Low power grave cube

Aoret

Developer
This cube is one I am evolving from an older cube which had a very different ethos. The original incarnation was based on simplicity and a low barrier to entry. The new version focuses on creating a highly interactive environment using cards at a lower power level than traditional cubes.

This cube has a focus on the graveyard as a zone, as well as "card type matters". My goal is that these themes create niche archetypes which may occur, but don't need to. Currently, the cube plays pretty well in grid draft and four man draft environments. I haven't had a chance to draft with eight players yet. Each time I draft, I find the cube to be pretty fun, but feel that something is just a little off. My thought is that there are still a lot of boring, flat cards in the cube (largely as a result of being built off of an older cube rather than a fresh start). I hesitate to make grand, sweeping changes, however, because I don't want to ruin something that is basically working. Instead, I'm working on slowly eliminating boring, overpowered, and uninteractive cards. Each time I cut one, I try to replace it with something that keeps my power curve flat, and introduces cool interactions or decision points if possible.

I maintain a list of cards which I suspect need to be cut, as well as a list of card ideas I may someday include. My cut list ranges from cards that are about to be cut to cards I merely suspect may be a bit boring/overpowered/whatever. My "ideas" list ranges from cards which are about to be included to cards which are way, way too deep to ever be included in the current incarnation.

Currently, my main concern with the cube is that black feels below average in power. There are too many mediocre value dudes (particularly at the high end of the curve). I included them because they had graveyard synergies and such, but it really just isn't working the way I want it to. I'm really happy with where I have red and blue. Both do what I want them to and neither is pigeon-holed into one archetype. Red has a few different takes on aggressive strategies, ranging from straight up classic aggro, to an archetype I've deemed "batshit red" which focuses on self-discard, to a (usually izzet) archetype based around a spells-matter theme. I have found that with the lower power level of my cube, wee dragonauts and guttersnipe are cast fast enough to be relevant, assuming you draw them in your opener. The archetype is incredibly explosive when it works, but also just gets shut down by spot removal.

It is probably worthwhile to cover a few of the places where I've eschewed singleton and discuss my reasoning, as this gives a good idea of the intent of the cube in general:

These are the backbone of batshit red. If there weren't something awesome to discard to faithless looting or tibalt, the deck wouldn't work at all. These feel like they're doing the job way better than most of the madness or flashback cards.


These are the cornerstone of izzet spells-matter decks. They do the job way better than other variants.


These guys are there for blue spells-matter decks. The main uses are the izzet deck and overburden aggro decks with lots of bounce and removal.


My go-to draw spell. It loves the graveyard and it loves anything that wants spells to be cast. This layers well into spells-matter, extort, flash, and self-mill archetypes.


These guys self synergize and create a graveyard focused green deck.


These are green's premier 'ramp spell' both to counterbalance the token makes (spells that are really dudes) and to support things like splinterfright.


These have occasionally felt almost too powerful. However, I love what they do for aggressive, recursion based black aggro and I'm a bit afraid that the gravecrawler route would be even more potent. (I run the zombie tribal aggro in my other cube) At the very least, you know bloodghast is (usually) only coming out of the yard once per turn if that.


These dudes are awesome in golgari self-mill decks. Again they self-synergize and work amazingly in this aggressive archetype.


I originally had a mix of token makers, but I found that control decks were only interested in them if they were instants. Eyes is also the only card that allows me to layer the archetype directly with green token cards. On paper, the populate deck scares the hell out of me, but I've yet to see anybody dominate with the archetype and will keep the playset of eyes in until I do.


As Jason has pointed out a number of times, these guys just lead to more interesting game states than elite vanguard does. It is worth noting that I don't include any fetchlands currently, so there are very few ways to get 4-power lynxes. Harrow and sacrifice tricks with viridian emissary are basically it.


At the moment, there are a few cards still in my cubetutor list which have already been swapped out for Theros cards:
Blue sun's zenith ->curse of the swine
Hellhole flailer -> tymaret, the murder king
Ghoultree-> Nemesis of mortals
Dissipiate (one copy) -> Dissolve
 

Aoret

Developer
Thank you! My gut feeling on the Shaman when it was first spoiled was that it would be too powerful. Honestly though, it is worth a try! It is pretty mana intensive, so I guess I could see the card not being completely over the top.

I agree that Shard Phoenix lends itself to red control. I'm not opposed to the idea of supporting that archetype, but at the moment my red section is nowhere close to controllish. The other problem is the RRR mana cost; a problem shared by Violent Eruption, my only other controllish card in red.

I think the real problem with red control is sort of a philosophical/color pie problem. Red is good at killing things based on how much toughness they have. Blue is good at killing things before they become things. Black is good at killing things given arbitrary restrictions on a per-card basis. White is good at killing things regardless of pretty much anything. Generally speaking, those three colors just do the job better than red does, so I wonder if red control is just something I'd be forcing into existence just for the sake of it existing. I'm certainly open to dialog on this subject, although maybe it deserves a dedicated thread?
 

Aoret

Developer
Yeah, I'm familiar with Wildfire archetypes and I do think they can be interesting. I'm just not sure I want to include one in this cube. My issue is that while they do create something more interesting for red to do than turn guys sideways, they don't really layer with other strategies. (Or, if they do, I'm missing how!) Obviously there is some overlap with ramp, but the wildfire feels tacked on to the ramp archetype, as opposed to something varied and interesting.

Just to give an example of what I mean, in my cube, I regularly see Eyes in the Skies play out as a card in straight up token decks, but I also regularly see it as something that control decks use to flash in guys EOT when they didn't need to counter anything that turn. There are, of course, more uses than that, and probably better examples, but I hope it gives some illustration of what I mean.

As anotak mentions, I'm really not supporting red control at all, and I don't really feel that much of a need to do so. I do think red control can be cool, but again, from a philosophical/color pie point of view I don't know that red really ever does anything other than a shitty imitation of control. (Because you kill things based on hitting them for enough damage as opposed to just killing them)
 
I think the thing about red control is that it can't be like traditional Bx or Wx control, where it just removes all the things until dropping a bomb that can't be dealt with. Red control I feel like is more of a tempo game, where you're burning out their dudes while dropping your own dudes and getting extra synergy value (looking at you, Young Pyromancer and Guttersnipe!) until you can overwhelm them with virtual card advantage. I think graveyard effects (like Unearth, Flashback, etc) would be a great way to give them that, though every other color also gets it, so hm.

My Antiquities War cube has what seems like an unreasonable amount of burn spells in its red section, but I actually think that makes drafting red interesting. Burn spells are generally easy to splash, but if you have so many of them then it still becomes possible to build a burn-heavy red deck that can control the ground. Honestly, I think burn-based control is just as legitimate as most other forms of control--removal is still removal, and being unable to remove a creature just because it's got so much toughness is just as annoying as sitting there being smashed by a Sengir Vampire with a Doom Blade in hand or having your Oblivion Ring Roil'd/naturalized, etc. I know it seems basic... but if you want red control that layers with other strategies, burn spells are very universal.

As for graveyard shenanigans, I have a very tight 2-person cube with some light graveyard themes, and when Pyrewild Shaman came out I gave it a shot and man is it great! You're worried about it being too good, but I can tell you that they costed it exactly right. It's too slow to dominate games by itself, but threat of activation and being able to use it as whatever you need (3/1 dude, +3/+1, and recursion) makes it a very skill-testing and very dynamic card. I'd tell everyone to try it out in cube, ESPECIALLY if you've got a graveyard theme!
 

Aoret

Developer
Dav,

Thanks for the comment! You've actually really inspired me with the pyro & snipe comment. I can totally see how a new archetype can emerge that really just wants to kill their dudes while gaining incremental value. I already run lots of flashback and value-y stuff in Red, so maybe I can squeeze some room in there to lend a bit of direct support to this archetype. It is certainly worth a try. Further, I guess red does have one thing that the other colors don't when it comes to control: the ability to randomly win by burning the opponent out. To me, dying to fireball has always been one of the scariest aspects of Grixis control decks. I'll also give pyrewild a try. Worst case scenario he breaks a couple of games and I take him back out, right? :D

Thank you once again to everyone for challenging me on some of these concepts. I think these types of discussions (and even arguments!) are really one of the only ways to elevate our cubes to a higher level once we reach "pretty good".
 

Aoret

Developer
Did a couple grid drafts last night with a buddy. Our first decks were kinda boring: BUG delver tempo versus BW tokeny midrange. We decided to mix things up a bit and each pick a card out of my 360 before we started the grid draft process. He picked Venser, I picked Tibalt (and proceeded to draft a deck with the loosest Tibalt inclusion ever...)

The decks:

Jund Planeswalkers











Edit: dunno what is up with this second cubedeck, but it contained:
Bant Ass Venser Ones
Brainstorm
Chimeric Mass

Twos
Merfolk Looter
Augur of Bolas
Into the Roil
Mistmeadow Witch
Wall of Omens

Threes
Niblis of the Mist
Stonecloaker
Oblivion Ring
Kor Hookmaster
Civilized Scholar
Loaming Shaman
Lyev Skynight
Chromatic Lantern

Fours
Conundrum Sphinx
Nevermaker
Glimmerpoint Stag
Jace, Architect of Thought

Fives
Precursor Golem
Acidic Slime
Venser, the Sojourner

Lands
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Forest
5 Plains
4 Island

Bant Ass Venser

































I'm not sure if it was the decks, or because we were playing straight after work, or because it was our second grid draft of the night, or what, but we were both having a hell of a time making correct decisions in these games! I guess that just goes back to "the purpose of cube is to make good players make mistakes." Maybe it was because almost half of the cards in my deck were planewalkers or something, but every time I drew a card I felt like I instantly had choose from like 10+ different lines of play.

In one game, I was sitting at a precariously low life total with a cluttered board. He had a Precursor Golem (w/ buddy tokens), and Jace, Architect of Thought on like 6 or so. I had a pair of flipped Reckless Waifs, a Rakdos Guildmage, and a Puppeteer Clique on board with six land. He had all the inevitability in the world (I was dead to Venser if he drew it) and was basically biding his time. I drew Crippling Fatigue which was sweet! ...until I realized that I only had two black mana. In a flash of insight, I discarded the fatigue to my guildmage, -2/-2 'ing his real golem. I figured I could get his real golem with the flashback, and at least get Jace or the golems with my team. While the guildmage's ability was on the stack, my buddy Stonecloaker's his Golem, and targets my Fatigue for graveyard removal. ".....oh."
 
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