Meltyman's Test Subject (720-card cube)

[Chris Taylor]

...My opponent draws a dash creature that hits me to zero if i do nothing. I respond with Sarkhan's Rage and say the game is a tie.
In the middle of our fourth game i realize that i actually won the game because i had a dragon in play, but obviously it was too late at that point. I lose the match. *ouch*...

You control a dragon (Boltwing Marauder) do you not? Sarkhan's Rage should win you the game there
Edit: Reading!

I'm always a little sad to see the black recursive 1 drops go. Are people not biting on black aggro? Or is this cube just too combo heavy for aggro to have room to breathe?

 

[Meltyman]

You control a dragon (Boltwing Marauder) do you not? Sarkhan's Rage should win you the game there
Edit: Reading!

I'm always a little sad to see the black recursive 1 drops go. Are people not biting on black aggro? Or is this cube just too combo heavy for aggro to have room to breathe?

Aggro is really good in my cube and our group does play aggro when the picks lead that way, but usually i don't see black aggro that much, so i decided to cut some of the early drops from it.
Gravecrawlers are really great still because you can combo off with them in so many ways

 

[Chris Taylor]

Aggro is really good in my cube and our group does play aggro when the picks lead that way, but usually i don't see black aggro that much, so i decided to cut some of the early drops from it.
Gravecrawlers are really great still because you can combo off with them in so many ways

Alright, that makes sense.
Still, I'd love to see one of the weaker 2 drops like soldavi adenate leave rather than Bloodsoaked Champion, he's just so flexible

 

[Meltyman]

Old News, list changed to a smaller size

Spoiler

Still, I'd love to see one of the weaker 2 drops like soldavi adenate leave rather than Bloodsoaked Champion, he's just so flexible

I like Bloodsoaked Champion also, but Gravecrawler is just miles away from what i want a one drop black dude to accomplish.
I rather inclued a fourth Gravecrawler first before adding a Bloodsoaked Champion.

Soldevi Adnate serves a different purpose:
-In my cube you can go infinite mana with this guy using intruder alarm
-ramp for 2 - 8 mana (su-chi gets you 8 mana)
-sacrifice a guy that likes to get sacrificed: abyssal persecutor, body snatcher, kokusho, the evening star, tidehollow sculler, persist guys, perilous myr, scuttling doom engine, solemn simulacrum while netting you mana.

Might not be enough, but i think this cube does have appliances for it. Black ramp has been played more often than i actually thought it would happen, so that is why i don't remove adnate just yet.

Cube Update
I tried to even the guilds a bit more and also included some cards for control players and a couple enablers for combo:

Spoiler

-> (second BTE to the mix)

-> (another enabler dude for Aluren that can be used also as an infinite mana dump or aggro dude)

-> (purphoros that is more accessible for aggro also )

-> (Aggro doesn't need more cards, but RW slot is _empty_)

->

->

-> (one Fiend Hunter is enough and Hobble can be abused for real card advantage, for example: Vedalken Mastermind)

-> (reanimator trick + can be clutch with enduring renewal when things go bad)

->

->

-> Ring was good, but i think one Icy Manipulator is enough.
Boomerang is ment to replace Orim's Chant for Isochron Scepter, because Orim's is too narrow of a card when used alone, boomerang adds more value to many decks.
Also Isochron + Boomerang is a powerful early play, but not unbeateable. Isochron + orim's chant falls in to the category of two card "oops i win"

->

->
I leave the altars to 1 each, i think there are enough sacrifice effects still, no need for those two

-> Accorder is boring, Anafenza is another Melira and also a great aggro dude.

-> More flexible and accessible

->

to

Guilds looks like this now:

Spoiler

 

[Meltyman]

Old News, list changed to a smaller size

Spoiler

I am trying to find some more enablers for Goblin Welder.

Basic reanimator has it easy because creature-wise it can use almost anything Welder would like to swap in to play, but Welder can't obviously use every big creature in the pool.

It seems Welder could use some more winning non-creature stuff in there like: Mindslaver or Tangle Wire.
Probably i will have to add another Mindslaver in there or something, unless i figure out something really good instead.

Few changes for now, Duplicant and a fourth Aether Searcher goes in.
EDIT: also Spine of Ish Sah goes in again.
EDIT2: Second Myr Battlesphere goes in.

Duplicant seems like a better target for Welder because you can kill dudes over and over again.
Aether Searcher has become a fan favorite and it was also requested i add a fourth one in there.

-> Aggro doesn't need Bonesplitter, it owns without it.
-> Memnarch doesn't seem to find home in any deck, so it has to make way for the MVP of reanimator
-> Aggro doesn't need wargear and Spine of Ish Sah could be also used in ramp, not just with welder
-> Elesh is not that exciting, i don't have a real copy of it anymore, Welder needs more targets and reanimator still has the same amount of targets, should be ok.
-> Seedborn doesn't have that many uses anymore and Freyalise seems interesting.
->

 

[Meltyman]

Old News, list changed to a smaller size

Spoiler

More adjustments:

-> Ajani fits into aggro or in some control decks and i need to lower the amount of aggro dudes.
-> Lowering the number of aggro dudes, also this effect is a little dull and the body itself isn't amazing. Idyllic Tutor has many targets to fetch.
-> Lowering the number of aggro dudes. Its been a long time since i last time played with Worship so its time to refresh my memory how it played out.
-> Lowering the number of aggro dudes, Cataclysm seems fun enough and not as unbeatable as armageddon.
-> Lowerin..., not sure if Gift of Immortality is worth it but we will see.
-> white memory lapse seems ok, 3 mana maybe too much, but i will give it a chance.
-> Recurring Nightmare might be a bit OP compared to the other cards in here, so off it goes.
-> Bitterblossom also seems to be an easy first pick and can be splashed easily i want to see it gone for now.
-> Lowering the number of... yeah. Warp World is living the dream, but i like to live in a dream every now and then
-> -II- .
-> Sulfuric is the best card in a cube, maybe we can do without it . Scrap Mastery seems awesome, i'll try it.
-> -II-. Greater Gargadon is sweet and Wildfire doesn't mind a second copy floating around.

 

[Meltyman]

Big update this time around.

List can be seen here


I will try to drop the amount from 720 to 540 - 550 cards. (540 is the goal, but i added 10 fetchlands to double the fetches for testing)

Hopefully this reduces the imbalances caused by the big variance of playables in any given archetype, while still feeling a little bit fresh from draft to draft.

What changed:

-I doubled on fetchlands
-Took out manlands and wastelands.
-Took out a lot of crap that i like to make work, but maybe most of our players don't, something like Aggressive Mining
-Cut the multiples from 3 to 2 pieces, except gravecrawler.


There were a lot of cards that i don't miss that much that are gone now.
For example:Hymn to Tourach, Liliana Vess, Rattleclaw Mystic, Mitotic Slime, Elspeth Tirel, Wasteland, Sword of Feast and Famine, Sword of Fire and Ice....

Some cards hurt a bit but i guess i will live for example:
World Queller, Skullclamp, Opposition, Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant....

I try to get a cube going ASAP and tell how this worked out.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Reducing your cube size? I can't say I saw that one coming after our recent discussion

I'm curious how aggro will perform with so few one-drops. Let me know, will you?

 

[Meltyman]

Reducing your cube size? I can't say I saw that one coming after our recent discussion

I'm curious how aggro will perform with so few one-drops. Let me know, will you?

Yes, i had to think this one through for a long time (thick skull), but as i said before, i am ok with cutting the size, just not to 360-450 range... ...yet

I'm pretty sure now it isn't possible to make focused archetypes without seeding the boosters in a way that you will 100% get the required pieces in the draftpool, so i rather cut the size than go that far.

I will ask our local aggro players to cube at our place this week or next weekend, so we can see if aggro can dominate with less support

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I gave the list a look over, and the changes seem pretty solid. Really curious how the enduring renewals play out for you.

How has steppe lynx been?

I have a few criticisms of the blue 2-3 drops. I understand why you want to run dream stalker, but that card is so weak that it might be better to double up on a kor skyfisher or other self bounce card. I also really don't like cloud of faeries here, there dosen't seem to be enough lands for it to really abuse to justify its slot. Also, as much as it breaks my heart to say it, trinket mage looks pretty bad here. There aren't a lot of impactful 0-1cc artifacts (including the artifact lands) for him to get.

 

[Meltyman]

I gave the list a look over, and the changes seem pretty solid. Really curious how the enduring renewals play out for you.

How has steppe lynx been?

I haven't seen it being played that much, but i know one of our players who __loves___ to play mono W or RW in any format played it.
I am hoping it will see more play now with less card pool and with double fetchlands.

I have a few criticisms of the blue 2-3 drops. I understand why you want to run dream stalker, but that card is so weak that it might be better to double up on a kor skyfisher or other self bounce card. I also really don't like cloud of faeries here, there dosen't seem to be enough lands for it to really abuse to justify its slot. Also, as much as it breaks my heart to say it, trinket mage looks pretty bad here. There aren't a lot of impactful 0-1cc artifacts (including the artifact lands) for him to get.

Dream Stalker is questionable for sure. My reasoning is that you can have a couple of less playable selfbounces in the pool so that the Aluren-player has a bigger chance of getting one of them in his/her deck.
Dream Stalker is a 23th card for other decks if even that, except with Cavern Harpy you can abuse it in many ways.
Not sure if i want to cut it yet, i try to keep things singleton as much as possible.

Cloud of Faeries has all the bouncelands, Tolarian Academy, Gaea's Cradle, Ancient Tomb. It works in Storm, Aluren and with Enduring Renewal.
The plan with Enduring Renewal + Cloud of Faeries could look like this: Enduring Renewal + Blasting Station + Cloud of Faeries.
In storm it just gives a slight mana boost while giving storm or if you are that much behind you can chump with it. Sometimes you will get infinite storm with Equilibrium + bonceland for instance.
Aluren gets a infinite mana combo out of that one.

I have gotten some critique about having 2 Birthing Pods and 2 Isochron Scepters in my cube.
To me those cards seem to have the same "modes" in limited.
What i mean is that you could have a creature deck that has a 1-of Birthing Pod that is kinda ok in there but it's there just to maybe tutor a dude every now and then.
Same goes with Isochron Scepter, you could have it in a controlish deck and use it every now and then, but it isn't no where near the focus of the deck.
This is the mode what people use it for in their cubes usually.

What i tried to do is put Birthing Pod and Isochron Scepter in their own decks that really plays a role, not just goodstuff it in with the creatures or instants respectively.
If i want to have a Birthing Pod deck with suitable creatures to combo or just synergize well with, i think i need to break the singleton.
You need to see it early and you will most definitely push that route when another Pod comes your way.

Same with Isochron it isn't that easy to build a "spells matter" kind of deck that really uses Isochron Scepter as a win condition.
I think some people has catched the idea i have been using in this cube. Something like playing Delvers, Monastery Mentors, Young Pyromancers as early pressure then slamming in the Isochron Scepter clock.
To me this seems like a fine plan and not that overpowered... i don't know...

EDIT:
Also, as much as it breaks my heart to say it, trinket mage looks pretty bad here. There aren't a lot of impactful 0-1cc artifacts (including the artifact lands) for him to get.

Maybe you are right. Trinket Mage in my cube almost always reads: "ETB find an artifact land from your library", sometimes it can fetch a top or pithing needle, even Engineered Explosives which is pretty valuable.
Altar of the Brood is a combo card so it does want a tutor also.

 

[Meltyman]

I will soon update that OPs list to 550, the drafts went well and no one wanted to go back to the original.
If only i could update the topic so that it doesn't say 720 anymore...

Some changes to the list:

I was asked if i could add the bomberman-combo in my cube, so i did.

-> Lion's Eye Diamond works with storm and also makes a combo with Auriok Salvagers. Isochron Scepter seems to be ok as a one-of.
-> Auriok is for the combo mostly. Phyrexian Processor seems to be too bland and an autoinclude because of its reasonable manacost, i want harder decisions !
-> Karn was talked about earlier in my group and the general opinion is that it is an autopick that goes to nearly every deck, so i take it out, i want harder decisions ! Pyrite Spellbomb on the other hand combos with auriok and should be an ok card for red in general + tinker mage has yet another target now !
-> Blood Artist is fine as a one-of i think. Aether Spellbomb combos with auriok and seems to be a fine card for blue in general + tinker mage has yet another target now !
-> Fecundity is meh, Inkwell Leviathan is annoying and generates non-games, but its the best isolated pick that only reanimator or welder wants, and i really think those archetypes needs more "guaranteed" targets. Aether Searcher has been a high pick, so i can't trust that card to wheel to reanimators or welders most of the time
-> Bloodghast seems like a fine one-of and BoB is an ok card...
-> Upheaval reads ramp and cast upheaval = win game. There are no other modes in that one, pass. Sundering Titan is for reanimator and Welder, although i really don't like this guy either.. i only hope our gaming group wants to make custom targets...

 

[frostymoose]

Do folks ever play aluren in decks that are incapable of an infinite combo?

 

[Meltyman]

Not really. The downside of Aluren is so high, that people tend to just try to abuse it rather than gain small value.

 

[Meltyman]

Finally some new thoughts on my cube.

First here is the list:

Size kept at 540-560


White (70):

Creatures (37):

Spoiler

Non-Creatures (33):

Spoiler

Blue (70):

Creatures (29):

Spoiler

Non-Creatures (41):

Spoiler

Black (70):

Creatures (34):

Spoiler

Non-Creatures (36):

Spoiler

Red (70):

Creatures (37):

Spoiler

Non-Creatures (33):

Spoiler

Green (70):

Creatures (38):

Spoiler

Non-Creatures (32):

Spoiler

Multicolor (59):

Spoiler

Colorless spells (68):

Spoiler

Lands (64):

Spoiler

Here are a few 3-0 decks that are made from my cube close to this list:

Mardu Enduring Combo

Spoiler

Mardu Enduring Combo

Mono Blue Control:

Spoiler

UR Kiki-Jiki combo:

Spoiler

First i would like to put some little notes on cards that have been tried, a sort of do's and dont's if you will.

Prophetic Flamespeaker - Pet card for so long, but it didn't perform well in this cube.
Double red card that seems to only work against aggro and that's about it, never saw that much play and we collectively voted it out of the cube. I know some cubes will find a place for it, but my cube is just too powerful for this effect.

Augur of Bolas - This card just doesn't work in limited, just no. 1U 1/3 for a 33% success rate just doesn't cut it. If you want this to work, you have to go over the top with instant's and sorceries in order to make this a viable card.

Selvala, Explorer Returned - Didn't see play at all. The only carrot for this card would be to have Aluren, Cavern Harpy and Intruder Alarm to mill your opponent, but yeah, it's pretty out there..
I think its biggest downfall is the mana cost. 1GW for a 2/4 with an ability that doesn't always give you the right result is just horrendous. If this guy was a G 1/1 with this ability ? now we are talking ;D

Ajani Vengeant - Maybe not a surprise, but this Ajani is just too good and oppressive.
The main reason it has been here for so long is the narrowness of boros, but luckily we finally got a new sweet boros card which is Nahiri, the Harbinger.

Smothering Abomination - This card could work in theory in my cube with Enduring Renewal, but the effect is a little too taxing for the gain, there just weren't too many places where this guy fits.

Steppe Lynx - This guy was just too underwhelming and boring to be honest in this cube. Needs more build around in your cube to make it sweet. (multiples and power level drop probably)

Plated Geopede - Same as above really. It might be a little better, but it's still pretty underwhelming for my taste. I want more Abbot of Keral Keep's!

Gisela, Blade of Goldnight - The effect is powerful, but it gets hosed by so many things in my cube. The sad truth is that the creature has to have a great ETB ability or has to have Shroud, protection... such a shame there aren't that many fun cards with this criteria..

Jace, the Living Guildpact - This cube is just too powerful to resolve something like this, baby jace is better i feel and i don't run it either because it's boring..
If you make your cube all about ETB, then i could see a slot for this guy for the -ability, but then again it usually does it just once... needs more loaylity to be viable.

Delver of Secrets - I think my cube needs a little more tweaking to make this guy work, maybe 4 brainstorms or something like that, but i rather take these out than start making Delver plans work better. My group wasn't that excited about the card anyway, Delver exhaustion is a thing i guess

The Great Aurora - Nope, doesn't work in a normal cube, it went into my Reject Rare Cube.

Scuttling Doom Engine - The effect doesn't seem to be interesting enough, people just didn't play it that much. Hard to evaluate based on almost 0 games played with it, but i don't miss it anyway, so not going to get more info on this card.

Dualcaster Mage - Card seems sweet, but in reality it sits in your hand and usually does nothing... Keeping 1RR open to get a 2/2 that might someday hit something is underwhelming to say the least... Mystic Snake this is not, took it out and i haven't missed it ever since.

Demonic Pact - I haven't seen any play from this card, no one has discussed about it either, it just needs too much to work and the benefit isn't appealing enough, i have to take it out based on this.

Intruder Alarm - This card seems to be on par with Splinter Twin that i also took out because it was too on dimensional in that you would only add it if your deck can make a kill from it right after you cast it. Intruder Alarm also doesn't seem to appeal my cube players either and the bulk of the playerbase just passes this along i feel.
I probably will be taking it out because it either generates stupid "oops i win" -games or it just gets passed around until someone gets a last pick from it.

Aether Searcher - This card was a house and we liked it so much that we decided to put 2 copies of it, but it seems to be a little too powerful than it should be.
If someone gets 2x Aether Searcher's in his/her deck, you get a pretty ridicilous toolbox since you get to choose which card you find.
I still recommend it, but don't goo too nuts with it, we now have only 1 copy of it in my cube.

Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - This card was a house, my cube has a healthy amount of targets for naturalize and the +2 ability doesn't go to waste, ultimate also wins games without being too oppressive. The reason it's not in here is mainly because i don't want to fill the slots with planeswalkers, so i took Freyalise out over Garruk Relentless, Garruk Wildspeaker, Nissa Worldwaker.

Thopter Spy Network - This card is really strong in my cube.
In a control shell where you can fight off infinite combos after stabilizing it's pretty hard to lose with this card.. artifact lands and signets makes it so that you will be making thopters pretty easily..
I'm on the verge on taking it out since some players discussed the power level of this card.

Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - The card has been powerful and i think i want to keep it although it won't see play that often because of the BUG requirement. When a deck comes together with this guy it shines so much, i guess i could tinker with my cube a little to make this play better even more.

The Gitrog Monster - I was pretty hyped about this card to begin with, but after we played a few cubes and i saw it played both of the times my expectations were fulfilled.
This card is just perfect for my cube, reasonable body but not over the top and the draw engine is fun to play and risky but rewarding, oh my, this card is so sweet try it out !!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then comes the second part where i could use some help with you fellow cubers.
I have thought about taking out the storm part from my cube, but i have a hard time figuring out what could replace it.
Also it would affect a little on the Aluren part since storm is the most obvious place to start when you sculpt on the Aluren plan.

What would come out:
Peregrine Drake, High Tide, Brain Freeze, Turnabout, Gush(?), Timetwister, Mind's Desire(?), Time Spiral, Dream Halls, Priest of Gix(?), Cabal Ritual, Bubblin Muck, Yawgmoth's Will, Tendrils of Agony, Necropotence(?), Yawgmoth's Bargain(?), Storm Entity, Grinning Ignus, Priest of Urabrask, Desperate Ritual, Seething Song, Grapeshot, Wheel of Fortune, Empty the Warrens, Past in Flames, Mana Flare(?), Tinder Wall, Hunting Pack (?), Burning-Tree Emissary, Manamorphose (?), Squandered Resources, Epic Experiment, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Bloom, Memory Jar.

What would this mean for my cube:
- More interaction for sure
- Boosters would be less poisonous (not that many do nothing cards for most of the decks)
- Aluren loses a winning condition that is the most obvious, this means i have to start teaching players how you win without it.
(Altar of the Brood, Laboratory Maniac(?) + Glimpse of Nature -effects , Earthcraft + Fireball/Stroke of Genius, Primeval Bounty, Outpost Siege, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Cloudstone Curio + Keldon Marauders/ Geralf's Messenger, Priest of Gix + Crypt Ghast + Cavern Harpy, Pestermite/Flickerwisp + Cloudstone Curio + Creature, Suture Priest + Selfbounce creature)

- Enduring Renewal loses a winning condition, but it wasn't the main part of the combo
- "Fair" decks starts to look more appealing
- I would finally get to take out all the draw 7's that haunt me in my dreams, they look so over the top compared to most of the stuff in this cube, also Timetwister makes my cube appear powered in cubetutor
- Maybe more room for new archetypes ?


--------------------------------------------------------

Am i missing something for instance in red that i could try to make happen if i take out 10-11 red cards from storm?
Or should i just add more good stuff on red and be done with it.
I know my red section doesn't have that much burn in it, so it's a place to start at least.

Any other Aluren cards that i should have in here to make it more viable ?

 

[Meltyman]

I made a poll for my gaming group about storm and no one said they want storm out, so nope it's staying there !

Also i tweaked the list just a little:

-> : Greater Good didn't see enough play and there weren't that much obvious combos with it and green's 5-drops had only 4 creatures. Also Whisperwood Elemental is something i haven't tried too much yet.

-> : Mana Leak is fine, but i think Remand is more interesting and Miscalculation + Condescend kind does the same thing while being a lot more interesting.

-> : Intruder Alarm has some instawin combos with Kiki-Jiki or Krenko, Mob Boss or Bloodline Keeper etc and sadly i think it was the only application i usually saw it used.
It's too one dimensional in my cube and makes "oops-i-win" games only, so i rather have MR.snappy back.

-> : I have a feeling Tymaret isn't doing enough to be worth it. Being a two color dude makes it a little too unappealing for aggros i think and it can work in the right deck, but it doesn't happen that often. Sarkhan the Mad is something i want to see played again because it's actually a powerful effect, but people usually won't add it in their decks, i might have to take him out also, but i'll give him another chance.

-> : Dack Fayden was included because of the reanimator in red and black, but the -2 ability is a little too oppressive at times, so i rather not have it in my cube. I think my cube has enough discard effects to justify this cut. Ral Zarek is a planeswalker that sees play a lot so the swap is a really great one. Less powerful stuff more interesting stuff.

-> : Tinder Wall is just too bad. Storm only card and in green, not that great.
Noble Hierarch i took out because i sold it, but now i made a sweet full art proxy of it that i use, so i don't have to put 35-40euros for a effect like this

 

[Meltyman]

And a little more tweaks:

-> : Hunting Pack was a fun one in my opinion, but the mana cost is too much and all the decks that could use this card in their favor can do without it. Seasons Past seems like sweet "finisher" when you draw 5-6 cards full of business.

-> : Jack was a little too bonkers usually and we have laughed enough for the bad luck 1's that you sometimes get with this card. Mimic Vat seems like a solid card for this cube, especially Kokusho-vat seems so appealing !

: I only added this to test it out, i don't want to replace it with anything i have in the UR section. Only time will tell if this card is good enough.