create any perceived pressure, and the only version of the latter that is good enough to run i.m.o is rally the peasants. And neither of them are ideal in the archetype.
The other nice thing about pontiff is that it can act as token hate as well as an overrun effect. You could run it in a big aristocrats deck as well.
Well, I'm certainly tempted to toss in pontiff and see what it does.
I'm particularly interested in anti-token tech that isn't super narrow and which doesn't unnecessarily hammer other decks. While I culled some of the abusive token generators, it can still be oppressive if you have no sweeper effect. But it's not an easy thing to add hate for because a lot of stuff hurts non-token strategies more than it hurts tokens. Things like Arc Trail for example is backbreaking for T1 Elf T2 Utility guy or T1 2/1 aggro critter, T2 aggro dude. But lingeringsouls.dec really doesn't care as much and that's the deck which needs the nerf bat. It's why I will run electrolyze and fire//ice though (because it's never more than 1 per target - which punishes the non-token decks less).
They really need to make a targeted burn spell that copies itself for each token it targets. I'd auto-add that in a second.
I'm particularly interested in anti-token tech that isn't super narrow and which doesn't unnecessarily hammer other decks. While I culled some of the abusive token generators, it can still be oppressive if you have no sweeper effect. But it's not an easy thing to add hate for because a lot of stuff hurts non-token strategies more than it hurts tokens. Things like Arc Trail for example is backbreaking for T1 Elf T2 Utility guy or T1 2/1 aggro critter, T2 aggro dude. But lingeringsouls.dec really doesn't care as much and that's the deck which needs the nerf bat. It's why I will run electrolyze and fire//ice though (because it's never more than 1 per target - which punishes the non-token decks less).
They really need to make a targeted burn spell that copies itself for each token it targets. I'd auto-add that in a second.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
My attitude towards tokens has really improved from the innistrad theme cube to the penny pincher cube. You don't have to just approach it from an angle of removal, but can also approach it from an evasion angle (which is ultimately better, since your aggro decks won't be running a lot of that removal).
Cards like emerge unscathed, champion of lambholt, anax and cymede, abzan falconer, and tuskguard captain all can deal with someone trying to clog the board with tokens in that cube. Legion loyalist is another good card for that purpose.
Cards like emerge unscathed, champion of lambholt, anax and cymede, abzan falconer, and tuskguard captain all can deal with someone trying to clog the board with tokens in that cube. Legion loyalist is another good card for that purpose.
I do need to re-evaluate some of my evasion options for aggressive decks. But it's not a complete solution unfortunately. At least not in my meta. With the focus my group puts on midrange strategies (part because that is what they enjoy drafting and part because we play a lot of multi-player where all-in aggro just doesn't work), you really can't build an aggressive deck with weak removal and/or without late game options. You'll just lose if you do unless you get a god draw and we are playing "attack left" or some variation where you can vomit your hand on the table profitably.
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I'd much rather try to introduce ways for players to build aggressive minded decks (ones that want to put pressure early) but which have ways to generate CA later in the game or ones based on interesting mechanics or synergies. I'm not convinced Orzhov Pontiff is that kind of card (1/1 for 3 is about as unaggressive as you get), but his abilities have applications in a lot of decks (creature decks like anthems and one sided -1/-1 effects are solid as they can deal with tokens, other aggro armies or even make it so you can attack profitably in combat).
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We've had this discussion before I think. I know this isn't necessarily a popular opinion, but I'm fundamentally against traditional aggro. It's non-interactive in it's most efficient form since the whole goal is to kill your opponent before they can really react to what you are doing. And while it appropriately punishes durdling (the only positive thing it brings), it almost forces side boarding and it accentuates the rock/paper/scissor matchup thing, I honestly don't understand the appeal. As if that wasn't enough, to really make a deck like that which isn't super unreliable, you need a whole crap ton of redundancy in the cube. Otherwise, you just can't build it (especially if you aren't drafting the whole cube - very common over here). And I have no desire to allocate a massive chunk of my cube to aggro only cards if there isn't something more to them. There are so many interesting cards I want to run and it's brutal enough figuring out what cards to cut as is. I simply refuse to running boring shit like Savannah Lions just so the hard aggro guy can have eight 2 power one drops in his deck.
I'd much rather try to introduce ways for players to build aggressive minded decks (ones that want to put pressure early) but which have ways to generate CA later in the game or ones based on interesting mechanics or synergies. I'm not convinced Orzhov Pontiff is that kind of card (1/1 for 3 is about as unaggressive as you get), but his abilities have applications in a lot of decks (creature decks like anthems and one sided -1/-1 effects are solid as they can deal with tokens, other aggro armies or even make it so you can attack profitably in combat).
I run a pretty average riptide cube and it's been pretty good here. Since you ping your opponent it can be up to an 8 point life swing, and evasion is relevant a lot of the times
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Pontiff gains a lot if you've got a sac outlet though, and a one sided infest is super sweet reward for 2 colors + sac outlet + disposable creature
I just tested both Blind Hunter and Orzhov Pontiff. Both were certainly playable in there respective decks. It's been awhile since I have played haunt cards and I made a couple stupid plays with each (one of which totally lost me a game). But once I got past being a moron, I was a fan. Not sure I have room for both though. So I need to figure out which one I'm giving a slot to. Probably Pontiff.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Which modulars are you grouping it with? I think the card is at its best (in this context) when you can deploy a line of token fodder and than alpha for a huge chunk of damage. One of the things that makes goblin bushwhacker and craterhoof behemoth so good is that they have haste (and in goblin bushwhackers case, haste for the team) so you can add substantially to the amount of damage coming over on the critical turn. If you are playing guys fairly, pontiff is at a pretty big disadvantage compared to those two cards in the damage department (though obviously he has more utility), and really benefits from having a pretty wide board to work with.
I put Pontiff in the white module which has the token support. So it could pump my team or it could hose my opponents tokens. I ran it in a midrangy WW deck and it came in for Pillory of the Sleepless (originally Mortify). It worked nicely actually. I want to find a place to put Pillory back in somewhere else, but don't have a place for it yet (I like that card). Getting the double -1/-1 in one turn is not easy to do, but thankfully it is generally not required to be effective against tokens. I do wish it was bigger than a 1/1 since it's fairly useless as a dude. Overall though, I like Pontiff enough to try him for awhile. The art is pretty sweet too.
Blind Hunter went into the blue module and slotted into my Esper control test deck there with all the sac shenanigans. That deck went through a lot of tweaks since inception and I have yet to compare all the changes with the original modules I posted, but hunter I think replaced Ghost Council of Orzhova (which proved too hard to cast). This is where I made a bunch of stupid plays initially. Like wrathing the board with blind hunter out when I should have chumped with it the turn before and haunted something first (doh!). But that was just me being a dumb ass. Last night I recycled it a few times with phyrexian reclamation and flesh carver to good effect. It's certainly more work than just auto-piloting Obzedat, Ghost Council to victory. But that's exactly what I'm after with my list, and so I want to keep it in. It's certainly walking fine line though where the effort involved makes me question whether it justifies a precious gold slot.
For what it's worth, the power level is such that I can't imagine anyone with a contemporary list would be interested in either card. But there is a lot of play to be had with these guys if your list is lower powered. On that note, this recent list I'm toying with has a ton of retro cards in it from Ravnica block, and playing with them again is bringing back a lot of great memories. It is forcing me to remove some higher powered cards though. I culled several bombs over the weekend (Vedalken Shackles got the ax among a few other mainstays).
Blind Hunter went into the blue module and slotted into my Esper control test deck there with all the sac shenanigans. That deck went through a lot of tweaks since inception and I have yet to compare all the changes with the original modules I posted, but hunter I think replaced Ghost Council of Orzhova (which proved too hard to cast). This is where I made a bunch of stupid plays initially. Like wrathing the board with blind hunter out when I should have chumped with it the turn before and haunted something first (doh!). But that was just me being a dumb ass. Last night I recycled it a few times with phyrexian reclamation and flesh carver to good effect. It's certainly more work than just auto-piloting Obzedat, Ghost Council to victory. But that's exactly what I'm after with my list, and so I want to keep it in. It's certainly walking fine line though where the effort involved makes me question whether it justifies a precious gold slot.
For what it's worth, the power level is such that I can't imagine anyone with a contemporary list would be interested in either card. But there is a lot of play to be had with these guys if your list is lower powered. On that note, this recent list I'm toying with has a ton of retro cards in it from Ravnica block, and playing with them again is bringing back a lot of great memories. It is forcing me to remove some higher powered cards though. I culled several bombs over the weekend (Vedalken Shackles got the ax among a few other mainstays).
Honestly removing powered cards to make room for sole really sweet cards with some nostalgic value sprinkled in just seems like the right thing to do
How do we feel about Teysa, Orzhov Scion in this archetype?
Could be really cool! Does anything make BW tokens?
Oh wow that seems pretty disgusting with gravecrawlers and bloodsoaked champions.
Oh my god yeah, I forgot this will produce tokens with other sac outlets.
Early in my Magic playing career I once build a casual deck with Teysa, some tokens producers and Mind Bend. Infinite remove creature from game triggers. Good times.
It was fragile and pretty janky truth be told, but I remember pulling that combo off in a multi-player game one time and it was pretty awesome.
It was fragile and pretty janky truth be told, but I remember pulling that combo off in a multi-player game one time and it was pretty awesome.
Dudes is Teysa in the Scuttlemutt cube?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think people run that card in the tiny EDH format. It always looked a little too durdle to me.
Unfortunatly, the sweetest cards in the Mardu colors are 3cc spells, which creates the risk of people building decks averaging 3-4cc rather than 1-2cc. Its not the worst, the decks really ride the line between aggro and midrange (like I suggested was a worthwhile goal in the first article) but it would be nice to see more 2cc incentive, as that is a better pressure point for a format i.m.o.
At what point does goblin bushwhacker stop being playable? This conversation is making me realize just how unique that effect is.
Unfortunatly, the sweetest cards in the Mardu colors are 3cc spells, which creates the risk of people building decks averaging 3-4cc rather than 1-2cc. Its not the worst, the decks really ride the line between aggro and midrange (like I suggested was a worthwhile goal in the first article) but it would be nice to see more 2cc incentive, as that is a better pressure point for a format i.m.o.
At what point does goblin bushwhacker stop being playable? This conversation is making me realize just how unique that effect is.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Must return to (big) aristocrats, with artifacts. Pia and Kiran too strong:
Aristocrats
Arcum Dagsson
Daretti, Scrap Savant
etherium astrolabe
goblin welder
greater gargadon
tinker
reshape
trash for treasure
trading post
magmaw
Fodder
myr sire
hammer of purphoros
shrine of loyal legions
epochrasite
ichor wellspring
mycosynth wellspring
terrarion
chromatic star
goblin kaboomist
tangle wire
baleful strix
tumble magnet (only with proliferate sub-theme?)
Travelers
A. Primary
spine of ish sah
myr retriever
necropede
perilous myr
solemn simulacrum
su-chi? (sac. ramp?)
cathodion? (sac. ramp?)
summoner's egg? (comboish?)
B. Death Triggers
Sylvok lifestaff
blade of the bloodchief (low tempo format only?)
galvanic juggernaut
feldon of the third path
Support
Thirst for knowledge
razormane masticore
molten-tail masticore
sharding sphinx (best on-theme support creature? run two?)
precursor golemn (balance issues?)
Nevinyrral's disk (tutor for mass removal)
Myr Battlesphere (high removal as-fan only?)
Magister Sphinx (too narrow?)
Duplicant (tutor for spot removal)
time vault(really go deep in combo-control?)
steel hellkite
door to nothingness (just for fun)
Anything here? I showed restraint and left out the splicers (who otherwise would be excellent, and I think master splicer ceilings out with Pia and Kiran).
Aristocrats
Arcum Dagsson
Daretti, Scrap Savant
etherium astrolabe
goblin welder
greater gargadon
tinker
reshape
trash for treasure
trading post
magmaw
Fodder
myr sire
hammer of purphoros
shrine of loyal legions
epochrasite
ichor wellspring
mycosynth wellspring
terrarion
chromatic star
goblin kaboomist
tangle wire
baleful strix
tumble magnet (only with proliferate sub-theme?)
Travelers
A. Primary
spine of ish sah
myr retriever
necropede
perilous myr
solemn simulacrum
su-chi? (sac. ramp?)
cathodion? (sac. ramp?)
summoner's egg? (comboish?)
B. Death Triggers
Sylvok lifestaff
blade of the bloodchief (low tempo format only?)
galvanic juggernaut
feldon of the third path
Support
Thirst for knowledge
razormane masticore
molten-tail masticore
sharding sphinx (best on-theme support creature? run two?)
precursor golemn (balance issues?)
Nevinyrral's disk (tutor for mass removal)
Myr Battlesphere (high removal as-fan only?)
Magister Sphinx (too narrow?)
Duplicant (tutor for spot removal)
time vault(really go deep in combo-control?)
steel hellkite
door to nothingness (just for fun)
Anything here? I showed restraint and left out the splicers (who otherwise would be excellent, and I think master splicer ceilings out with Pia and Kiran).