Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Ah...thats too bad. You're right, it only triggers when it ETBs, and won't trigger from the flip.
Min/Max Midrange Cube Experiment
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Brilliant
Probably a stupid idea for me to throw out, but does this make something of a mini-morph ETB thing possible (dare I say theme?)
Maybe for another cube?
You can still go infinite with
Probably a stupid idea for me to throw out, but does this make something of a mini-morph ETB thing possible (dare I say theme?)
Maybe for another cube?
You can still go infinite with
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I finished up, I think with the UB decks last night, I think, and what I've been doing is trying to find something for Big Rakdos.
Broadly speaking, the cube's color wheel looks to be as such
Grixis Family
These are the blue based family of decks, concerned with either generating direct card advantage, or a tempo/pressure gameplan of evasive flyers.
Jund Family
These are the grindy value driven graveyard family of decks, that want to generate card advantage via ETB recursion and applying pressure.
Naya Family
These are the aggro-combo and land recursion family of decks, interested in building board states to one big decisive turn.
I'm having a hard time giving rakdos a strong individual identity as a midrange deck, as its been gravecrawler.dec for so long. There probably should be a constellation squeezing in under grixis or jund, and addressing BUG, that deals with a unique form of graveyard centered card advantage.
I've been considering some possible core of
Rapidly depleting resources and than using draw 7s to rip through the deck, powering the graveyard as an extension of the hand.
Obviously, there are some problems, but I at least like it conceptually. Its a pretty unique way of generating card advantage for the cube, and slots in nicely with both jund and grixis, and starting with rakdos helps avoid the problem of an OP BUG wedge.
Broadly speaking, the cube's color wheel looks to be as such
Grixis Family
These are the blue based family of decks, concerned with either generating direct card advantage, or a tempo/pressure gameplan of evasive flyers.
Jund Family
These are the grindy value driven graveyard family of decks, that want to generate card advantage via ETB recursion and applying pressure.
Naya Family
These are the aggro-combo and land recursion family of decks, interested in building board states to one big decisive turn.
I'm having a hard time giving rakdos a strong individual identity as a midrange deck, as its been gravecrawler.dec for so long. There probably should be a
constellation squeezing in under grixis or jund, and addressing BUG, that deals with a unique form of graveyard centered card advantage.I've been considering some possible core of
Rapidly depleting resources and than using draw 7s to rip through the deck, powering the graveyard as an extension of the hand.
Obviously, there are some problems, but I at least like it conceptually. Its a pretty unique way of generating card advantage for the cube, and slots in nicely with both jund and grixis, and starting with rakdos helps avoid the problem of an OP BUG wedge.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Opinions on these two cards?
Couldn't find anything on good for underworld dreams. I personally like the card from the 90s (where it was insane) and its kind of like a fairish sulfuric vortex with a higher ceiling, if you can get past the triple black.
Only could find salvation posts on jar, and they were saying its pretty meh in a creature centric format, and only really busted in spell based combish cubes. Seems like it would be perfect to really draw the deck together.
Couldn't find anything on good for underworld dreams. I personally like the card from the 90s (where it was insane) and its kind of like a fairish sulfuric vortex with a higher ceiling, if you can get past the triple black.
Only could find salvation posts on jar, and they were saying its pretty meh in a creature centric format, and only really busted in spell based combish cubes. Seems like it would be perfect to really draw the deck together.
Underworld Dreams is prrrrrrrrrretty bad. I'd look to:
First...which is nice with:
Memory Jar is pretty nice with welders and value Tinker...
One card I've been interested in trying to exploit fairly is:
Mostly to pillowfort behind using something like Stormbind or Words of War to chip away at the opponent. However, there would need to be a sufficient amount of artifact removal and reach that isn't combat dependent. I think I really just want to draft Iron Phoenix in cube (that terrible Shard Phoenix Bridge Deck.
First...which is nice with:
Memory Jar is pretty nice with welders and value Tinker...
One card I've been interested in trying to exploit fairly is:
Mostly to pillowfort behind using something like Stormbind or Words of War to chip away at the opponent. However, there would need to be a sufficient amount of artifact removal and reach that isn't combat dependent. I think I really just want to draft Iron Phoenix in cube (that terrible Shard Phoenix Bridge Deck.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Drafted this
Happier, but still kind of disappointed. There were too many potentially viable cards, which suggests that I yet again have too many redundant pieces.
The really cool thing that this type of deck would do, traditionally, would be some kind of combo aggro, converting the act of an opponent drawing cards off of the draw 7s into something negative.
Or there would be a focus on symmetrical discard, and converting that to damage
I feel like there is a level of creativity still missing here.
Happier, but still kind of disappointed. There were too many potentially viable cards, which suggests that I yet again have too many redundant pieces.
The really cool thing that this type of deck would do, traditionally, would be some kind of combo aggro, converting the act of an opponent drawing cards off of the draw 7s into something negative.
Or there would be a focus on symmetrical discard, and converting that to damage
I feel like there is a level of creativity still missing here.
Not to get off topic but I do love the idea of a Simic mini-morph theme in a cube that's slower and a little lower powered than this.
To keep things on topic, here's a deck that I drafted. p1p1 was Time Warp, p1p2 was Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and p1p3 was Sylvan Library. I ended falling into a Simic deck that was pretty focused on casting non-creature cards.
I think the plan will usually be the stall long enough to get into a situation where you're constantly casting Time Warp off of various Regrowth effects and getting some benefit out of those spells whether it be through Nibilis of the Frost, Talrand, Sky Summoner, or Thing in the Ice. Thing in the Ice in particular looks very good if you're taking 2-3 extra turns.
I like the deck but would have liked more mana elves, more fetchlands for Titania, Protector of Argoth, and maybe a Psionic Blast or other psuedo removal.
I ended up doing another draft and ended up with this.
This deck feels pretty midrangey and makes extensive use of the graveyard. There's a nice mix of draw spells that have discard as part of their cost as well as removal spells that can be cast from the graveyard. There aren't very many creatures but the ones included either act as removal spells or serve a unique purpose. I took Vampire Nighthawk over Cathartic Reunion as a lot of my spells ended up having life loss as payment and I felt prone to bleeding out during the draft. I drafted Memory Jar but excluded it because it just didn't feel right. It would probably do better in a deck that's more threats than answers like this one it.
Avaricious Dragon and Bottled Cloister seem like a pretty brutal combo.
I really really really wanted to splash Geistblast's flashback cost but unfortunately didn't see the lands I needed.
This deck feels pretty midrangey and makes extensive use of the graveyard. There's a nice mix of draw spells that have discard as part of their cost as well as removal spells that can be cast from the graveyard. There aren't very many creatures but the ones included either act as removal spells or serve a unique purpose. I took Vampire Nighthawk over Cathartic Reunion as a lot of my spells ended up having life loss as payment and I felt prone to bleeding out during the draft. I drafted Memory Jar but excluded it because it just didn't feel right. It would probably do better in a deck that's more threats than answers like this one it.
Avaricious Dragon and Bottled Cloister seem like a pretty brutal combo.
I really really really wanted to splash Geistblast's flashback cost but unfortunately didn't see the lands I needed.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I will say, the idea of removing the last counter off thing in the ice with a time warp, and an eternal witness in play does make me giddy
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Really liked this. Looks like you were in a tough spot after missing on the elves in the draft, but still put together a neat plan combining the time walk recursion intended for the UG decks, with the spells matter cards of the UR decks. Would have ran maindeck vines as a 1cc way to protect your generally threat presentment from spot removal.
It did get me thinking about what happens if UG misses on elves or goes light on counters, as I don't want their draft to be threatened. Added vend. clique and dungeon geists and upgraded confiscation coup to mind control, so a bit better independent removal, and a disruptive flash flyer. Than in green I added troll ascetic and bristling hydra as cards that can pressure while giving you a window to untap to protect them with.
Looks great. This suggests I can cut mem. jar, since decks looking to max spell velocity are going to benefit from it, which suggests aggro, and its CC is a bit high for that. Seems rather narrow in these formats.
Also cut the dedicated draw 7s because it looks like the traditional draw engines are more appealing than them.
Few other notes. Found space for these utility cards
As I find they always open a list up in some unexpected way.
Want to cut
Not sure with what. Kind of wishing UB identity felt a bit more focused.
Kind of think
Is redundant, but not sure what to replace it with
Cut
Because the card is busted.
Thinking about
And fulcrum's idea of a doomsday control deck.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Forgot I wanted to mention:
Thats good. That was actually deliberate to the way the creature sections were setup. I know that the slow decks are really going to be dependent on having access to defensive 3s to slow the game down, and that its especially important to have removal priced to take that into account in this format, so that reactive decks can curve up smoothly.
Its especially important in black due to limited access to lifegain really punishing those decks, which is why nighthawk is a staple here, as is kalitas at 4, and noxius gearhulk at 6. This should make it possible to curve removal into some sort of lifegaining board influencer, to recoup lost time. Realistically, these control decks are still going to have a healthy focus on creatures.
I think we're wrapping up here though. Added gisa and geralf because why not, as well as:
Which combos nicely, saving me a slot on dark ritual. Kind of wish I could add liturgy of blood, though I am sure there are some lower power implications there.
Those combine with
To enable either a self mill combo deck, or (theoretically) a self-mill control deck!
And I think thats everything. All of the two color combinations are well represented, in both fast and slow incarnations, as well as four different shard/wedge identity pillars. There is sort of a good stuff skeleton, and than cards that take that to new places, rewarding drafter creativity. There is aggro, aggro-combo, tempo, midrange, combo, and control decks represented. Almost all of the cards making up the list have been more or less vetted by the community, so a bunch of solid players.
There have been enough new printings that everyone functions quite nicely in a singleton format. All I would really ask for would be one more good aggressive green 1 drop, and one more good aggressive black 1 drop.
There is certainly nothing (I think) that would look obviously weird, quirky, or odd to an outsider (besides doomsday and lab man). Its a comfortable size, no singleton breaks, no ULDs--very relatable to people new to the forum's ideas.
Kind of would be nice to balloon it up to 540 for next time WOTC drops a random "cube contest." This is certainly better positioned to compete due to how simplified it is.
I would like to take a moment to acknowledge how competitive the red three drop slot is:
Thats good. That was actually deliberate to the way the creature sections were setup. I know that the slow decks are really going to be dependent on having access to defensive 3s to slow the game down, and that its especially important to have removal priced to take that into account in this format, so that reactive decks can curve up smoothly.
Its especially important in black due to limited access to lifegain really punishing those decks, which is why nighthawk is a staple here, as is kalitas at 4, and noxius gearhulk at 6. This should make it possible to curve removal into some sort of lifegaining board influencer, to recoup lost time. Realistically, these control decks are still going to have a healthy focus on creatures.
I think we're wrapping up here though. Added gisa and geralf because why not, as well as:
Which combos nicely, saving me a slot on dark ritual. Kind of wish I could add liturgy of blood, though I am sure there are some lower power implications there.
Those combine with
To enable either a self mill combo deck, or (theoretically) a self-mill control deck!
And I think thats everything. All of the two color combinations are well represented, in both fast and slow incarnations, as well as four different shard/wedge identity pillars. There is sort of a good stuff skeleton, and than cards that take that to new places, rewarding drafter creativity. There is aggro, aggro-combo, tempo, midrange, combo, and control decks represented. Almost all of the cards making up the list have been more or less vetted by the community, so a bunch of solid players.
There have been enough new printings that everyone functions quite nicely in a singleton format. All I would really ask for would be one more good aggressive green 1 drop, and one more good aggressive black 1 drop.
There is certainly nothing (I think) that would look obviously weird, quirky, or odd to an outsider (besides doomsday and lab man). Its a comfortable size, no singleton breaks, no ULDs--very relatable to people new to the forum's ideas.
Kind of would be nice to balloon it up to 540 for next time WOTC drops a random "cube contest." This is certainly better positioned to compete due to how simplified it is.
I would like to take a moment to acknowledge how competitive the red three drop slot is:
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Cataloging some more of my stupid ideas, that didn't make it due to slight power level issues.
For a while I had
To run alongside repeat draw effects like
In a somewhat slower format, you could use those cards to fuel collusion, cashing in the two cards you drew on turns, to rig your hand. That would be consistent with the idea of UB being a tutor based control color, which in the penny cube you achieve with flash and mystical teachings. You would have a small selection of key control cards, which you would tutor for, and than recycle as need be:
And if you open the deck up to bug, seasons past and other "to the bottom of the library" cards work really well.
Instead we run doomsday and dark petition, which is cool, but a bit clunkier I feel.
I also really liked the idea of wheeling through a library as a way to power self mill, than using that as a platform to recycle a powerful set of answers in B/R
That also becomes a way to power mill as a wincon for a control deck, without having clunky cards like howling mine.
Than maybe cut all of blue's discard and any reanimation, shipping that off to red and white, maybe just keeping dread return in black (because its amazing).
And if I had been able to run actual auras, it would have been nice to run
I really like this card, but its really kind of meh if you can't grow it.
For a while I had
To run alongside repeat draw effects like
In a somewhat slower format, you could use those cards to fuel collusion, cashing in the two cards you drew on turns, to rig your hand. That would be consistent with the idea of UB being a tutor based control color, which in the penny cube you achieve with flash and mystical teachings. You would have a small selection of key control cards, which you would tutor for, and than recycle as need be:
And if you open the deck up to bug, seasons past and other "to the bottom of the library" cards work really well.
Instead we run doomsday and dark petition, which is cool, but a bit clunkier I feel.
I also really liked the idea of wheeling through a library as a way to power self mill, than using that as a platform to recycle a powerful set of answers in B/R
That also becomes a way to power mill as a wincon for a control deck, without having clunky cards like howling mine.
Than maybe cut all of blue's discard and any reanimation, shipping that off to red and white, maybe just keeping dread return in black (because its amazing).
And if I had been able to run actual auras, it would have been nice to run
I really like this card, but its really kind of meh if you can't grow it.
This doesn't strike me as exactly your kind of interaction, but have you thought about Forbid in the Demonic Collusion role alongside Arena effects? It doesn't do the tutor thing but does replicate the interaction in a powerful way, one that your drafters will be interested in pursuing from a pure power-level perspective. I am, admittedly, more open than most to this kind of lockout occurring in a game in my cube. I think it's both interesting and nostalgic, calling to mind the good old Forbidian decks.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Decided to give the Min/Max experiment a shot. (it's late and I have a splitting headache, so please excuse poor deck-building decisions.)
Was met with a decent enough opening pack power-wise, and took Monastery Mentor, hoping Time Warp would wheel. It did not, but I did manage to throw together this sweet (at least, I think it is), R/W aggro deck with (surprise!) MLD from Bust/Goblin Dark-dwellers. This deck seems exceedingly good at getting ahead on board, and MLD happens to be just the thing you want to be casting when you are...
I had options several times to split off into black for some sweet tech (Fire Covenant, K-Command, etc.) but decided against it in order to preserve a solid mana base.
Was met with a decent enough opening pack power-wise, and took Monastery Mentor, hoping Time Warp would wheel. It did not, but I did manage to throw together this sweet (at least, I think it is), R/W aggro deck with (surprise!) MLD from Bust/Goblin Dark-dwellers. This deck seems exceedingly good at getting ahead on board, and MLD happens to be just the thing you want to be casting when you are...
I had options several times to split off into black for some sweet tech (Fire Covenant, K-Command, etc.) but decided against it in order to preserve a solid mana base.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The three drops strike again:
With 3cc being the meeting point for:
1. Interesting removal
2. Counterspells
3. Essential utility creatures
4. Essential stabilizing creatures
With 3 and 4 taking precedent in these creature dominated formats. Right now I have no 3cc counters, and thought I had moved enough removal where I wouldn't have this problem, but seems like I have a clumping again in white.
Thanks for the draft
With 3cc being the meeting point for:
1. Interesting removal
2. Counterspells
3. Essential utility creatures
4. Essential stabilizing creatures
With 3 and 4 taking precedent in these creature dominated formats. Right now I have no 3cc counters, and thought I had moved enough removal where I wouldn't have this problem, but seems like I have a clumping again in white.
Thanks for the draft
The three drops strike again:
With 3cc being the meeting point for:
1. Interesting removal
2. Counterspells
3. Essential utility creatures
4. Essential stabilizing creatures
With 3 and 4 taking precedent in these creature dominated formats. Right now I have no 3cc counters, and thought I had moved enough removal where I wouldn't have this problem, but seems like I have a clumping again in white.
Thanks for the draft
Now that you mention it, I did find an abundance of good cards at 3CMC. I passed on things like Prison Term and brimstone volley in the draft because I was so overloaded.
Id probably count collective defiance as a four drop.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Should be good now. Like I said, there are no 3cc counters, and the total array of 3cc removal are:
Cut brimstone volley for magma jet, and added faith unbroken and declaration in stone.
This is part of why stoke the flames and murderous cut are such good cube cards.
Cut brimstone volley for magma jet, and added faith unbroken and declaration in stone.
This is part of why stoke the flames and murderous cut are such good cube cards.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Made a lot of little tweaks, and the list is pretty sweet at this point.
Wanted to go over the the changes to the control decks, which have been pretty awesome. As we let off, I was lamenting how the lack of bouncelands or signets made it very difficult for these decks to gain mana superiority, as well as the lack of ways to replay removal made it very difficult to run a gameplan based around using removal to slow the game down. The end result being that control decks would inevitably, at some point, have to include a creature based value gameplan, to close games out. A lot of the recursive removal strategies from the penny cube, just weren't translatable to this format.
I ended up taking a note from m14, where cheap defensive creatures, coupled with lifegain, and the addition of recycling cards, allowed a slow gameplan of attrition, than shuffling removal back into the deck, rather than trying to reuse it from the yard.
Which actually makes a ton of sense. Instead of having some awkward "GY" or "delirium" deck sorting sitting out there in all of its gimicky glory, the recycling components become core to the cube's actual structure, and than should they result in a neat self-mill deck (which they actually can go infinite with using regrowth effects) thats just a cool thing that occurred, rather than heavy handed design.
There is a lot more incidental lifegain, and ways to close the game down. I tried to make sure I had some good defensive two and three drops in white, green, and black. There isn't really a lot in black, but I brought this excellent card back:
So you can now get something like this:
Than I made an effort to include some cards that actually reward slowing the game down, and building up mana, rather than just falling in the 4cc midrange blue jund zone (hello fact or fiction)
Debating the DTT, which might be better as a high CC draw (like opportunity) that can double as a kill condition and is hard for midrange to poach. I feel its a bit redundant running blue sun's zenith with stroke and sphinx rev. already in the cube.
Its worth noting that because the aggro decks were designed with a slower more positional reach gameplan in mind, giving control or midrange tools to slow the game down doesn't automatically trump them strategically. Everyone gets to play magic.
Cut some of the cards with grokability issues (gifts given, prison term) or which were weird mechanical hold outs (bristling hydra), or which were gimmicky and just difficult to understand (doomsday).
The R/W decks have grown tremendously in depth. The tutor recruiter tutors, coupled with flickerwisp, means that it is capable of producing a tremendously flexible toolbox, generating card advantage, and building a board that plays nicely into the mini-overruns from red.
I've deliberately built upon this by providing mini-reanimator tools in white (return to the ranks, reveillark, alesha) coupled with red discard outlets. So besides the small weenie creatures, you also have
That can be tutored for as well as reanimated. R/W also features spell triggers and prowess triggers, adding to that angle as well. The end result is a very deep color pair that can come out in a variety of ways. Its still very aggressive, and feels like a unique take on the strategies a number of the other color pairs are capable of doing.
Wanted to go over the the changes to the control decks, which have been pretty awesome. As we let off, I was lamenting how the lack of bouncelands or signets made it very difficult for these decks to gain mana superiority, as well as the lack of ways to replay removal made it very difficult to run a gameplan based around using removal to slow the game down. The end result being that control decks would inevitably, at some point, have to include a creature based value gameplan, to close games out. A lot of the recursive removal strategies from the penny cube, just weren't translatable to this format.
I ended up taking a note from m14, where cheap defensive creatures, coupled with lifegain, and the addition of recycling cards, allowed a slow gameplan of attrition, than shuffling removal back into the deck, rather than trying to reuse it from the yard.
Which actually makes a ton of sense. Instead of having some awkward "GY" or "delirium" deck sorting sitting out there in all of its gimicky glory, the recycling components become core to the cube's actual structure, and than should they result in a neat self-mill deck (which they actually can go infinite with using regrowth effects) thats just a cool thing that occurred, rather than heavy handed design.
There is a lot more incidental lifegain, and ways to close the game down. I tried to make sure I had some good defensive two and three drops in white, green, and black. There isn't really a lot in black, but I brought this excellent card back:
So you can now get something like this:
Than I made an effort to include some cards that actually reward slowing the game down, and building up mana, rather than just falling in the 4cc midrange blue jund zone (hello fact or fiction)
Debating the DTT, which might be better as a high CC draw (like opportunity) that can double as a kill condition and is hard for midrange to poach. I feel its a bit redundant running blue sun's zenith with stroke and sphinx rev. already in the cube.
Its worth noting that because the aggro decks were designed with a slower more positional reach gameplan in mind, giving control or midrange tools to slow the game down doesn't automatically trump them strategically. Everyone gets to play magic.
Cut some of the cards with grokability issues (gifts given, prison term) or which were weird mechanical hold outs (bristling hydra), or which were gimmicky and just difficult to understand (doomsday).
The R/W decks have grown tremendously in depth. The tutor recruiter tutors, coupled with flickerwisp, means that it is capable of producing a tremendously flexible toolbox, generating card advantage, and building a board that plays nicely into the mini-overruns from red.
I've deliberately built upon this by providing mini-reanimator tools in white (return to the ranks, reveillark, alesha) coupled with red discard outlets. So besides the small weenie creatures, you also have
That can be tutored for as well as reanimated. R/W also features spell triggers and prowess triggers, adding to that angle as well. The end result is a very deep color pair that can come out in a variety of ways. Its still very aggressive, and feels like a unique take on the strategies a number of the other color pairs are capable of doing.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Is geist-honored monk's power actually 0 in the graveyard? I don't think tarmogoyf's is
Edit: Looks like it is. Monk's still a fine card mind. You could go with Belfry Spirit, old favorite Karmic Guide, or something more unconventional like Knight-Captain of Eos instead
Edit: Looks like it is. Monk's still a fine card mind. You could go with Belfry Spirit, old favorite Karmic Guide, or something more unconventional like Knight-Captain of Eos instead