Modern Archetype Cube

[Eric Chan]

A co-worker of mine has thought about creating his own cube that would essentially consist of his favourite limited archetypes from over the years. He hasn't actually gotten around to doing it, though, so I've started brainstorming ideas for a second cube of my own. Following Wizard's recent pattern of ten two-colour archetypes, and Jason's key conceit of layering archetypes with plenty of cards that will be wanted by multiple drafters, these are the initial ideas I've come up with. The power level of the cube would be closer to a regular limited format than a typical cube - if, on a scale of power, 1 is core set limited, and 100 is a power-max cube, I'm aiming for 20-25. As before, I'm sticking to Modern cards, 'cause.

Below I've listed some ideas of two-colour build-arounds for each deck, as well as some of the key, high value mono-colour cards. The gold cards are meant to typically only fit into that one deck, but some or many of the mono-colour cards should be useful elsewhere.

- Tempo




- Control, Flash




- Sacrifice




- Storm




- Auras, Heroic




- Extort, Lifegain




- Spells




- Dredge




- Wide Aggro, Humans




- Ramp




The decks I'm most unsure about are RG Storm, and GU Ramp. With storm, I'm worried that mucking up the list with otherwise useless rituals and storm cards could prove poisonous. Also, the deck skews heavily red; green's presence would largely be token, unless there was also perhaps an X casting cost subtheme, where hitting big mana early and finding a good sink for it is rewarded. For ramp, my main concern is that green can really pair with any other colour if it wants to go big - witness five-colour domain in Modern Masters - and blue isn't really a requirement, even if I put a couple of big fatties in UG.

Feedback & suggestions more than welcome, before I dig myself too deep in this rabbit hole!

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

UR has a lot of defacto storm cards already you could run: talrand, sky summoner,kiln fiend, nivix cyclops. U tempo has a bunch of cards that also work well with upping spell count: snap, gitaxian probe, gush, ponder, brainstorm. Mutagenic growth and aspostle blessing also fit in storm, tempo, and aura's decks. You could run some of the suspend fatties to keep GR in that direction, while also supporting storm; and with all of that mana generation, you could run past in flames as a combo build around.

If you run a goblins tribal theme somewhere (rb like in MM?) if gives more use for empty the warrens, which also fits into the sacrifice theme.

I think I would consider some of the possible sub themes in the color combinations and their implications, because I can already see a few here. UR spells seems like it can gravitate strongly towards a storm deck, and probably do it better than GR due to U cantrips. Storm might be a better sub theme for GR. You also probably have some sort of WB sacrifice deck due to the existance of white token makers.

Dredge looks pretty lonely. The rest of the cube dosen't seem to focus around milling or graveyard. So maybe thats an issue?

Looks really good though!

 

[Eric Chan]

Thanks for the the suggestions, Grillo. Yeah, I'm expecting that players will splash for a third colour somewhat regularly, because of the abundant fixing I plan to supply, so I'm hoping that a lot of cards that are useful to one strategy can seamlessly work their way into another, and act as a bridge between decks. Falkenrath Noble works with both sacrifice and lifegain; tokens are useful to both wide aggro and sacrifice; Mulldrifter is at home in both control and ramp; Talrand's Invocation provides fliers for both tempo and spells; auras should be able to buff creatures outside of the core GW archetype.

To be truthful, I'm not really enamoured with the storm idea much. The RG colour pair has me stumped. I don't want it to be just "midrange Gruul stuff", nor am I eager to support Wildfire. Do you have any ideas for archetypes? I'm open to anything, including tribal, if there's a well-supported one.

I was kind of hoping to get away from cheap blue cantrips in this list, actually. The only one I was giving serious thought to is Thought Scour, so that blue can participate in some of the graveyard shenanigans. You're right that limiting graveyard interactions to just GB might be narrow, so I might throw in the usual assortment of looters and blue flashback spells. With those changes, maybe all three of UB, BG, and GU might be able to play around in the yard. Or do you think it's not worth going down this path, if all five colours don't get to participate equally?

edit: Bad dumb idea for RG: All-in PONZA!!!

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think you'll be fine as long as you have some graveyard interactions sprinkled around the cube. The looters in blue seem good, stitched drake ect.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

edit: Bad dumb idea for RG: All-in PONZA!!!

Doesn't seem too bad. Most decks can utilize mana dudes and any fast deck can leverage land destruction. As long as there isn't anything like Spirit Guide -> Tinder Wall -> Seething Song -> Turn 1 Deus its probably cool.

 

[Eric Chan]

But that's... that's what I... it's no good if I can't...

All I want to do is cast T1 Deus once, and then scrap the archetype entirely. Too much to ask?

Another thought: Monsters, RAWR



The only thing this archetype would be missing is... a theme. Is there anything to tie these guys together, aside from their keyword?

 

[Chriskool]

Hello Eric!

I have been working on color-pair- archetype cubes geared toward the "Limited experience" (albeit, not restricted to Modern-legal cards or singletons) since MMA blew my mind, and here are some ideas that you might find useful:

RG +1/+1 counter synergies. (I have this as a UG color pair, since Simic was +1/+1 counter themed, but RG would also work.) Lots of overlap potential, especially with Heroic and Sacrifice archetypes. Evolve, Scavenge, Unleash, Devour, Bloodthirst, & Monstrous are all keywords for which to look. Possible Br vampiric theme with +1/+1 counters and sacrifice overlap; bonus that Vampire Hexmage hates counters.



RG Slivers. (Gets better when expanded to Naya) Pretty boring, but there are a lot of playable slivers in Modern now.

RGx Elementals. I think this only works with multiple Smokebraiders, but there are some neat Elemental Spirits and Elementals with +1/+1 counters (if you have RW spiritcraft, UG +1/+1 counters). You also get the added ability to splash hits like Shriekmaw/Mulldrifter.

uB Zombies. Overlaps with sacrifice theme. Blue is so minimal that you can also have Ub as control. You haven't lived until you've cast and unearthed Corpse Connoisseur, both times for value. Lots of zombie cards are also fantastic with self-milling.

wb Humans. If you have a bit of a vampire tribal subtheme, then adding the small human subtheme is probably a low cost (as many humans will be present).


A lot of these themes really get driven home if you break the singleton constraint (since many times the Limited motivation was an uncommon in a small set or a common). Some, like RW spiritcraft probably don't exist with the constraint enforced (since you need a preponderance of arcane spells and an engine such as Tallowisp).

Lastly, are you planning on playing any 'walkers? Here are some that might be weak enough to be enjoyable, haven't see a ton of competitive play and fit into some of the themes:

 

[Chriskool]

Also, since I forgot to ask: what are your coworker's favorite Limited strategies?

 

[Eric Chan]

Welcome to the site, Chris! Your contribution right there is another is the fine line of "awesome first posts by brand new forum members".

I was just thinking about well-supported RG tribes late last evening, and I was disappointed to find that both Shamans and Warriors are lackluster, at best. Slivers is an interesting suggestion - M14 contributed a lot to the pool, though like you, I worry that assembling a pile of bodies with just stat boosts might get old pretty quickly. Elementals is sweet, and as someone who loved the 5cc Lorwyn-era Horde of Notions deck, it's an idea I can get behind. I guess the archetype would be centred around red, with green as a supporting element, as I can't think of many cheap green dorks with the right creature type. The part that baffles me the most, I suppose, is that RG doesn't have a "staple" tribe after all these years. Are there enough werewolves to go down that path...?

I was just looking at Corpse Connoisseur, and he's going straight into the list. I suppose blue should have a Stitched Drake, and maybe an Armored Skaab or two, to get in on the action.

I wasn't planning on including any walkers in this cube. My current environment feels at times like it's stuffed to the brim with planeswalkers and their myriad interactions, so I wanted to dial that aspect back - and right out of the list entirely. Those three you suggested are all in my main cube, though, and make for sweet games! I can see them not having much of an effect in power-max lists, but they're right at home in my lower-powered environment.

Do you have a cube list I can peruse? ...is that what's in your signature?

edit: NEW bad dumb RG idea: WALLZ!!!

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I really like the RG counters idea. Its more midrangy without being oppressive on aggro, and even lets you run ion storm if you wish. Back when we had the inclusive aggro thread, I catalogued a lot of the archetypes we discussed, in cubetutor, including the +1 +1 counters one. Might be helpful as a reference if you go down that route.

The thing that i've found most fun about R/G, at lower power, is the combat tricks you have available, in particular:





With somewhat weaker removal, its really interesting having to leverage your pump spells both as defacto counters and kill conditions in your aggro deck; or to give your aggro decks a combo kill feel due to double strike pumps. Strobe and its ilk are also great in the U/R spells matter archetype.

Edit: One kind of cool thing you could with the walls, is have a sort of "wall ramp control deck." Wall of roots ect. with the goal to get up to 7 mana or so and dominate the board with big green or red dudes that carry with them some ETB board impact. The main issue is if you want games slowed down like that, and how (and if) you want your aggro archetypes interacting with that type of deck.

 

[Chriskool]

...
Do you have a cube list I can peruse? ...is that what's in your signature?

edit: NEW bad dumb RG idea: WALLZ!!!

Thanks for the warm welcome! I have lurked a bit, and your post's inspiration was enough to throw up a reply. I may have to work on my own version of this from your blueprint; it seems *so fun*!!

I tried a wall subtheme in one of my earliest archetype cubes; players hated it! It was among all 5 colors.

RE: pump spells. I really enjoy Briarhorn, Vines of Vastwood, bloodrush, reinforce; the pump spells that feel modal make great mid-pack picks!

My current cube project is not quite ready for discussion A teaser is in my sig, though. About to make my last pre-draft update tonight (featuring Searing Meditation). I appreciate the interest.

 

[Eric Chan]

Oh wow, good call on Ion Storm. I'd forgotten all about that card, despite its popularity in the other thread. You guys might be right - I wasn't convinced that a +1/+1 counter theme could work anywhere but in, say, GW, but there might be something here. Centered around



And then various bloodthirst, monstrosity, unleash, evolve, and graft creatures. I don't mind RG being a midrangy colour pair, as aggro should have its bases covered by BR, GW, WU, and RW, so something slightly slower would be great here. Thanks, Chris & Grillo - this should be more fruitful than me trying to scour Gatherer yet again for some hidden RG tribe that I've convinced myself I've missed.

Yeah, this cube will have combat tricks aplenty. I've tried various ways of working them into my main list over the years, but because the power level is still on the high side, the likes of Giant Growth don't stack up well to Ultimate Price, Burst Lightning, or Lightning Helix. I really want Defiant Strike to be a thing in the heroic decks, and even something like Titan's Strength should be able to help with prowess triggers.

Now that you guys have been so helpful, I really need to bear down and flesh out that RG section.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

There are a few other cards in R/G that I wouldn't mind brewing around, but not sure exactly where to go with them:




BTE and Radha are solid tempo cards, but have never really worked out for me. However, radha seems built for combat tricks, and in a format with enough depth of them, could be a real pull into the sort of R/G combat trick deck I was toying with, and lead to some really interesting moments during combat. BTE is a card i've never really been able to capitalize on in cube, which seems a shame to me, as its such a tempo booster. I think its because generally my RG decks gravitated towards midrange, and weren't interested in building a board presence of small beaters.

Zhur-Taa seems like it has so much utility as a form of reach, mana accelerent, and way to trigger bloodlust. If you throw in something like scab-clan mauler, you might be able to push two gruul decks: one midrange based on counters, and the other more tempo focused using combat tricks to close out the game as well as protect its threats. It might also be a way to justify including some of the R/G storm cards (prob not the actual rites), without taking the risk of warping your entire cube around an idea that might not pan out. The suspend cards and empty are still independently useful in that case.

I also think the goblin tribe could be really interesting, mostly because of these guys:




I really like modern affinity, its very skill intensive the way you have to manage your board and know when and how to sacrifice to ravager. Unfortunatly, that is very difficult to translate over to cube due to limited artifact space in most formats. Sledder and raider provide a way to shift counters around during combat and avoid removal while still dealing damage. Matron is unique in the sense that she provides a utility tutor for an aggro deck, who could also get the sweetest of all goblins: goblin sharpshooter. One of the key cards to the archtype would be mogg war-marshal, and all of those cards can overlap into the goblin sacrifice sub-theme theme in R/B at worse. Empty the warrens also becomes a very strong card here, powering up the light storm elements.

 

[Chriskool]

Goblins were fun and effective in Vintage Masters, but... so many of the fun ones aren't Modern-legal! I guess that you are about at the "pick ideas and start" phase; when do we get to see a large brainstorm document?

 

[Jonas]

I alway support ponza. Go for it!

 

[Eric Chan]

I know how you feel, Jonas. I'm an old-school, land destruction-loving griefer, too, from back in the day when your primary lines of attack being Stone Rain and Thermokarst were viable. I think that Magic is so much faster now, though, and aggro more interesting and varied that you're liable to get overrun with critters if you're on the Stone Rain plan.

I'm very, very slowing coming up with a list at the moment. Hopefully once I do that, I'll dump some more ideas on here, and request additional feedback on the supported archetypes!

 

[Chriskool]

I tried Ponza in a heavily modified C/Ube (2x many meat-and-potatoes cards for each color-pair strategy), and the dedicated LD almost always ending up in SBs. (I don't think my Ice Storm has ever been cast ;[.) Deus, Avalanche Riders, Acidic Slime, and Ember Swallower regularly saw play in non-RG decks. I was super bummed, as I *love* Tectonic Break and Veteran Brawlers. Oh, and of course, the Firespouts saw a lot of play in multicolored control decks. The closest thing to a LD deck that I ever saw was Sped Red (RDW with Riders, Stone Rain, Pillage & Aftershock).

TL;DR: LD of the Stone Rain variety mostly sucks in the NWO.

 

[Chris Taylor]

LD has kinda shifted focus in my eyes.
Keeping your opponent off getting to 2 mana hasn't been fun for anyone. As stated, this usually ends with you getting run over by 1-2 drops because your whole hand got expended to stop them from casting hellrider or fact or fiction.

Keeping them off of 5 mana with cards like avalanche riders and acidic slime? That's much more paletable to people because they can still cast most of their deck, but can't really afford the true haymakers.

There's problems with this of course. Sometimes you draw badly and keeping someone off 5 mana turns into keeping them off of 2 mana, and then nobody's having fun again. As well, some decks don't really play 5 drops, so keeping them at about 3-4 mana doesn't do anything since they can still cast vengevine or whatever.

Acidic Slime really is the perfect card for this kind of thing in my eyes. He can screw people out of their colors. He can lock people out of the game. But most of the time he's a fairly solid 2-for-1 (deathtouch is key) which is also a really flexible answer (Same reason we love Vindicate and Oblivion Ring)