Card/Deck [MCD] Cards that create Subgames!

[LordOfTexas]

First off, let's establish what I am NOT talking about:

Shaharazad
Goblin Game
Cabal Therapy

These cards are what I call minigames - a minigame has a start, a finish, and involves forced interaction.

The cards I want to talk about today are Subgame Creators. When a Subgame Creator shows its face, it creates a sub-objective for both players inside of the larger game. When either player dedicates resources and actions towards "winning" the subobjective, they are doing so in hopes of a payoff. But, the biggest difference between subgames and minigames is that players can choose to ignore subgames.

The classic example of a Subgame is when a relevant planeswalker hits the field. Immediately, the opposing player must make a choice - can I afford to let the opponent "win the subgame" by ticking up their walker unopposed? Or, do I need to play the subgame and kill the walker, so I can get back to the business of killing the opponent?

Why include Subgame Creators in my cube?
- They encourage different styles of play
- They create interesting and tense decisions - do I ignore the subgame or play along?
- They create chances for minor victories, so even the losing player can often feel like they accomplished something - "I may have lost, but at least I nuked your stupid Karn!"*

*Fake editors note: Karn can never die

Non-planeswalker examples of Subgame Creators:

Dross Harvester - Gotta feed the beast! The opponent has an opportunity to cut off the Harvester's food supply, so it eats its controller instead!

Living End - Everyone races to fill their graveyard and empty the opponents!

Restore Balance - make sure our resources are where you want them!

Use this thread to list any Subgame Creators you run in your cube, suggest ideas that I didn't mention here, or tell us fun subgames you've witnessed in any format of Magic!

 

[Jason Waddell]

Gravecrawler creates a very interesting "zombie management" subgame. Sometimes you have to hold your kill spells until you can completely wipe the board of zombies.

 

[Dom Harvey]

Cards which make you skip your draw step in exchange for a very powerful effect, like Necropotence/Yawgmoth's Bargain/Dragon Appeasement.

 

[LordOfTexas]

I think those cards are solid suggestions Dom, but I don't really think of them as creating subgames.

Subgames to me include:

1 - Methods for both players to interact and make decisions in the subgame
2 - Clear objectives for both players, along with payoffs and penalties for winning/losing the subgame
3 - The option to ignore the subgame
4 - Interactions and decisions that are different from normal gameplay
Cards that fulfill this criteria lead to really fun gamestates, imo.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Land's Edge?

 

[CML]

http://magiccards.info/query?q=t:sphinx&v=card&s=cname

creating nested subgames that eventually turn into the regular game is a new obsession of mine

 

[tomchaps]

I've enjoyed the Shrine of Burning Rage/Shrine of Loyal Legions subgame (if they meet the technical definition used here). The visible, slow mounting of pressure distorts all other game play decisions until they finally draw a shatter effect or go off.

In a similar fashion, Greater Gargadonoffers a ticking-bomb/looming-threat subgame that nicely distorts the typical flow of a game.

I've just added Windbrisk Heightsin for testing, and that is definitely a subgame that both sides can choose to reach for (or expend resources to stop) or ignore.

I'm also retesting Rivalry, which creates a subgame similar to Weathered Wayfarer--do I just play the land and face the consequences, or do I hold back?

The planeswalker subgame feels like such a normal part of gameplay now that I hadn't really considered it as a subgame--it feels as much a part of figuring out the best play as calculating combat math.

 

[CML]

phthisis?

 

[LordOfTexas]

I've enjoyed the Shrine of Burning Rage/Shrine of Loyal Legions subgame (if they meet the technical definition used here). The visible, slow mounting of pressure distorts all other game play decisions until they finally draw a shatter effect or go off.

In a similar fashion, Greater Gargadonoffers a ticking-bomb/looming-threat subgame that nicely distorts the typical flow of a game.

I've just added Windbrisk Heightsin for testing, and that is definitely a subgame that both sides can choose to reach for (or expend resources to stop) or ignore.

I'm also retesting Rivalry, which creates a subgame similar to Weathered Wayfarer--do I just play the land and face the consequences, or do I hold back?

The planeswalker subgame feels like such a normal part of gameplay now that I hadn't really considered it as a subgame--it feels as much a part of figuring out the best play as calculating combat math.

Awesome suggestions. I wouldn't consider the Shrines or Gargadon as creating subgames, since it's pretty hard for the opponent to interact in a meaningful way.

Windbrisk Heights - DING! This is exactly the type of card I'm looking for. A clear objective, methods for both players to interact in the subgame, the choice to ignore the subgame, and divergent gameplay (the Heights player may make a bad attack to activate the Heights, and the opposing player might kill a creature they otherwise wouldn't to prevent the activation.) Mosswort Bridge has many similarities to Heights, although the rest of the Hideaway lands aren't interactive enough to fit.

Rivalry is a sweet suggestion - definitely makes for interesting decisions and divergent gameplay.

I hear you on the planeswalker subgame being "normal gameplay" in Cubes at this point - they were mainly used as an example, although they can still lead to interesting gameplay.

 

[CML]

i mean, all cards should do this to some extent, shouldn't they?

some of my favorite cards that make a metaphorical subgame, which are exactly the same as my favorite cube cards, are
gifts ungiven
mayor of avabruck
survival of the fittest
stinkweed imp
phyrexian revoker

tutors are traditionally the most skill-testing cards in constructed mtg. after that you get 'name a card' effects and it's a damn shame cabal therapy, which is THE BEST MAGIC DESIGN OF ALL TIME (and it's not all that close), isn't cubeable. these are followed by dudes with several activated abilities

 

[LordOfTexas]

i mean, all cards should do this to some extent, shouldn't they?

If you stick to the qualities I listed in my second post, not really. Also, it's not a true/false distinction - some subgame creators are more playstyle-warping than others.

some of my favorite cards that make a metaphorical subgame, which are exactly the same as my favorite cube cards, are
gifts ungiven
mayor of avabruck
survival of the fittest
stinkweed imp
phyrexian revoker

tutors are traditionally the most skill-testing cards in constructed mtg. after that you get 'name a card' effects and it's a damn shame cabal therapy, which is THE BEST MAGIC DESIGN OF ALL TIME (and it's not all that close), isn't cubeable. these are followed by dudes with several activated abilities

Werewolves are another great example of a subgame, although lower impact than others. And FWIW, the custom cube I'm working on has two copies of Cabal Therapy,and I expect it to be really good (and fun).

 

[CML]

meh, i think therapy's the perfect card for a well-defined and somewhat slow-changing metagame as legacy. with all the one-ofs in vintage i expect it would be bad there as here.

i initially skipped over your definition because sometimes i'm lazy. i think it is a great definition. here's a bit of theory that you guys might enjoy:

oddly enough, this afternoon i came across a characteristically infuriating facebook post from zac hill: "Whenever I play Bant Hexproof, my opponents always talk about how noninteractive the gameplay is and then proceed to make like four major mistakes that lose them the match." He then elaborated: I guess I don't know what 'interaction' is if not 'the capacity for player decisions to decide the outcome of games'.

Because i want to think zac is not an idiot even in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, i wrote an actual reply:
Zac -- interaction is a subset of decision-making. It's also usually the psychologically richest i.e. "does he have a Stifle?" has more scope for L0+ thinking than "oh boy t2 Geist," and tending towards the former is what makes MtG a great game. You're more right than the whiner, though. Another analogy is that your subtle misconception is to interaction what his is to a L0 blunder.

now the passive-aggressive, pseudo-humble agnosticism of "i guess i don't know" is horseshit enough in itself, and of course zac will not reply because then he'd have to acknowledge that he in fact is not the smartest person in his thread, and all wizards employees used to have shroud and now have hexproof etc. but your definition of a game is helpful in illustrating his subtle yet profound failures as a designer and human. quite simply, zac hill is unable to tell us about anything other than his own biases.

something that seems significant to all the loose ends of this thread is Fact or Fiction

 

[Jason Waddell]

tutors are traditionally the most skill-testing cards in constructed mtg. after that you get 'name a card' effects and it's a damn shame cabal therapy, which is THE BEST MAGIC DESIGN OF ALL TIME (and it's not all that close), isn't cubeable. these are followed by dudes with several activated abilities

I 3-0'd a draft last month with P1P2 Cabal Therapy, so I think your definition of cubeable may be a bit off. Once you start combining it with other things that reveal cards, guys that like to die and threaten effects it becomes quite the card. I probably wouldn't shove it into a stock list, but by the same token I wouldn't penalize it for not living up to its Legacy lofty standards.

 

[CML]

yeah but you have 4-ofs and stuff. it's a tough one to support. a lot of the fun in legacy comes from trying to guess what they have to have for their very specific plan then stripping it or their hiding it or not having it or maybe having multiples or screwing with you and then ladies and gents we have a subgame.

the threaten thing i didn't consider because im a doofus. of course you're right and i was just being intellectually lazy

 

[VincePendrell]

Sarcomancy is an interesting subgame card when it is on the other side of the board. Also, I believe it is one of the coolest drawbacks ever made, as it doesn't punish you for doing something, it merely helps your opponent if he plays around it while having an interesting effect by itself.

Protection from whatever cards are also in this category of cards. They tend to make players think and act very differently to contour problems, usually ensuing a worth-telling story when the subgame is played properly. I know I have very fond memories of playing against Blood Baron of Viskopa with my Orzhov deck in the DMZ prerelease and against both Sword of Fire and Ice and River Boa with a UR Control just this weekend on a Cube Draft.

A card that I have enjoyed since it was released but haven't managed to test it in my cube yet is Pain's Reward. It is more of a minigame than a subgame card, but it feels like Fact or Fiction with life totals and unknown rewards at stake. Play it in BR aggro/beatdown and see how your opponent values his/her life totals against possible answers for your threats. (Hmm...this card has to go into my test pool ASAP)

 

[CML]

pain's reward is totally incredible! i love it a lot. but then nobody drafted it. it's always try-worthy

i'm surprised there isn't much of an animus towards protection here, as it seems like the opposite of a fun sub-game to me (or i guess it turns the game into that subgame). river boa on the other hand is harmless, i've wondered a little about including him but who knows

 

[Jason Waddell]

Protection and shroud straddle the line. Sometimes they are really interesting and make you dance around, but can still be beaten. Other forms of protection are just like "oh, I guess the game is over now". I am more okay with them in constructed metagames because you can plan around them, or you use them to attack a metagame from a new angle.

 

[VincePendrell]

Yeah, I've been sitting on some notes about an article on protection cards and ideas for handling them in a positive manner inside a cube environment but haven't solidified it yet. I'll see if I get to work on it as soon as I get some paperwork solved this week.

Back to other minigame cards, right now I have Sygg, River Cutthroat in my cube. I got to play him in this weekend and it was super fun. It does a good job of reinforcing you being aggressive. I've ran into some situations where I played a burn spell or went a bit too far to deal some damage and Sygg got removed before the end step, but playing the Sygg game was always interesting. It even drew me about 3 cards in a single game once.

Oh, and people mentioned Weathered Wayfarer but not Land Tax.

 

[Jason Waddell]

On that note most of the Ascensions (Bloodchief Ascension et. al.) create some sort of minigame too.

 

[James Stevenson]

Sygg sounds really cool, I might give him a shot.

 

[CML]

sygg is wonderful, just make sure you have a place for him. jason's cube with its zombardment seems ideal. mine with its blue and black durdles was not a great fit