Card/Deck Low power removal that is fun to play

Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

So I didn't really know if there was a place to post these kinds of "groupings of cards" so I'm just making a new one.




I had these lying on my desk and it got me thinking about Shadows over Innistrad draft and how a bit more restrictive removal can help promote a synergy oriented format that rewards you building "decks" rather than piles of cards.

Dead weight is a delirium / enchantment-stuff enabler of sorts, executioner's capsule as well and probably the one that is a little stronger and versatile as more cards care about artifacts. Fiery conclusion feels like a good pairing with Aristocrat style decks, or doing the act of treason + sac outlet interaction. Geistblast of course has already been on people's radars as a fun dual shock / fork.

What's peoples experience with toning down the power level of removal to try to make room for some more synergy oriented removal that is situationally good?

Quick tl;dr blurb why I want to know about low power removal:
  • It gives room for combat tricks to be decisive in combat
  • You need to draft cards that use synergy to bring up the value of the removal
  • With less cheap answers you can have decks that build synergy with a board state (ie selfmilling and demonic tutoring with epitaph golem and an empty library or ghostly flickering your archaeomancer and etb creature)
 
whydirt

whydirt

I think there are a couple different axes to view power of removal:
  • Instant vs. sorcery
  • Narrowness of target
  • Total costs (generally just CMC, but things like discarding for Lightning Axe or the sacrifice for Angelic Purge also count here)
In general, I try to make each removal spell good along one of these lines while restrained to being on the bad end on the others. Doom Blade basically is great along all three axes in limited as the non-black clause only matters in certain matchups and even then is generally not super restrictive.

Narrowness can be further broken down into what I label as vertical (Lightning Strike, Silkwrap, etc) and horizontal axes (Plummet, Kill Shot, etc). As a general rule, vertically narrow removal can almost always find a good target against most creature decks, while horizontal narrowness often means a card will flow to a certain drafter or may just be a sideboard coard. Exceptions certainly exist - Dual Shot generally plays like a vertically narrow card, for example.
 
Z

Zig13

I'm personally a fan of how Limited removal has got worse in recent years and aim to recreate the resulting feel in my cube. I think the power level I am aiming for is a little lower than the OP and I don't think all my inclusions meet the fun to play criteria but here are some of the better ones:

 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

I'm right in the process of lowering the power of my removal. It is very important to me that all the removal spells are comparable in power level.
For example, Doom Blade, Go for the Throat, Ultimate Price, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Journey to Nowhere, Terror, Murderous Compulsion, Swift Reckoning and even Murder are too strong, while Slash of Talons, Terashi's Verdict, Vanquish, Cradle to Grave, Disembowel and the likes are way too weak.

There are also a lot of cards that are on the edge, and I find it very difficult to build a fitting removal suite for the average riptidian cube (I guess mine could be called such). So, what I want you to do is discussing hard removal. As people here tend to play 'die'-effects (Keiga, the Tide Star, Youthful Scholar, Pelakka Wurm) or cards that are playable from the grave, I'd say that exile-removal should be evaluated differently when looking at comparable removal counterparts, which leads me to my first example which gives me a logical headache:

vs
vs

In my opinion, we have some great pieces of removal here. Smother and Push are cheap removal spells that come at instant speed but aren't able to kill big threats.
To me, this seems perfectly balanced. The question here is: is Fatal Push better most of the time while costing 1 less? We all love cards that have some play to them, Morbid and Revolt are perfect examples. But if it's too easy to trigger while the mana cost is as low as Push's, we need to overthink the actual strength of the card.

Comparing Smother to Silkwrap is the reason why I actually started to overthink my removal suite. Having outs to cards like Gravecrawler and the likes seems important to me, and Pillar of Flames and Incendiary Flow don't seem to be enough. But Smother comes at instant speed and, if you don't need to exile the creature, doesn't give your opponent the opportunity to bring the removed creature back to game by having enchantment removal.

Those are just examples, maybe some of you would like to share their thoughts and experiences. To give the discussion some more fuel, I'm just going to leave some pictures of black and white removal cards here that I find quite interesting and very discussion-worthy:









 
ravnic

ravnic

I like it to have games not to come down to having an answer to a single threat or not. So, whil I cut the super premium removal like Swords to Plowshares and I could see me lowering the power level a little further, I prefer my removal spells to hit as many targets as possible. With more narrow kill spells like Reprisal, Plummet or Searing Light, players tend to fire them off as soon as they see a somewhat decent target.

With more flexible kill spells like Murder or Faith's Fetters, you have to evaluate the worth of casting them on a certain target. My approach is, to have the number of removal spells a little bit lower than most cubes, so deck with tons of removal aren't as common, and it encourages the players to think more, on which permanent they are spending their Banishing Light.
 
Aston

Aston

I'm surprised to see Murderous Cut on your low power list, as I would rate that comparably to Doom Blade/Ultimate Price/Go for the Throat, or maybe even ahead and on par with Swords to Plowshares. It has no restriction on what it can target and delve gives a lot of flexibility on cost.
 
James Stevenson

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
Where did that thread go where people were discussing darkblast? People were very positive about it, but I've never heard anyone interested in Flame Jab. Is that because dredging 3 is so much better for graveyard synergies? Or is discarding a land a much higher cost?
 
VincePendrell

VincePendrell

James Stevenson said:
Where did that thread go where people were discussing darkblast? People were very positive about it, but I've never heard anyone interested in Flame Jab. Is that because dredging 3 is so much better for graveyard synergies? Or is discarding a land a much higher cost?
Click to expand...

I really like Flame Jab. It's not much a removal spell, but more of an engine piece for Young Pyromancer and Prowess triggers. If you are on a power level that allows Iterative Analysis, it's a really good card to name. Plus, it fits the Life from the Loam decks that everyone knows and love. (and the Terravore/Countryside Crusher that no one ever drafted when I supported it in my list :( )



As for other types of removal, I have a different view on what I add or not to my cube: I'm fine with removal hitting the most amount of creatures possible at the cheapest mana cost available, but I don't want removal that gives card advantage and gain life. I'd rather have a creature eat a Swords to Plowshares or a Path to Exile, then a Faith's Fetter because of how much of a tempo gain it is. I'm saying this from a higher power level than most cubes here, but even in higher level environments that I ran in the past, card advantage removal and tempo advantage removal is at a premium. For lower power level environments, I can imagine these cards are better than most creatures, and get players into optimizing their picks and decks to run these cards, ending up with more midrange goodstuff. Personally, I'd not rank a removal spell as being high power if it is just able to trade up in mana. When Maelstrom Pulse¹ kills a single creature, it isn't doing anything different than Asphyxiate or Assassinate, but when Ribbons of Night does it's thing, oh boy!

Besides that, I run these two cards that are fairly low in power, and could fit most people's cubes:

Even though they are very much lacking in synergies and high i drawback, they can hit any type of permanent, and always stay in the pack for the last picks. The guys at Wizards have said many times² that it is important to have a few removal spells that go late in draft, so the players that didn't pick any don't insta-lose to any bomb creature the opponents got, and I think that it pays to have these as permanent removal³ in cube, since it helps to contain any artifact or enchantment from running amok as well.


Footnotes:
¹ I'm disconsidering the versatility of the card as a pick here. I know that the upside of Pulse is massive, but in a creature vs creature matchup, it's going to be a Murder 90% of the time.
² I'm too lazy to look for it now, but they might repeat it whenever they talk about crappy removal spells.
³ ...or Pithing Needle. Pithing Needleis always useful!
 
GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12



I really like Set Adrift; in a slow graveyard format, Delve cards have to be pretty weak to be fair. It answers almost anything, often for U, but they get to recast it next turn; think of it as a 1-4 mana bounce spell that isn't card disadvantage. A fun play is to cast Adrift, then mill their threat away with Thought Scour or use a shuffle effect like Krosan Reclamation.

Brainspoil is usually just solid removal, but has a fun situational tutor mode that provides a discard trigger. It's cool with Mnemonic Wall, as essentially a mana sink that nets you a 0/4 or recovers an important spell.

Compulsory Rest is great when you're looking for a weaker Pacifism effect, and if you want your removal to be more graveyard-friendly it's a good option. Besides, mana sinks are a foolproof way to improve game quality.
 
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