General Lets talk Cycling

Laz

Developer
It seems that Amonkhet is bringing back one of the greatest mechanics of all time, Cycling; and so now seems as good a time as any to discuss how to incorporate the mechanic into cubes.

For those who have no experience with the mechanic, cycling adds an activated ability to cards which allows a player, at some cost, to discard the card, and draw a new card (or fetch a land from your deck). Sometimes this triggers other abilities, such as on Renewed Faith, or Complicate but normally it just replaces the card in your hand. This naturally adds a lot of consistency to decks in the same way that looting effects do, as cards which aren't useful (such as because of the stage of the game, the board-state, or some other reason) can be transformed into another card which just might be. Expensive cards can be cycled away to avoid mana-screw, lands with cycling can be cycled away when you are flooded, early game counter-spells like Miscalculation can be cycled away when the opponent has no shortage of mana, etc.

First things first, Cycling probably is only going to work as a coherent theme at lower-power levels. This is simply because higher powered environments generally force more interaction, and taking the time off to cycle cards away can mean being overrun. In addition, a number of the interactions which work well with Cycling simply can't compete with the raw power of individual high powered cards.

Reanimation:
I have been playing with a cube in which Cycling features heavily for a fair while now, as a kind of 'draft-something-different' cube, and for me, the interaction which has been the most successful has been Reanimation. Big creatures with cycling provide a self-contained method by which they can be put into the yard, and as they are generally weaker top-end creatures (as a cost of being modal), they are not particularly oppressive when reanimated early.

All of these creatures fall into the 'decent bodies attached to a mechanism for getting them into the graveyard' camp, and are especially strong when you reanimate them on turn 3. They do set the tone for the top-end of your environment though, so if your Twisted Abomination is a little embarrassing in your list, then maybe the theme is a little low-powered.

Delirium:

When I built my list with cycling, Delirium had not been introduced as a mechanic, but on reflection, it seems like an obvious cross-over, as it provides another self-contained mechanism by which to get additional card types into the graveyard. Amonkhet adds a handful of enchantments with cycling, such as Cast Out, and Lay Claim (ok, 7 mana is a lot. I wouldn't have minded a strictly better Confiscate), which can complement other mechanisms for getting enchantments into the yard, as well as a manabase built around Cycling, featuring Ash Barrens along with the new Cycling duals. This makes it much easier to reach the magical 4 card types, especially if artifacts are somehow featured in the list.

Delve:
Straightforward. Cycle cards into your yard, exile them for a discount.

Bounce:
Cards with cycling are powerful because in the situations in which they are not good, you can transform them into another card. Unfortunately you can only do this if they are in your hand. Bouncing your own permanents back to your hand in order to cycle them when they are no longer relevant just feels so incredibly neat. In my current list, I included the bounce-lands as basically the only example of this, but playing a bounce-land in order to return a cycling land, then cycling it (after tapping it for mana to do so!) is a constant highlight, and could probably be explored further. I have to imagine playing Gush and returning cycling duals (as they have basic land types) has to feel pretty amazing. Kaladesh also had a minor 'return ... you control to your hand' theme, so there might be something there.

Cards which say cycling...
I have made it this far without mentioning Astral Slide and Lightning Rift (and the new Drake Haven). They pretty obvious interactions which inform card evaluations throughout the remainder of the draft. Whether it is possible to find a middle-ground with Astral Slide is something else entirely.

I would love to get more thoughts on possible ways in which to incorporate Cycling into a cube list. The mechanic is incredibly flexible, and generates quality games of Magic by increasing consistency and reducing mana-flood/screw.
 
I've been thinking about this too for a little while. I've had a larger than average number of cycling cards in my cube and Amonkhet brings a lot more to recommend it.

There can be an element of 'good stuff' about cycling as they don't necessarily need anything else to be good, as they can always just be another card. I do really like the new cycling trigger cards in Amonkhet though because they don't just trigger on cycling, they work with other discard effects which make them link in with broader effects across the cube. The ones I'm thinking of in particular are

curator of mysteries
Drake haven
Archfiend of Ifnir

In addition, there's an oldie but goodie



Which feels a little outclassed by drake haven, but triggers off your opponents discards as well and brings some more interest to white, so I think it's passable.

So, if you're using them then you can look for discard effects, of which there are plenty,and then you can look for bonuses to graveyard effects:

**Reanimate**



**Cast again from graveyard**



And Aftermath and Embalm

**Count cards in graveyard**



**Recur**



**Effects in Gravyeard**



I still think that unless you really specifically build your cube around it, Astral Slide and Lightning Rift are too narrow.

I think the bounce effects only really apply to the cycling lands. The permanents are usually over costed, so it's unlikely you'd want to trade the in for a card. I'm sure there's exceptions though.
 
A note on the new rewards (Drake Haven, Curator of Mysteries, and Archfiend of Ifnir). They tend to be too slow, despite the more open ended nature of being triggered by discard, for most formats. The only one that I have seen in play heavily is the Drake Haven, where it has only worked as a control tool by putting blockers into play followed giving the deck some teeth post-board wipe.

Beyond that Curator of Mysteries seems to be fine to me considering its solid body. Archfiend of Ifnir promises to have a bit more competition due to being a five drop - not sure if this is a deal breaker yet, but I can see it being just that.

Bellow are some other cards I considered to be interesting for the deck depending on the speed of the cube and power level. Pull From Tomorrow technically isn't cycling, but it does hand off discard trigger that Alfonzo Bonzo highlighted as one of cycles benefits.

 
My concern with Drake Haven is that you have to pay for the drakes (much like you have to pay for Lightning Rift shocks). Astral Slide has a more narrow trigger, but it's always free and that makes is more powerful and abusable IMO.

That said, an army of drakes can definitely do some work. How often will this be better than Talrand, Sky Summoner? Anyone have play test on haven yet?

Astral Slide really shouldn't be thought of as "free" in this context because requiring cycling is a very real cost, to both the deck itself and the format the deck exists in, unless you're giving the deck away in the ULD with cycling mono lands, which is far less exciting imho. Compare that to Drake Haven, which can lead to some pretty hilarious turns where you dump your hand to Wild Mongrel, Magus of the Wheel, Collective Brutality, or any of a variety of other cool cube cards that feature discarding for value, and it seems rather obvious to me that the new "cycle or discard" options pack considerable more punch - and, most importantly (imho), warp your format in far more interesting ways than Astral Slide/Lightning Rift ever would. The cross-over points between discard and other cube themes is significantly larger than the cross-over points between cycling and other cube themes. If you're looking to build a cube with lots of decisions involved in the draft, re-tooling a format to support the new discard-friendly engines is a lot more fun and open-ended, imho, though I suppose it does match up rather poorly if your format is heavily populated by spell-bodies, in which case, Astral Slide is merely another way to make that style of deck feel engaging.

As for the new cycling tools, Shadow of the Grave is crazy poisonous and Archfiend of Ifnir seems pushed way too hard, but it works if your power level is high, I suppose.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yes. Drake haven and company shouldn't be being assessed as cycling cards so much as discard for value cards.

Its like a new form of madness disguised as a cycling mechanic. Haven essentially gives "madness {1} put a 2/2 flyer in play" to every card in your deck once its in play, which is quite stunning. We talk about problems with mechanical density; I would say that fairly solves that problem to a degree and manner we've never seen before, providing your format's power level allows these cards to be played.
 
Is this all based on actual gameplay, or are we all just still theory crafting? Because if it's the latter, I've got two more examples of cards that have a similar trigger which should be good that ended up not being. Mentor of the Meek and Molten Vortex.

Again, I'm happy to be wrong here and actual testing might prove this out. But discarding your hand to Wild Mongrel makes 0 drakes without spending 7 mana. And are we sure discarding 7 cards is worth 7 2/2 flyers? Some games states it might be, but I'm not so sure this is a windfall. Consider too that you were already down a card and your T3 just playing the haven in the first place.

It's an interesting design. It might have some potential. But I think you guys might be overestimating what it actually does and how much you'll need to put into it for value.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I've been playing them and they are good in the right structure, and I think most formats are already running the minimum structure or close to it. The mana invested in a card like haven is fine. More commonly you're looting/sifting away your worst cards into some number of evasive 2/2 threats for {1}, which is a great rate. The card doesn't require you to dump your entire hand to trigger, though its really fun going deep.

The main issue with haven is that its a 3 mana spell that doesn't immediately impact the board upon casting, making it unplayable if your format requires constant board interaction. The more condensed your format is--regardless of the power level--the harder its going to be to justify something like this. But as long as it can pass that base line test I wouldn't shy away from sleeving it up and judging it for yourself.
 
Similarly to Vortex, if you foster the right environment for cards like Haven, they are very cool and impactful in the format. I think Grillo may have mentioned something like this somewhere, but it's absolutely perfect with a blue draw suite based around draw/discard effects.
 
My concern with Drake Haven is that you have to pay for the drakes (much like you have to pay for Lightning Rift shocks). Astral Slide has a more narrow trigger, but it's always free and that makes is more powerful and abusable IMO.

That said, an army of drakes can definitely do some work. How often will this be better than Talrand, Sky Summoner? Anyone have play test on haven yet?

Drake Haven fall more or less under the same lines as Talrand, Sky Summoner in my opinion. They both have a very particular trigger and tend to be slower. The reason that Haven can be put on the same level is that discard triggers, my infinite thanks to looting, are a lot easier to obtain than casting a spell (cube dependent), it is harder to deal with, and cost three mana, not four. (The last point has been relevant for me to some extent.)

One thing that I am not sure about is how often being able to attack and block with Talrand will ever be relevant. It has not been often for me.

Grillo also did an exceptional analysis above on how the card works.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Skulk was dope. Why'd they shitcan it?!

Agree! {U/B} is still lacking a keyword too, and this was such a perfect fit. I hope they return to it someday and decide to make it evergreen like they did with prowess (which was an excellent decision imo).
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Because it's a shit keyword that only works on 1 power sabateurs?
I disagree! It could easily work on higher power creatures as well, though Forgotten Creation obviously isn't the best execution. Obviously the ability is great on saboteurs, but holding that against the keyword is kinda unfair when we've got evergreen keywords like flying and menace around for which exactly the same holds!
 
Yeah but flying and menace are always going to be inherently great, saboteur or not--skulk gets really awkward once you get to higher powers. Like Pale Rider for example--it might as well have been vanilla in most scenarios.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Yeah but flying and menace are always going to be inherently great, saboteur or not--skulk gets really awkward once you get to higher powers. Like Pale Rider for example--it might as well have been vanilla in most scenarios.
That's just statting though. Skulk is naturally better with T>P. Farbog Revenant was secretly much more decent than the very mediocre body for the cost would suggest, because it would kill most cards that could block it without dying itself and could thus chip in for 1 point almost unhindered. Also, does it really matter when it appears mainly on low power minions? Trample mainly appears on high power minions because 1/1 tramples suck. In fact, all evergreen evasion abilities are better on higher power minions. Why not have an evergreen evasion keyword that scales the other way around?

Anyway, you don't have to like the keyword of course, but I sure did, and I'ld gladly include more skulkers in my cube once they print some more decent ones.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
It was flavor text for us most of the time, and actively punished you for buffing the creature. It never really fit into any deck, or inspired anyones creativity.

I was disappointed by it, both conceptually and in execution.

Going to give my gene siskel big thumbs down here; skulk is the "Cop and a Half" of mtg mechanics.
 
It was flavor text for us most of the time, and actively punished you for buffing the creature. It never really fit into any deck, or inspired anyones creativity.

I was disappointed by it, both conceptually and in execution.

Going to give my gene siskel big thumbs down here; skulk is the "Cop and a Half" of mtg mechanics.

Yeah that was my experience as well. Yeah maybe they were poorly designed for the mechanic, but it's not a good sign for what they want to do with the mechanic.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Well, I certainly get why they didn't print more in recent sets, if this forum is any indication of the general appreciation of skulk :)
 
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