Card/Deck Madness Theme

Diakonov

Diakonov

Hey guys, I don't have time at the moment to do an extensive write-up but I'm looking for ideas for making Madness work in Cube. How intense would the power level have to be, what else does it overlap nicely with, etc. I also plan to make "graveyard matters" more of a theme in my cube, which obviously goes well with that.

I'm thinking maybe multiple Wild Mongrels, Basking Rootwallas, Circular Logics, and so forth. Is Arrogant Wurm strong enough?
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I had some disillusions about Madness possibly being good and in alt-standard we have actual madness decks buildable that are super focused and they're still kind of shit, so I'm not so sure.
 
shamizy

shamizy

Tibalt without random is a free loot every turn and he becomes instantly playable. He'd be amazing in so many archetypes. Red getting that sort of card filtering would be great. I mean, I don't play with custom cards or anything, but those of you that do should totally try it out and let us know how good Tibbers is without the random discard.
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Yeah, I'm not afraid that he's unplayable. . .

I never pulled the trigger on this change before, but after Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy was printed it actually seems relatively comparable: they are both two mana looters that scale into other effects that give a strong advantage later if they aren't dealt with. Buffed Tibalt has haste which is really good, but the value of his -4 diminishes as the game goes on (and the -6 is really hard to reach). Jace is just good all the time, but takes a turn to get started.

The other red looter I was looking at was an edit of Kris Mage. This one would be {1}{R} and activate for {R} to do 2 damage. So, its a red merfolk looter that can only draw shock (and has to play it immediately). I ran it as a 0/1 for {R} before and it was extremely good, so I think this nudge is in the correct direction.
 
safra

safra

Jason Waddell said:
Bump. Does this theme have more meat now?
Click to expand...

It feels like I'm just a few more good uncommons or rares away from dedicating real space to it as part of a graveyard aggro theme. Asylum Visitor, Stromkirk Mystic, Avacyn's Judgment, Blast from the Past, I guess From Under the Floorboards, pooooosssssibly Bloodhall Priest as a 3 mana 4/4 with trinket text. That's not an inspiring number of cards. I really want to cube Big Game Hunter but it sucked the last time I tried without real support. If Madness is a reasonable incidental bonus I can see it working; I might also errata it to a 2/2 or something.

So I don't think it has enough, but if we get more cards it'll be one of the major pieces of my graveyard aggro shell.
 
shamizy

shamizy

I feel like it's two cards away from being a legitimate archetype you can support. There are more than enough BR enablers right now, just not enough payoffs in a higher powered environment. I think you could definitely deploy it if your power level isn't all that high though.
 
safra

safra

shamizy said:
I feel like it's two cards away from being a legitimate archetype you can support. There are more than enough BR enablers right now, just not enough payoffs in a higher powered environment. I think you could definitely deploy it if your power level isn't all that high though.
Click to expand...

Speaking of: what are our favourite enablers? Mine are the Lilianas (otV, Defiant Necromancer) first and foremost, but then it gets a little trickier.

Lilianae Vesses
looters (incl Faithless)
discard as additional cost: Lightning Axe, Heir of Falkenrath, Lotleth Troll...
spellshapers (new zombie, Jaya Ballard, Pack Rat)

honorable mention to Chain of Smog, which never really worked out when I tried it

What am I missing here?
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
There is probably enough to treat discard for value the same as sacrifice for value though, no? There might be a focused deck there, but difficult to see atm because this is all new territory.
 
GiftsForgiven

GiftsForgiven

I'm pretty sure that in general, wotc's development have been very careful with madness so far in these sets. It was previously cited as an 'unlikely to return' mechanic based on power level, and I am sure they felt they were forced into adding the mechanic in this block for flavor reasons, etc. That being said, in a lower power cube where the spicy commons/uncommons can really shine, it could be super fun! I'm currently waiting for the rest of the eldritch moon spoilers so I can really get started on the Innistrad cube I've been toying with, and madness seems great for it so far.
 
Diakonov

Diakonov

My experience with enablers is that they really ought to be cheap, and something you can activate for free anytime.

If the theme is to be in black/red, this is all I can really think of without bringing down the power level a lot.



Other cards might get the job done, but you need a certain threshold of these reliable enablers for the whole theme to work, I think.
 
shamizy

shamizy

Looking through my own list, I have the following cards that let me pitch cards:



Far more discard effects than I had initially thought, some are obviously better enablers than others. I'm just not sure if there are enough Madness cards currently available to really push it as an archetype. There just aren't enough cards good on their own, most of them NEED to be played for Madness to be decent.

I'm pretty happy with how all of the listed cards above have played in my drafts, and that's without a single Madness card in my current list. I'll probably be changing that soon since we've gotten two sweet enablers in black that are not embarrassing at all:

cryptbreaker.jpg
collectivebrutality.jpg


It's probably just better to focus upon graveyard-centric strategies with Madness contributing cool cards that allow for tech-y plays while having decent baselines (like Asylum Visitor). Might as well take a look at other stuff that helps push graveyard manipulation further without going too deep.

Things you actually want to pitch into the grave/don't mind:


Cards that can turn trash into powerful effects:


Cards that can rebuy or return stuff that you looted away earlier:


Cards you can recast from the graveyard:


TLDR; If you have enough of these effects to employ alongside Madness cards I think it's worth trying out since they'll slot in well enough with cards that already do work in most cubes. Employing it as a standalone theme centered in like RB or Grixis is probably only viable in lower powered cubes at the moment, can change with like another two good cards spoiled by the end of the week.
 
sigh

sigh

Shamizy's approach is the real deal when it comes to themes and stuff. You can't just jam something into a format in a vacuum, you've gotta provide it a network of incidental support, backup plans, secondary things to be doing. Great post.
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Seriously though, I just went 3 - 0 in the 8-player draft, and every time I drew Ruinator it was an all-star. I had 10 creatures in my deck, a couple looting effects, and it was regularly cast twice out of the yard. One game I didn't even care if they board-wiped, because it would just give me my Ruinator back.
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I've been running ruinator for years, except for the two weeks when he got eaten by the vacuum and I had to get a new one. That card is completely legit. Just run it straight in decks that throw things out incidentally. You don't need unearth, pod, or huge creature counts, just a deck that can churn 6 creatures into the graveyard over the course of a long game.
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Oh, I played with my paper cube today with my girlfriend. Played a mono black deck with this guy:


Forgot how great it is in a zombie/sac deck. Putting it here to remind myself.
 
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