Card/Deck Low Power Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
- Start date
I for one welcome our new Sultai overlords. *pukes*
Depends what you want to be doing with it but I think I prefer
Jace looks like Captain America in that card. That doesn't seem right.
Depends what you want to be doing with it but I think I prefer
That definitely does seem to have a better average case scenario (assuming we count the planeswalker bit as trinket text which seems reasonable in a low power cube) since it's basically draw 3 discard 2 compared to draw 3 discard 3 (if you pitch attunement). But on the other hand, I dig how attunement lets you turn excess lands into more castings of it. Seems like that should make it play well with bouncelands. I dunno, maybe it's not worth the loss in average power.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
This is pretty interesting, there are two other contenders, this classic:
And I rather like this one as well
I'm always looking for cool instant speed things to do off of bounceland fueled rewinds (aka low power mana drain), and I rather like how careful consideration enables that, as well as working well with lands returned to hand.
Though maybe its always correct to just fire it off on the main, not sure.
The best card though, is, of course.
Its like it comes with instructions on how to build blue decks.
And I rather like this one as well
I'm always looking for cool instant speed things to do off of bounceland fueled rewinds (aka low power mana drain), and I rather like how careful consideration enables that, as well as working well with lands returned to hand.
Though maybe its always correct to just fire it off on the main, not sure.
The best card though, is, of course.
Its like it comes with instructions on how to build blue decks.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Actually, I stand corrected.
Sorry compulsive research, but frantic search just wins. That card is so busted, in a good way.
Sorry compulsive research, but frantic search just wins. That card is so busted, in a good way.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Anyone have any opinions on this card?
I just realized there is one more defacto multi-color card in my black section that I missed
I actually like stenchskipper, as it introduces an interesting minigame where a player may try to answer it by answering the supporting goblins. The problem is that sometimes people will get confused (and this happened again this weekend) and try to stitch together low CC aggro elements with higher CC midrange elements, than get screwed by their mana base.
I just realized there is one more defacto multi-color card in my black section that I missed
I actually like stenchskipper, as it introduces an interesting minigame where a player may try to answer it by answering the supporting goblins. The problem is that sometimes people will get confused (and this happened again this weekend) and try to stitch together low CC aggro elements with higher CC midrange elements, than get screwed by their mana base.
I ran Graverobber in an early version of my peasant cube but, but cut it as it was the only flip card and I wanted to keep the learning curve down for newer players. While it does provide an interesting mini-game, it's ultimately replaceable by similar effects. As a recent example, Null Caller does similar work without the flip card baggage.
The incidental graveyard hate could matter to other people, but I am trying to keep GY shenanigans low enough that explicit counterplay is a bonus, but not necessary.
The incidental graveyard hate could matter to other people, but I am trying to keep GY shenanigans low enough that explicit counterplay is a bonus, but not necessary.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
That makes sense. I also don't like how awkward those cards are during the draft, as people always want to pause and flip the card over to see what the flip side does.
How have you liked vulturous aven?
How have you liked vulturous aven?
TBH, if WOTC could redo flip cards, they would probably make them double-faced cards now. There's more text box space, there's more art space, and it doesn't look as ugly. (Just a design perspective.)
Also, Vulturous Aven looks like a great deal for Limited, but it's not flashy and exciting enough for Cube. It's... "unsexy" for its cost when you compare it to say, Stronghold Assassin or even Phyrexian Rager. It's not to say the card's bad or underpowered, but it looks underpowered, and that is a factor in the drafts. It's the same problem as Jackal Pup and Elite Vanguard, but to a much lesser extent.
Also, Vulturous Aven looks like a great deal for Limited, but it's not flashy and exciting enough for Cube. It's... "unsexy" for its cost when you compare it to say, Stronghold Assassin or even Phyrexian Rager. It's not to say the card's bad or underpowered, but it looks underpowered, and that is a factor in the drafts. It's the same problem as Jackal Pup and Elite Vanguard, but to a much lesser extent.
Nezumi Graverobber is pretty awesome; he's sometimes swinging as a T3 4/2, and his late-game value for reanimation is sweet. I cut him because he's a real beast as far as graveyard hate goes, and I push graveyard pretty hard these days. While I can tolerate Scavenging Ooze's obscene yard-eating, Graverobber was a bit too much; I like to keep those effects at a minimum, because a little goes a long way. But I recommend him if you want a 'yard hating, beating, reanimating battle biscuit. The card rotation thing is perhaps a bit kooky, but it's worth any mild weirdness for such a cool, unique effect.
I've just added Nezumi Graverobber as I wanted more graveyard removal that was more appropriate to my cube. (In fact, I went back and re-read the graveyard hate thread, and I think you suggested the Graverobber there, Grillo).
I used to be a bit hesitant of it because of the turn 3 4/2 that RBM described, but I'm wondering why I thought that was a problem now. I find the comparison between Ooze and Graverobber odd above though, as I've removed Ooze for being too independently powerful, even though it has +1/+1 counter synergies.
The card rotation thing did give one of my newer players a headache but they got it after I while. I prefer flip to DFCs.
You will probably all laugh, but I've just slotted in
Also Grillo, Stenchskipper always stuck out from your list as odd as well. It might have that interesting mini game but I wonder how fun it actually is? It's just a huge flying beater if you don't get to play the mini game. I might be being harsh, but it feels a bit one dimension and wonder if there was anything more interesting.
I like the idea of Vulterous Aven but that feels pretty low power (says the person who just added junktroller).
I used to be a bit hesitant of it because of the turn 3 4/2 that RBM described, but I'm wondering why I thought that was a problem now. I find the comparison between Ooze and Graverobber odd above though, as I've removed Ooze for being too independently powerful, even though it has +1/+1 counter synergies.
The card rotation thing did give one of my newer players a headache but they got it after I while. I prefer flip to DFCs.
You will probably all laugh, but I've just slotted in
Also Grillo, Stenchskipper always stuck out from your list as odd as well. It might have that interesting mini game but I wonder how fun it actually is? It's just a huge flying beater if you don't get to play the mini game. I might be being harsh, but it feels a bit one dimension and wonder if there was anything more interesting.
I like the idea of Vulterous Aven but that feels pretty low power (says the person who just added junktroller).
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Junktroller is a mana too expensive, I feel. At it would be a nice roadblock, at it's too late for defensive duties, and probably too late to negate the first reanimation spell.
it would be a nice roadblock, at it's too late for defensive duties, and probably too late to negate the first reanimation spell.Junktroller is a mana too expensive, I feel. At
It depends on the speed of your environment and reanimation. I'm not playing animate dead but unburial rites and corpse dance. It's really more there to fight the large amount of flashback and other stuff. Plus being an Artifact is nice for the cards that care about that. We'll see how it goes.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I've just added Nezumi Graverobber as I wanted more graveyard removal that was more appropriate to my cube. (In fact, I went back and re-read the graveyard hate thread, and I think you suggested the Graverobber there, Grillo).
I used to be a bit hesitant of it because of the turn 3 4/2 that RBM described, but I'm wondering why I thought that was a problem now. I find the comparison between Ooze and Graverobber odd above though, as I've removed Ooze for being too independently powerful, even though it has +1/+1 counter synergies.
The card rotation thing did give one of my newer players a headache but they got it after I while. I prefer flip to DFCs.
You will probably all laugh, but I've just slotted in
Also Grillo, Stenchskipper always stuck out from your list as odd as well. It might have that interesting mini game but I wonder how fun it actually is? It's just a huge flying beater if you don't get to play the mini game. I might be being harsh, but it feels a bit one dimension and wonder if there was anything more interesting.
I like the idea of Vulterous Aven but that feels pretty low power (says the person who just added junktroller).
Thanks, I've been trying to get a feel for how that potential turn three 4/2 works out.
Originally, stenchskipper was in there because I was still somewhat trying to thematically tie decks together, so it was supposed to be a "hey, maybe you should draft R/B," but thats how a multi-color card is supposed to work.
I have liked it when its shown up. A big 5 toughness flyer is very good in the format, and its cool how its balanced by being able to hit relatively small and innocuous creatures.
I can't make fun of junktroller because its flavor text would be too crushing a rejoinder :eek:
My reasoning for the Ooze vs Graverobber decision:
- Ooze is more powerful, but I don't mind that in green. I've always found green to be the colour that was most lacking excitement and a real "hook" in both my list and many others I've encountered, so letting green have the more powerful card of the two was fine by me.
- By keeping Ooze in, I further cement green's self-rising battle biscuits/cares-about-graveyard identity.
- Black is a powerful colour, and I think the "Loner" deck is a rather boring take on it, as it's often just a way to allow one player to draft by themselves; many of the spiciest mono- tools are undesirable to just about everyone else, and while I think that's a fair decision to make if you're doing bigger drafts, I'm typically a 2 or 3 player format, so that kind of drafting isn't tolerable here. Considering this, I do what I can to incentivize black looking outside itself for more power. By giving green Ooze, black both has another reason to go (setting up Living Death by eating Villain's yard) and another reason to worry about a Green matchup (solid graveyard hate tools).
- Tying into the last point, by eliminating Graverobber, the Living Death deck becomes slightly less easy to build up by itself, which is a key point all its own to this decision. I think Living Death is fun, but it can feel a bit unfair when you can easily make the deck go off on any turn. When I still had Graverobber in, he was often a snatch-pick for that deck, setting up rather brutal late-game Living Death scenarios. That bothered me, as the late game is the point at which Living Death should become a more dramatic, risky play; a T5 Living Death backed by self-mill should have a big splash compared to a T10 Living Death, which should have to contend with Villain's reanimated dumplings. Letting black get yard-hate like Graverobber gave it more inevitability than I liked.
- That Promo Scavenging Ooze alternate art looks pretty cool (tho I do LOVE spooky rats)
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Opinions?
Also, another really neat black control card
Pick off their creatures, than lifegain them out of the game.
Also, another really neat black control card
Pick off their creatures, than lifegain them out of the game.
Crypt Incursion terrifies me - Gnaw to the Bone is already bonkers enough (though the flashback and self-enabling surely helps), and I can't imagine black really needs the effect. I also like encouraging black to look to white and green for more life gain. But, that's just my take.
Krovikan Horror gets a pass from me because I hate having to keep my graveyard in order; I'm constantly digging in mine and reorganizing it for convenience, as are my players. It's the very reason Corpse Dance has yet to appear in my list. Undead Gladiator looks like a ball, though I do wish he was a Knight instead of a Barbarian..
Krovikan Horror gets a pass from me because I hate having to keep my graveyard in order; I'm constantly digging in mine and reorganizing it for convenience, as are my players. It's the very reason Corpse Dance has yet to appear in my list. Undead Gladiator looks like a ball, though I do wish he was a Knight instead of a Barbarian..
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Besides the gy ordering issue though?
A recurring shock is pretty great in response to removal, but four mana is so clunky. I already love death spark, and all of those cards are so much cooler now with delve.
I'm not running crypt incursion, but its a pretty nice enabler for U/B control, and is neatly symmetrical with their gameplan. It and mystical teachings are cards that would get me excited about playing that deck.
A recurring shock is pretty great in response to removal, but four mana is so clunky. I already love death spark, and all of those cards are so much cooler now with delve.
I'm not running crypt incursion, but its a pretty nice enabler for U/B control, and is neatly symmetrical with their gameplan. It and mystical teachings are cards that would get me excited about playing that deck.
Krovikian Horror seems very user-unfriendly. It only triggers at end of turn in a zone that you forget about frequently AND requires you have a graveyard order. I feel it is probably going to lead to more sad moments of realising you forgot about it rather than the interesting interactions it could produce. I like Tymaret instead. Sure it is a gold card and can't hit creatures but it does relatively the same thing and it comes with 'Ah-ha' moments (like in our game) where you dig through every zone you have to see if you have anything relevent.
Undead Gladiator I had fond memories of using (must have been in an earlier version of the MTGO cube). Sure it is a bit clunky but it costed decently enough and can fit into all sorts of archetypes; Aggro for a recurring threat, Control for a card filter and reanimatior because discard. I wouldn't mid giving it a try.
For Crypt Incursion I am in the same boat as Raveborn (it is a very fancy yacht after all). I don't like to give black a straight lifegain card. It just doesn't seem like something it should have access too because the graveyard exiling is narrow enough that it shouldn't be thought of as part of the card. Black should buy time by throwing guys in the road or removing the problem, not delaying the inevitable. That is for other colours. I still think cards like this and Darkness are thematically wrong in black, but that is just my opinion.
Since we are talking about black cards, in one of my favourite commander decks (Grenzo) I have this little guy:
Since the deck is all about tokens and the graveyard he fits in quite well even if he doesn't actually do that much in commander.
I am wondering if this would be any good in cube. It seems to have a lot going for it; Sacrifice Outlet, Enables Offensive or self-mill, Human. It could even be better in the Penny Pincer cube, since decks are incentivised to run fewer lands due to the bouncelands. You may only need ~6 activations to win in that format. Heck after talking about it I might give him a run in my low-powered cube to see how he goes.
Undead Gladiator I had fond memories of using (must have been in an earlier version of the MTGO cube). Sure it is a bit clunky but it costed decently enough and can fit into all sorts of archetypes; Aggro for a recurring threat, Control for a card filter and reanimatior because discard. I wouldn't mid giving it a try.
For Crypt Incursion I am in the same boat as Raveborn (it is a very fancy yacht after all). I don't like to give black a straight lifegain card. It just doesn't seem like something it should have access too because the graveyard exiling is narrow enough that it shouldn't be thought of as part of the card. Black should buy time by throwing guys in the road or removing the problem, not delaying the inevitable. That is for other colours. I still think cards like this and Darkness are thematically wrong in black, but that is just my opinion.
Since we are talking about black cards, in one of my favourite commander decks (Grenzo) I have this little guy:
Since the deck is all about tokens and the graveyard he fits in quite well even if he doesn't actually do that much in commander.
I am wondering if this would be any good in cube. It seems to have a lot going for it; Sacrifice Outlet, Enables Offensive or self-mill, Human. It could even be better in the Penny Pincer cube, since decks are incentivised to run fewer lands due to the bouncelands. You may only need ~6 activations to win in that format. Heck after talking about it I might give him a run in my low-powered cube to see how he goes.
Undead Gladiator was a pet card of mine years back, but sadly the "during your upkeep" clause makes it a bit too bad...
You won't know your best play before the draw step usually, so investing 1B and discarding a card isn't the best deal most of the time.
If only they would print a better version of Undead Gladiator
You won't know your best play before the draw step usually, so investing 1B and discarding a card isn't the best deal most of the time.
If only they would print a better version of Undead Gladiator
Undead Gladiator was a pet card of mine years back, but sadly the "during your upkeep" clause makes it a bit too bad...
You won't know your best play before the draw step usually, so investing 1B and discarding a card isn't the best deal most of the time.
If only they would print a better version of Undead Gladiator
Hey I forgot about this card. Do you think if I just sharpied out the upkeep clause it would be good?