General [Lucky Paper] When Trivia Beats Strategy

I think being able to leverage the less immediately apparent parts of the game to do cool plays is pretty fun. There are certainly limits, and I wouldn't want Sharuum + Sculpting Steel to be a combo deck in my cube, but I kind of find the Fiend Hunter wording to be more of a feature than a bug. You only get bamboozled by it because you mentally shortcut the card's effect, but mechanically it's quite basic and teaches good fundamental rules understanding.
How many instants does a player have to memorize before they are able to counterplay into open mana?
Somewhere in the 130-150 range I think if wotc weren't so sheepish about printing sufficiently appealing ones.
I don't really feel like this belongs here. Sure, having to play around instants increases the cognitive load of things you need to consider, but that's also true of sweepers, discard spells, haste creatures, sorcery speed creature interaction, potential combo enablers, and relative to your own answers, the threats your opponents can use. What is a game of magic if not weighing your options in the face of uncertainty. Instants just make the consequence immediately apparent. Besides, they are the coolest part of magic.
How many combos are more obvious on Wikipedia than they are mid-draft? Those are candidates to cut or nerf.
I don't know entirely what this means, and as mentioned I wouldn't recommend having combos that inherently require a deep rules understanding to pull off, but if you have subtle interactions that you might not realize until you're faced with it in a game I think that makes the prospect of drafting more times a lot more appealing. As long as you can reasonably navigate a draft and be opinionated about your picks I don't think your format suffers from having something like Yorion + Animate Dead as a potential combo. Setting aside that Animate Dead in itself is a bit of a complexity nightmare, and I am consciously playing it and LED in spite of it. I have a "complicated" tag I use on cubecobra (when I remember) to try and be conscious of cards I expect to cause rules questions or just take a really long time to read and parse, and on that note, I would like to nominate Read Ahead as one of the all time worst cube mechanics wrt this topic.

Somewhat related, but I went through the effort to remove any mentions of planeswalkers (that I found) in the text of my cards, because my environment doesn't feature them, plus some other things I considered noise like partner text, and a part of me wonders if I'm doing my players a disservice by potentially duping them into thinking the real cards do something else than what they actually do.
 
on that note, I would like to nominate Read Ahead as one of the all time worst cube mechanics wrt this topic.
I disagree with this, not because it's not a complicated mechanic (it is) but because the general idea of "this is a story and you can Read Ahead at the start of it" is surprisingly intuitive. There's not that many mechanics where the flavor does enough lifting to get complimented by me like that - flying is the all-timer, because nobody even think of it as complicated to the point where you'll look at art and be like "yeah, that thing flies" - and it really does help the mental load a lot.
 
Great article! I think Magic is so complex a game that it would be hard (i.e. very intentional) to sand off all the weird edges, but definitely agree with the premise that avoiding complex/one-off abilities like Regenerate or Protection is a good idea, and that you should think carefully about your audience before using foreign/full art/non-oracle versions of cards (as sweet as they might be!).

It's all part of managing the complexity budget, but taking into account the cube as a whole experience, not just how many words are on cards.
 
I disagree with this, not because it's not a complicated mechanic (it is) but because the general idea of "this is a story and you can Read Ahead at the start of it" is surprisingly intuitive. There's not that many mechanics where the flavor does enough lifting to get complimented by me like that - flying is the all-timer, because nobody even think of it as complicated to the point where you'll look at art and be like "yeah, that thing flies" - and it really does help the mental load a lot.
I don't dislike the actual mechanic, just how it's impossible to tell that a saga has the mechanic unless you specifically read the saga reminder text for some reason. It needs way better visual cues.
 
Good read.

Damage spells with "damage to any target" wording are exactly what I look for. Why is that confusing?
 

landofMordor

Administrator
Good read.

Damage spells with "damage to any target" wording are exactly what I look for. Why is that confusing?
It’s the pre-errata (“to target creature or player”) that can be confusing. That erratum was six years ago and many of my group’s drafters are younger in Magic than that, lol
 

landofMordor

Administrator
I think being able to leverage the less immediately apparent parts of the game to do cool plays is pretty fun. There are certainly limits, and I wouldn't want Sharuum + Sculpting Steel to be a combo deck in my cube, but I kind of find the Fiend Hunter wording to be more of a feature than a bug. You only get bamboozled by it because you mentally shortcut the card's effect, but mechanically it's quite basic and teaches good fundamental rules understanding.

Somewhere in the 130-150 range I think if wotc weren't so sheepish about printing sufficiently appealing ones.
I don't really feel like this belongs here. Sure, having to play around instants increases the cognitive load of things you need to consider, but that's also true of sweepers, discard spells, haste creatures, sorcery speed creature interaction, potential combo enablers, and relative to your own answers, the threats your opponents can use. What is a game of magic if not weighing your options in the face of uncertainty. Instants just make the consequence immediately apparent. Besides, they are the coolest part of magic.

I don't know entirely what this means, and as mentioned I wouldn't recommend having combos that inherently require a deep rules understanding to pull off, but if you have subtle interactions that you might not realize until you're faced with it in a game I think that makes the prospect of drafting more times a lot more appealing. As long as you can reasonably navigate a draft and be opinionated about your picks I don't think your format suffers from having something like Yorion + Animate Dead as a potential combo. Setting aside that Animate Dead in itself is a bit of a complexity nightmare, and I am consciously playing it and LED in spite of it. I have a "complicated" tag I use on cubecobra (when I remember) to try and be conscious of cards I expect to cause rules questions or just take a really long time to read and parse, and on that note, I would like to nominate Read Ahead as one of the all time worst cube mechanics wrt this topic.

Somewhat related, but I went through the effort to remove any mentions of planeswalkers (that I found) in the text of my cards, because my environment doesn't feature them, plus some other things I considered noise like partner text, and a part of me wonders if I'm doing my players a disservice by potentially duping them into thinking the real cards do something else than what they actually do.
Totally fine to disagree with my specific examples, as it’s group-dependent. If your cube is “a retirement home for former spikes,” as somebody on Discord put it, then maybe the things they find complex rules-wise aren’t stack shenanigans, but rather The Initiative’s lack of reminder text (what’s Goad do again?).

what I hope my examples do is illustrate the *stakes* of rules trivia: they can be the difference between an discouraging loss and a fun one; they can cause friction between your players; and they just don’t add very much depth relative to the confusion they cause.
 
Somewhat related, but I went through the effort to remove any mentions of planeswalkers (that I found) in the text of my cards, because my environment doesn't feature them, plus some other things I considered noise like partner text, and a part of me wonders if I'm doing my players a disservice by potentially duping them into thinking the real cards do something else than what they actually do.
Since my whole cube is proxied, I've done this too. I removed any trinket text, partners, etc. I have similar concerns but at the same time, it feels like WOTC is less concerned than we are. Like so many text erratas on cards have happened over the years and I recently saw a reddit post about a Secret Lair drop which released un-errata'd versions of previosly errat'd cards. So I don't lose any sleep over it, honestly.
 
definitely agree with the premise that avoiding complex/one-off abilities like Regenerate or Protection is a good idea
Post your favorite card that you're mad about one too many abilities on
Mine is Tourach, Dread Cantor cause about once a year I am like oh, that exists, I should try it, go to add it, then see the "Protection from white" and go "no, fuck it" (or Sword of Fire and Ice but at least I know what I'm getting into if I think about that one)
If your cube is “a retirement home for former spikes,” as somebody on Discord put it
...do we need a subtitle for this entire site?
 
Background and Partner ...



I decided to try Erinis now and I'll probably do an alter where I draw some rocks or stuff covering the unnecessary clause at the bottom. Still annoying that I am forced to.
 
Post your favorite card that you're mad about one too many abilities on
It's not in the same spirit as the abilities you mentioned are but there are quite a few cool cards that would be perfect for my cube with one ability less (I think this is also part of the commander syndrome of enabler and payoff on the same card).

The card I think most often about in this regard is:


I would love any combination of two abilities in this card:
Karnstruct + mana generation
Karnstruct + card advantage
Mama generation + card advantage

Though I do like the Karnstruct the best.
 
(or Sword of Fire and Ice but at least I know what I'm getting into if I think about that one)
My solution:
PeHbVSY.jpeg
 
10 years ago, i would've agreed heavily with the original post

but as i've grown as a person, seen a lot of things, my opinions have changed some to be a bit more nuanced. while i think a lot of the knowledge checks involved in a lot of games (like magic) often can have all of the drawbacks you mentioned, there's a lot of positive to them.

so, competitive games (using a loose definition here, doesn't have to be tournaments) are hard. like really hard. almost always, the deep longterm difficulty in competitive games comes from situations with a lot of nuance, counterplay, emergent complexity, so on. these situations are NOT what the post terms "trivia" or "trivia checks", though i dislike how negative that name is, so i'll borrow the fighting game term "tech" instead. i think we're in agreement that the truly difficult choices in a game like magic is in those moments when tech is not the deciding factor.

those deep skills are very difficult, things like how or when to attack or block or sequencing or playing around cards. and those on a meta-level even deeper, are very hard to even understand or see at all. they're certainly very hard to talk about, and despite the wealth of writing about magic strategy, very little of that writing is actually particularly deep. and i don't know how it could be, it's real hard to put the deeper stuff into words.

however, losing to that deeper stuff if you're a new player actually really sucks, but it sucks in a way the new player lacks the vocabulary to even articulate. there is no weird tech to point to. when out-strategized, the new player often loses just feeling helpless because there is nothing obvious to learn about. it's often not really *clear* that that's what happened, because the player doesn't even have the skills to see the differences yet. and, also, importantly, people don't like to admit to themselves that this is what happened, because it hurts emotionally.

on the other hand, learning tech gives you something to latch onto as a new player, as someone unfamiliar with a format or game. it lets you focus on things that are *actually* quite simple in comparison to that hard stuff, the strategy. it lets you grow and learn the strategy passively in the background, while your conscious mind focuses on the tech.

there's also an emotional benefit to that experience of learning and mastering tech. the oblivion ring trick might be old news to me and you, but i also remember the first time i learned it, and the first time i showed it to many new players. and it was like an "oh neat! i understand something about this game!" moment.

tech also gives emotional texture to a game. i wish i knew how to put more words to this idea here, to explain it fully, because i think this is one of the most important things about tech. so just writing that first sentence does not feel like it does it justice. but i don't know how to explain further.

the article makes the assumption that strategy is the only type of skill. however, learning, studying, and remembering tech is a skill. not everyone is equally good at it, just as not everyone is equally good at strategy. the post mentions
If a nearby judge or rules reference would reveal a clearly (in)correct play,
but judges are people who trained to be judges. interpreting a reference is also a skill. you might make the argument that it's not a particularly interesting skill for a game of magic: the gathering, or not the skill you enjoy or wish to encourage. but that's a very different statement than it not being a skill at all. and that's the second assumption, which is just that it's not an interesting skill but it's worth remembering that people who have this skill (and not strategy) may be people who will play your cube.

the skill's also not always about memorization, even if it often might be in the common case. i mentioned i remember learning about oblivion ring. the way i learned it was reading the card. i was new during shards of alara, and i saw the card looking through my friend's deckbox, and i immediately asked "hey, can you look at this, does this work this way?" and my friend said yes. i got this right because i understood the rules, i understood the consequences of putting the rules together. and at the time it gave me a little bit of delight that i understood this system. this is a skill, because nobody can or will memorize everything. i also remember this moment because this was one of my earliest positive experiences with the game.

tech keeps the game from being something you ever feel like you can fully hold in your head. tech is something that lets anyone, no matter how actually good or bad at the strategy, find some weird interaction that lets them break the game maybe. in practice, a lot of it gets figured out and shared. but the fact that it's there, gives a sort of hope to so many people.

the negative experiences with tech are not even always a just drawback that pay for the positives i'm listing. sometimes some negative experiences can be good for your game overall. i hope people can understand this given we play the game with the mana system it does.

i was away from magic for a few years and i got into competitive quakeworld and i learned a great many things that were tech and not (for example) strategy, and i treasure a lot of those memories just as much as i treasure learning about the strategy. i treasure that stuff about fighting games, i treasure that stuff about starcraft: brood war, and so on. i've designed a lot of games and mods for games over the years, and seen a lot of people react to them. i think that this tech stuff is legitimately good, just in the right dosage, in the right places.

in my opinion nothing worth doing or enjoying is perfectly elegant. in my experience, other people react in a way that makes me think it is true for most people, even if they don't say so. the real world isn't elegant, and games are, while not simulations, something that connects in some way to that exprience of the real world.
 

landofMordor

Administrator
Appreciate the response!

You bring up several finer points which the article couldn’t get into for 1) length and 2) why bother restating the status quo to an audience of ultra-invested cube designers. I generally agree, and I believe the core of the article is in the same spirit as your post. To wit:

Magic is complex enough to exceed every playgroup’s bullshit meter, if the cube designer is too indulgent. It’s possible to lose games of Magic and still have fun and want to return next week — but the odds of that are worse if the loser was also overwhelmed with complexity, or if a judge had to get involved to explain exactly how they lost. Asterisk: Your group’s bullshit meter may be more or less sensitive.

Where we may differ: my group doesn’t have judges among our players. We do have plenty of folks who love Magic and don’t know the difference between gold and hybrid. If they get discouraged due to rules even I don’t understand, then I can’t grow my playgroup — and that’s a crying shame because Cube is sick as hell. (Not to mention, without new players, who will the grognards get to fool with their O-Ring tech?)
 

landofMordor

Administrator
Internet cube veteran: I haven’t drafted a full pod in years, how do you cube every week IRL with 16+ players?

Diogenes the cubist: Well, just design to create fun.

Veteran: I do! We like competitive magic. Here is my cube overview and my archetype signposts (foreign altered). Back on the PT, people were dying to play this.

Diogenes: Well there’s your problem! Try taking prisoners — they are more likely to come back next week.


(Just trying to humorously illustrate who I aimed this article towards. Growing the playgroup is harder than designing the cube, and Cube’s history as the retirement home for PT winners sometimes doesn’t do it favors.)
 
Top