MCMcEmcee's Cube~ [450]
- Thread starter MCMcEmcee
- Start date
Main Cube Stuff:
1) I want to cut Signets but I don't want to cut UB Tezzeret. Welp. (Need more cool non-mana artifacts to turn into 5/5s)
- Spined Thopter is on my radar, as are a bunch of the non-Signet mana rocks.
2) My fetches are tied up in Legacy and Modern decks but I want to up my count of Brainstorms in the cube. Welp. (How many non-shuffle synergies should I be looking at to make Brainstorm playable without fetches?)
- Alternatively someone drive the cost of Legacy/Modern staples down so I can just buy more fetches without blowing my entire tax return.
1) I want to cut Signets but I don't want to cut UB Tezzeret. Welp. (Need more cool non-mana artifacts to turn into 5/5s)
- Spined Thopter is on my radar, as are a bunch of the non-Signet mana rocks.
2) My fetches are tied up in Legacy and Modern decks but I want to up my count of Brainstorms in the cube. Welp. (How many non-shuffle synergies should I be looking at to make Brainstorm playable without fetches?)
- Alternatively someone drive the cost of Legacy/Modern staples down so I can just buy more fetches without blowing my entire tax return.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Proxy the fetches! (Nobody cares man, you even have real copies. Cubes are a service after all)
I was just browsing your cube list on CubeTutor, as you started this thread!
No utility draft makes me sad, because that's the best way to sneak in some artifact lands for Tezz. Plus, how else do you get to run cool, game-breaking lands like Vault of the Archangel or Volrath's Stronghold?
I like double Oblivion Ring, as opposed to that and a Detention Sphere. It's something I've been meaning to do for a while now, but haven't actually seen anyone else implement. Maybe I'll finally pull the trigger.
It baffles me a bit to see someone run that many mana rocks and not bother with Wildfire. You basically have free support for it!
No utility draft makes me sad, because that's the best way to sneak in some artifact lands for Tezz. Plus, how else do you get to run cool, game-breaking lands like Vault of the Archangel or Volrath's Stronghold?
I like double Oblivion Ring, as opposed to that and a Detention Sphere. It's something I've been meaning to do for a while now, but haven't actually seen anyone else implement. Maybe I'll finally pull the trigger.
It baffles me a bit to see someone run that many mana rocks and not bother with Wildfire. You basically have free support for it!
Proxies- I don't have a printer or the desire to make my own nice looking proxies. I don't really want to have Sharpie-on-basics-or-card-back proxies in my cube, as much as I love them for testing constructed. The people who make proxies at my LGS understandably don't want to make proxies with the actual card art, but the ability to connect art with a card is really important, especially for newer players aka pretty much everybody at my LGS. I already punish new players enough with textless promo Cryptic, green border Serendib Efreet, and random Chinese/Japanese/Korean cards... but at least they can like, walk over to the display case or look up cards for their EDH decks and connect the dots eventually, whereas that can't really happen with random (but very pretty) art on proxies (or Sharpie text on a basic plains).
Really I should just swap cards back and forth like I sometimes do for Standard, but it's such a hassle with double-sleeved Legacy/Modern cards :V
I cut Sphere for Ring recently, didn't really feel like it was worth a gold slot when the effect exists already. Could be a split of Oblivion Ring and Banishing Light for art variety, but I already run both Oring arts and I like the old wording. Banishing Light art is pretty sweet so I might change my mind, could just add Light but 3 oring effects feels like too much?
Lack of land draft is due to lack of lands... I like the idea but it's hard to justify going out of my way to pick up random lands for a side draft. Those old lands got pricey! I'll probably implement some version of it eventually, I even have a potential utility land list on my google doc for the moment I pull the trigger.
I like Wildfire but I'm not a huge fan of signets. Agree that it's a pretty natural inclusion, and I don't HATE signets. Been meaning to try it, might finally get around to it since it's easier than figuring out what to replace signets with in the short term.
Really I should just swap cards back and forth like I sometimes do for Standard, but it's such a hassle with double-sleeved Legacy/Modern cards :V
I cut Sphere for Ring recently, didn't really feel like it was worth a gold slot when the effect exists already. Could be a split of Oblivion Ring and Banishing Light for art variety, but I already run both Oring arts and I like the old wording. Banishing Light art is pretty sweet so I might change my mind, could just add Light but 3 oring effects feels like too much?
Lack of land draft is due to lack of lands... I like the idea but it's hard to justify going out of my way to pick up random lands for a side draft. Those old lands got pricey! I'll probably implement some version of it eventually, I even have a potential utility land list on my google doc for the moment I pull the trigger.
I like Wildfire but I'm not a huge fan of signets. Agree that it's a pretty natural inclusion, and I don't HATE signets. Been meaning to try it, might finally get around to it since it's easier than figuring out what to replace signets with in the short term.
Sometimes I need to revel in pointless elitism.
Cube for Cube League theorycrafting and brainstorming #1:
If most of the cards in a cube can be played at multiple points on the curve to help minimize land-related-variance, does that actually play well?
Ie. Bestow, Cycling, (Multi-)Kicker, Flashback, Madness, pitch spells, Transmute, Forecast, Dredge, Retrace, Buyback, Landfall (to a lesser extent), etc.
Also cheap spells that have lategame relevance; Ponder/Preordain/Brainstorm, removal, evasive dudes, charms, looters, Scavenge, etc. Cheap creatures with activated abilities.
Pretty much if all of your cards give you the option to do something with them when you are mana-light and can still be mana sinks when you flood, does the quality of gameplay improve? Or do the games suck because we have a bunch of inefficient spells/creatures? Density of meaningful decisions vs. having a bunch of meaningless decisions, flexibility vs. efficiency, cards that are good vs. cards that suck but have a lot of keywords, etc.
Aka how much durdling can you disguise via sheer velocity before people catch on?? What does an aggressive deck look like in this context?
This was an idea I've been poking at for a while but the recent discussion on lands/variance makes me want to try it out sooner rather than later. Starting with Pauper (maybe Peasant) mostly because it's for a cheap cube to leave at the LGS for our upcoming Cube League... would be interesting to think it through with a larger card pool.
If most of the cards in a cube can be played at multiple points on the curve to help minimize land-related-variance, does that actually play well?
Ie. Bestow, Cycling, (Multi-)Kicker, Flashback, Madness, pitch spells, Transmute, Forecast, Dredge, Retrace, Buyback, Landfall (to a lesser extent), etc.
Also cheap spells that have lategame relevance; Ponder/Preordain/Brainstorm, removal, evasive dudes, charms, looters, Scavenge, etc. Cheap creatures with activated abilities.
Pretty much if all of your cards give you the option to do something with them when you are mana-light and can still be mana sinks when you flood, does the quality of gameplay improve? Or do the games suck because we have a bunch of inefficient spells/creatures? Density of meaningful decisions vs. having a bunch of meaningless decisions, flexibility vs. efficiency, cards that are good vs. cards that suck but have a lot of keywords, etc.
Aka how much durdling can you disguise via sheer velocity before people catch on?? What does an aggressive deck look like in this context?
This was an idea I've been poking at for a while but the recent discussion on lands/variance makes me want to try it out sooner rather than later. Starting with Pauper (maybe Peasant) mostly because it's for a cheap cube to leave at the LGS for our upcoming Cube League... would be interesting to think it through with a larger card pool.
Laz
Developer
I wouldn't go this route. Mostly because there is a lot that you can do with <$1 rares, and they add a lot to the game. There are next to no big finishers at common (or Wraths, which is a huge void), but there are a whole bunch of 'not-quite eternal playable' $0.50 ones.
As to your other point, I am think you are on to something, but you don't have to go too far. You are mostly trying to provide more options in the event of flooding/top deck wars, but you don't need huge numbers of cards in the cube to do that. Generally lots of cards will have activated abilities which will give you something to do, and if you are just mindful to add a few Flashback, Cycling, Retrace, X-Spells, etc. cards you will generally seed enough interaction. If you do pursue a Madness theme though, I will be watching closely...
Should have clarified that the "all velocity cards" idea isn't for my main cube, but for a new cube that I'm helping design for my LGS. Hence the Pauper/Peasant/budget plan and the willingness to take a thought experiment to the extreme DA MAX. Going too far is the name of the game for the first iteration. Then after fixing it up I can port the good ideas to my cube!
Pauper was more a starting guideline to start building a framework. I would want at least some rare land cycles to make the fixing non-miserable. The scrylands seem like a good fit in terms of power level and theme, for example. Dunno it's very late/early so I can't think straight.
Pauper was more a starting guideline to start building a framework. I would want at least some rare land cycles to make the fixing non-miserable. The scrylands seem like a good fit in terms of power level and theme, for example. Dunno it's very late/early so I can't think straight.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Proxies: No local Kwick Kopy or something? It'd be a pain to use a bunch, but for the fetchlands which will likely never leave your cube it sounds fine to me 
Wildfire: My newest thing is for the 2cc artifacts to be either colorless (Everflowing Chalice mostly) or Fire Diamond (Throw em a bone). The 3cc artifacts will fix mana, though I'm not sure which ones yet. Darkesteel Ingot seems bad, but Coalition Relic is way too good.
Velocity Cards: It does make games more interesting, but too many has sequencing being really hard. Don't worry too much about it though, as basically every cube designer I've ever met loves these cards, and finding sweet ones to go in your cube usually happens naturally. I like the name too. Velocity
Also, Mogis's Warhound is totally ligit. He has surprised me in even the non double striking red decks I have. Giving the RDW player some form of card advantage is pretty sweet.
DSphere: Eric I run double ORing! I didn't add banishing light because I love the promo artwork on ORing. I'm at 450 cards right now and I don't think I want a 3rd.
Also, the new voting card Council's Judgement (I think thats the name?) basically acts as a WW1 downsideless Oring if thats what you want (with the small bonus of hitting hexproof/shroud/protection guys)
Wildfire: My newest thing is for the 2cc artifacts to be either colorless (Everflowing Chalice mostly) or Fire Diamond (Throw em a bone). The 3cc artifacts will fix mana, though I'm not sure which ones yet. Darkesteel Ingot seems bad, but Coalition Relic is way too good.
Velocity Cards: It does make games more interesting, but too many has sequencing being really hard. Don't worry too much about it though, as basically every cube designer I've ever met loves these cards, and finding sweet ones to go in your cube usually happens naturally. I like the name too. Velocity
Also, Mogis's Warhound is totally ligit. He has surprised me in even the non double striking red decks I have. Giving the RDW player some form of card advantage is pretty sweet.
DSphere: Eric I run double ORing! I didn't add banishing light because I love the promo artwork on ORing. I'm at 450 cards right now and I don't think I want a 3rd.
Also, the new voting card Council's Judgement (I think thats the name?) basically acts as a WW1 downsideless Oring if thats what you want (with the small bonus of hitting hexproof/shroud/protection guys)
So I was scouring your list in-depth for ideas, and I had some questions to throw your way. Hope you'll indulge me!
- Double Merfolk Looter, if you include Thought Courier! This is interesting. Are these primarily used to power up a reanimator / graveyard archetype, or does control make use of them too?
- How often does Spellstutter Sprite catch something on the way down? I've thought about this one, but there are so few playable faeries around...
- Have you considered Arbor Elf to go with your Utopia Sprawl / Wild Growth? (Disclaimer: My new endorsement deal contractually obligates me to advertise this interaction as much as humanly possible.)
- Yes to Drogskol Reaver! No meaningful comment here, I just love seeing that guy in lists.
- How effective is Selesnya Charm? This is a card I've come close to slotting in my list a couple of times, but then I worry that there are fewer five-power creatures in cube than in standard.
- I hope Jason doesn't read this.. but cut that lifegain theme ewwwwww
Looters are mostly just because I like looting... Control decks have been the primary home, but I am running a few reanimation spells so that interaction comes up every so often. I recently cycled out a bunch of value discards to test out some ideas so the looters aren't quite as good as usual, but normally there are some number of flashback spells at the very least.
Thought Courier is also a human and a wizard. Merfolk Looter has been given +1/+1 by Coralhelm Commander at least once. These things come up.
Spellstutter is an experiment that hasn't panned out well, which was mostly expected. It's on the "probably cut" list currently. I did draft literally every faerie card that was in one draft and managed to Spellstutter a 4 drop, so the dream was lived once~ Also a wizard incidentally.
Arbor Elf was a casualty of my old fixing cycles and is high on the list of cards to re-add now that I'm on double shocklands + mana enchantments. Also a wizard... wait no.
Drogskol Reaver is sweet. Sphinx's Rev is also sweet and I'm trying to decide if both belong in the cube simultaneously. Really I just want more ways for people to deck themselves...
Selesnya Charm has been fine. The most common mode has been the instant token, followed by the combat trick. The removal mode comes up often enough to make me glad it's there, since it hits gods, Titans, Vorapede, Silverheart, Woodfall Primus, black Mike, Angel of Serenity, etc. But yeah usually it's something like "after blocks, pump my Fabled Hero, lol you're dead" and such.
Lifegain "theme" was just Archangel + 1 Pridemate at first, but the Pridemate didn't actually show up in a pack for something like 10 drafts so I just added another one to try to make it appear. Double Finks was more of a Pod boost that plays well with others.
Not really looking to push a "lifegain deck" so much as seed another synergy that a drafter can often pick up late, while filling out a curve if taken early. Not sure if the Pridemates are good enough with just the incidental lifegain that I currently have.
Round 1 of post-Conspiracy updates~
In:
Out:
Demigod of Revenge
Manamorphose
Searing Blood
Forbid
Ponder
Gush
Spellstutter Sprite
Terminate
Venser, the Sojourner
Selesnya Charm
Zuran Orb
Runechanter's Pike
Frostburn Weird
In:
Out:
Demigod of Revenge
Manamorphose
Searing Blood
Forbid
Ponder
Gush
Spellstutter Sprite
Terminate
Venser, the Sojourner
Selesnya Charm
Zuran Orb
Runechanter's Pike
Frostburn Weird
Brainstorming:
- how to make aggro more appealing. Aggro 3-0s every other draft thanks to people ignoring it, yet my drafters continue to ignore it. Player error or design error?
- making room for more devotion cards? Specifically looking to add a green devotion incentive. Nylea or pharika?
- how to make aggro more appealing. Aggro 3-0s every other draft thanks to people ignoring it, yet my drafters continue to ignore it. Player error or design error?
- making room for more devotion cards? Specifically looking to add a green devotion incentive. Nylea or pharika?
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Can you elaborate the reason why aggro is being ignored? I think that many people who come to cube often have one of two views that can distort things. First, they view cube as a limited format and in most limited formats cube-speed aggro doesn't exist and drafting "bombs" is really important Second, they take the modo/powered/grim monolith view that the best way to win is to "do broken things" and curving Stromkirk Noble into Gore-House Chainwalker doesn't seem particularly broken.
Green devotion has made some fun decks in my cube. I think Nylea is a better card then Pharika. Nykthos really should be in here, particuarly since it does double duty in Black Devotion, just like Pharika can. Specifically for green devotion, Karametra's Acolyte and Reverent Hunter are both no joke, depending on what slant you are going for with the deck.
On an unrelated note, it doesn't seem like you run enough enchantments to make your enchantress support worthwhile.
Green devotion has made some fun decks in my cube. I think Nylea is a better card then Pharika. Nykthos really should be in here, particuarly since it does double duty in Black Devotion, just like Pharika can. Specifically for green devotion, Karametra's Acolyte and Reverent Hunter are both no joke, depending on what slant you are going for with the deck.
On an unrelated note, it doesn't seem like you run enough enchantments to make your enchantress support worthwhile.
I was joking on Skype that I should just customize all the "aggro cards" to have the mythic rarity symbol. It's probably just player tendency/biases more than anything else.
Argothian Enchantress and Enchantress's Presence could go, Eidolon of Blossoms has been good as just a cantripping creature that sometimes draws 2-3 cards. I want to try Bonds of Faith on a slightly related note.
Argothian Enchantress and Enchantress's Presence could go, Eidolon of Blossoms has been good as just a cantripping creature that sometimes draws 2-3 cards. I want to try Bonds of Faith on a slightly related note.
Points of interest from two team Rochester drafts:
- aggro was undervalued as usual but won as usual; Bw sacrifice aggro, WG pseudo-heroic and WB aggro all won their matches. Mono-red lost with a huge punt but was very favored to win before that point.
- blue control performed pretty poorly, 1-2 record overall. UB lost twice and UR was going to lose before the monored punt.
- blue and green cards were the most highly contested, then the premium white and black removal. Red, white, and black creatures went to pretty much whoever wanted them. Teams leaned towards a pick pattern of big flashy/bomby effects -> drawing cards -> removal -> fixing -> having creatures. Very little effort towards drafting a workable curve.
- aggro was undervalued as usual but won as usual; Bw sacrifice aggro, WG pseudo-heroic and WB aggro all won their matches. Mono-red lost with a huge punt but was very favored to win before that point.
- blue control performed pretty poorly, 1-2 record overall. UB lost twice and UR was going to lose before the monored punt.
- blue and green cards were the most highly contested, then the premium white and black removal. Red, white, and black creatures went to pretty much whoever wanted them. Teams leaned towards a pick pattern of big flashy/bomby effects -> drawing cards -> removal -> fixing -> having creatures. Very little effort towards drafting a workable curve.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
In my friend's cube, which I can best describe as "retail limited, but with nothing but bombs" the pick patterns are very similar to what you describe. However, unlike your cube, the person who drafts the best G/U shell generally wins. For whatever reason, it sounds like [some] your players want your cube to be his cube.
Preliminary M15 update:
In-
Dauntless River Marshal
Ajani Steadfast
Quickling
Military Intelligence
Chasm Skulker
Illusory Angel
Borderland Marauder
Generator Servant
Aggressive Mining
Elvish Visionary
Daybreak Ranger
Reclamation Sage
Nylea, God of the Hunt
Nissa, Worldwaker
Genesis Hydra
Shardless Agent
Sarkhan the Mad
Phyrexian Revoker
Out-
Misdirection
Stitched Drake
Firedrinker Satyr
Kiora's Follower
Manic Vandal
Olivia Voldaren
Pestermite
Wild Nacatl
Young Pyromancer
Stifle
Genesis Wave
Mesa Enchantress
Enchantress's Presence
Viridian Shaman
Armageddon
In-
Dauntless River Marshal
Ajani Steadfast
Quickling
Military Intelligence
Chasm Skulker
Illusory Angel
Borderland Marauder
Generator Servant
Aggressive Mining
Elvish Visionary
Daybreak Ranger
Reclamation Sage
Nylea, God of the Hunt
Nissa, Worldwaker
Genesis Hydra
Shardless Agent
Sarkhan the Mad
Phyrexian Revoker
Out-
Misdirection
Stitched Drake
Firedrinker Satyr
Kiora's Follower
Manic Vandal
Olivia Voldaren
Pestermite
Wild Nacatl
Young Pyromancer
Stifle
Genesis Wave
Mesa Enchantress
Enchantress's Presence
Viridian Shaman
Armageddon