My Pokémon cube

GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12

Looks sweet! I actually have a mutant Pokemon cube (any basic evolves into any stage 1, any stage 1 evolves into any stage 2) that I spent ludicrous amounts of money (mostly by trading for cards) building three years ago. Now I've sold almost all my other cards of value, but haven't touched the cube out of a combination of nostalgia and sheer terror of how much work it would be to offload it. Some day I'll find a game store selling singles that wants to buy it as a package deal... or so I keep telling myself.

I'd love to play a cube like yours... if my present-day budget conscious self were to design a Pokemon cube, it would be in imitation of this. Mutant is very convoluted and makes a lot of basics OP, and the heavy focus on colorless, along with the choice to cut some colors (types? It's been a long time) in your list is great.
 
B

blacksmithy

thanks, glad you like it! pokémon card prices are so strange, you never know what will be expensive!
i am slowly working through ordering this whole cube, so i will hopefully have a draft report in the next couple months.
 
GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12

Yeah, prices can be weird. Older cards are unplayable in any sanctioned format, so their prices are driven by collectors (typically older enfranchised players that played competitively decades ago and have nostalgia for the powerful cards of the age) and people playing original formats such as cube (rare for Pokemon). The most busted cards ever printed also hold a long-lasting appeal (cards like Uxie, Spiritomb, Sableye, Dunsparce, Claydol, Smeargle, Shaymin, Broken Time-Space, etc).

Your format is probably low-power in terms of the actual attackers, mid-power in terms of Trainer cards, but practically power-max when it comes to utility Pokemon, seeing as you're running most of the list I wrote above (I think this is a good choice, because centering powerful draw and search in cards that have to stay on the board leads to more interactive games and interesting decisions about what to prioritize in your bench space). Anyways, I'd expect those to be your most expensive cards along with a few heavy-hitters from days past (Gengar, Machamp Prime, etc).

Outside of the variables of what sees/has seen competitive play and what collectors want, the rarity of a card (which is closely tied to how old it is, since most players don't resell their cards and lots of Pokemon's audience won't take proper care of them) and the "bling factor" (how shiny it is) make up the rest of the price. Also, it's a much smaller resale market than magic, so weird stuff constantly happens, especially when speculators get involved.
 
B

blacksmithy

GalacticTraveler12 said:
Your format is probably low-power in terms of the actual attackers, mid-power in terms of Trainer cards, but practically power-max when it comes to utility Pokemon, seeing as you're running most of the list I wrote above (I think this is a good choice, because centering powerful draw and search in cards that have to stay on the board leads to more interactive games and interesting decisions about what to prioritize in your bench space). Anyways, I'd expect those to be your most expensive cards along with a few heavy-hitters from days past (Gengar, Machamp Prime, etc).
Click to expand...
Your whole post is fascinating to me, i love weird economies like the Pokémon TCG’s!

This balance of support vs. attackers is very important to me and it’s something I am tweaking behind the scenes as i get ready to order this whole list on MPC. I am actually looking at breaking singleton on the Stage 1 support pokémon, like Claydol and Ninetales, to give even greater consistency to my motley crew of stage 2 attackers. I really wanted to craft an environment where stage 2s were the main attackers, but I wanted to draw and search to be good so people could reliably set up and get their decks running.
 
GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12

blacksmithy said:
is balance of support vs. attackers is very important to me and it’s something I am tweaking behind the scenes as i get ready to order this whole list on MPC. I am actually looking at breaking singleton on the Stage 1 support pokémon, like Claydol and Ninetales, to give even greater consistency to my motley crew of stage 2 attackers. I really wanted to craft an environment where stage 2s were the main attackers, but I wanted to draw and search to be good so people could reliably set up and get their decks running.
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I would definitely support breaking singleton on Claydol since the other one you're running is pretty weak. The secondary Ninetales you're running is strong/interesting enough that I think you could go either way on breaking singleton on the one that draws cards.

I like that stage 2s are the main attackers, that seems to be the most decision-dense form of Pokemon. Also makes for pretty quick and interesting drafting with the squadroned cards making up most of the deck.

Some observations from drafting on cubecobra:

There's a pretty considerable number of basic support Pokemon that want to be in the active position: Smeargle, cleffa, Pichu, Spiritomb, Sableye, etc. This is cool, but worth noting that ways to switch your Active Pokemon with a benched one will definitely be at a premium in the format. You're running a decent amount (I count 14 trainers, if you count stuff like Acerola), it will just be an interesting dynamic. Skyarrow Bridge would probably be strong (not in the list, just speculating).

The fighting-type garchomp is going to be certified busted. 120 damage for two energy is really, really good in this format, and if you're behind on prizes it's 160 without even needing to discard energy. On top of that, 150HP is a lot.

The Raichu with Evoshock is probably also a bit pushed. 130 for three with a minimal downside is strong, and it's only a stage one. It does have lower HP, but on top of being a great attacker it has the paralyzing ability, which is very good. I'd jam that card if it only did 70 damage.

Final card that will be too good: Rough Seas. It's going to make a dedicated lightning or water deck practically unkillable. That card saw competitive play in 2014, in decks like Mega Kyogre and Mega Ninetales (cards with 200+HP and large damage output). 30HP healed each turn adds up. Also worth noting that there aren't many stadiums in the list, so when one is played, it will tend to stick. The other ones seem reasonably powered though.

You might want to cut a couple rainbow energies for two more double colorless energies. This is a pretty subjective design choice, but double colorless will definitely be first picks because in a deck that can utilize them they are quite strong, and there's only two.

Rocky Helmet... might be good. It's hard to tell. It was never remotely playable competitively, but this is a slow format where things aren't going to die in one hit, so it's probably worth a shot.

Cynthia is the strongest draw trainer in the cube, and I would first pick it 90% of the time. Not necessarily a bad thing, but getting 6 fresh is pretty good. If you wanted more of this type of effect you could include N (just spelled N, not sure if you have heard of it), although this card is pretty swingy and can lead to someone randomly not having a hand (although with all the Pokemon support cards that can draw/search this may be less of an issue in your cube). I might be an evil spike, but I sure had a lot of fun making crazy comebacks with that card. Aside: competitive Pokemon through the eyes of a magic player is uninteractive as all hell sometimes. "Prison" or "lock" decks are almost always strong. There have been some interesting rube-goldberg-machine lock decks where they meticulously try to create a near-unbeatable setup (look up Gothitelle/Accelgor from 2013).

Really cool cube! Also glad someone is interested in me rambling about Pokemon. Lol.
 
B

blacksmithy

GalacticTraveler12 said:
I would definitely support breaking singleton on Claydol since the other one you're running is pretty weak. The secondary Ninetales you're running is strong/interesting enough that I think you could go either way on breaking singleton on the one that draws cards.

I like that stage 2s are the main attackers, that seems to be the most decision-dense form of Pokemon. Also makes for pretty quick and interesting drafting with the squadroned cards making up most of the deck.

Some observations from drafting on cubecobra:

There's a pretty considerable number of basic support Pokemon that want to be in the active position: Smeargle, cleffa, Pichu, Spiritomb, Sableye, etc. This is cool, but worth noting that ways to switch your Active Pokemon with a benched one will definitely be at a premium in the format. You're running a decent amount (I count 14 trainers, if you count stuff like Acerola), it will just be an interesting dynamic. Skyarrow Bridge would probably be strong (not in the list, just speculating).

The fighting-type garchomp is going to be certified busted. 120 damage for two energy is really, really good in this format, and if you're behind on prizes it's 160 without even needing to discard energy. On top of that, 150HP is a lot.

The Raichu with Evoshock is probably also a bit pushed. 130 for three with a minimal downside is strong, and it's only a stage one. It does have lower HP, but on top of being a great attacker it has the paralyzing ability, which is very good. I'd jam that card if it only did 70 damage.

Final card that will be too good: Rough Seas. It's going to make a dedicated lightning or water deck practically unkillable. That card saw competitive play in 2014, in decks like Mega Kyogre and Mega Ninetales (cards with 200+HP and large damage output). 30HP healed each turn adds up. Also worth noting that there aren't many stadiums in the list, so when one is played, it will tend to stick. The other ones seem reasonably powered though.

You might want to cut a couple rainbow energies for two more double colorless energies. This is a pretty subjective design choice, but double colorless will definitely be first picks because in a deck that can utilize them they are quite strong, and there's only two.

Rocky Helmet... might be good. It's hard to tell. It was never remotely playable competitively, but this is a slow format where things aren't going to die in one hit, so it's probably worth a shot.

Cynthia is the strongest draw trainer in the cube, and I would first pick it 90% of the time. Not necessarily a bad thing, but getting 6 fresh is pretty good. If you wanted more of this type of effect you could include N (just spelled N, not sure if you have heard of it), although this card is pretty swingy and can lead to someone randomly not having a hand (although with all the Pokemon support cards that can draw/search this may be less of an issue in your cube). I might be an evil spike, but I sure had a lot of fun making crazy comebacks with that card. Aside: competitive Pokemon through the eyes of a magic player is uninteractive as all hell sometimes. "Prison" or "lock" decks are almost always strong. There have been some interesting rube-goldberg-machine lock decks where they meticulously try to create a near-unbeatable setup (look up Gothitelle/Accelgor from 2013).

Really cool cube! Also glad someone is interested in me rambling about Pokemon. Lol.
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these are some good suggestions! i am looking at other garchomp options (there’s a few) and actually, Raichu Prime is a pet card of one of my drafters so that will be the one i run double of.
i am going to let Rough Seas prove it’s oppressive before i cut it, i don’t run anything with 200+ HP.
Rocky Helmet can probably come out as i had a lot of tool options and just kinda picked a couple without too much thought.
for the basics, i just picked everything i could think of that helps set up so that everyone could get a decent roster of setup pokémon, but i can see putting in some more benchwarmer types later as playtesting happens, or running more evo lines if people feel like they can’t get enough attackers. my plan is to do 40 card decks and 4 prize games to keep things moving at a good pace, i’m hoping for a good “beer and snacks” kind of cube experience rather than something really intense and spikey. i have MTG for that!

thanks for checking out the list and giving feedback! i only played in tournaments and such during the SP era so my evaluation of stuff outside that period is kind of limited.
 
GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12

Pichu and Regice may not be the strongest basics you're running, but I'd say they're not the weakest either. Free retreat on a basic is really nice, almost worth a slot in of itself, so even if it's hard to break symmetry on Playground, I think Pichu (at least one copy) is worth keeping around. Regice is probably not useful too often, so I'm not sad to see it go, but I would argue that Celebi, the Manaphy that looks at the top six cards, and Audino are all a bit weaker than, say, Alolan Vulpix. This is a kind of weird dynamic because I actually think you can't evolve Alolan Vulpix into a normal Ninetales by the game's normal rules, and also, I would totally draft Ninetales just to pick up the squadroned Alolan Vulpix. So it might be best to replace that with a normal one. The Celebi and Manaphy are probably fine, but something similar to the Alolan Vulpix (or maybe that itself if you can convey to your drafters that it can't evolve into Ninetales, and just put it in the main draft pool) might be a good replacement.

Oricorio, Hawlucha, Absol, and Zigazagoon all seem exciting. Unown is pretty lackluster compared to Uxie, but I guess most cards are, so this may not be a problem.

This Mew is super sweet, helps you set up and can be a versatile attacker against things weak to Psychic:
https://i0.wp.com/pkmncards.com/wp-content/uploads/en_US-XY10-029-mew.jpg?fit=734,1024&ssl=1

I would suggest something like this:
+2 Alolan Vulpix (main draft)
-2 Manaphy (the Pokemon finding one)
+3 Normal Vulpix (squadroned)
-3 Alolan Vulpix (squadroned)
+2 Hawlucha
-1 Audino
-1 Phione
+1 Absol
+1 Zigazagoon
-2 Regice
+1 Oricorio
-1 Celebi
+1 Mew
-1 Pichu

Can't figure out a replacement for the second Audino, but I like the idea of having a decent colorless starter that can attack well and provide some utility. It's probably worth a shot to see if it performs better than on paper. Also, the changes I listed create lots of single copies of basics, which might be an unnecessarily taxing number of unique cards to keep track of. In that case, I would go with double Absol over Zigazagoon, double Oricorio over Celebi, and double Mew over Pichu.


Some extra unsolicited feedback (sorry I keep bombarding you with suggestions, I'm just really excited by this cube!):
-The Sunflowa line seems a bit anemic, since there's a lot of strong search and draw in this cube (even some in green already with the Venusaur and Bulbasaur having Pokemon search effects)
-The Gabite you're running that can find dragon types can't find the Garchomp that evolves from it, which feels a little strange
-The Dragonair in the Dragonite line is strong enough that I would pick up Dragonites just to run it, which may or may not be desirable
-The Kingdra that does 90 to active and 30 to bench for one energy is very strong. Would you consider Kingdra Prime as a slightly lower-power alternative?https://i1.wp.com/pkmncards.com/wp-content/uploads/en_US-HGSS2-085-kingdra.jpg?fit=734,1024&ssl=1

Good luck with the ordering and prep process! I'm sure you and your players will have a blast. I get a huge blast of nostalgia just scrolling through the cube cobra list, so playing it in person has got to be a great experience, and the gameplay looks like it will also be balanced and skill-testing.
 
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blacksmithy

this is awesome feedback, thanks! a second set of eyes on everything is so helpful, especially because i definitely do NOT want to be going back and reordering later.

some questions:
-what grass stage 1 would you recommend in place of Sunflora? i agree with your premise but i’ve just been EXTREMELY underwhelmed by the grass stage 1s i’ve found so far.
-i am toying around with level Xs and some of the utility SPs, but kinda meh on them as they add a weird layer of complexity that isn’t needed. thoughts?
-EDIT: that Mew link isn’t working for me. is it the Fates Collide one with Memories of Dawn and Encounter?
thanks again, you are helping me immensely!
 
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GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12

After taking a look through pkmncards.com, I think the clear winners for grass stage ones are Yanmega and Ninjask/Shedinja:

Yanmega Prime: https://pkmncards.com/name/yanmega/#images-9
was quite good in competitive play in its time, and I'd be more worried about it being overpowered than weak, but none of its attacks are particularly threatening. Zero-energy attackers are just always pretty strong, and "unlocking" it on this card takes some skill, as well as offering interesting opportunities for counter-play for the opponent.

For the second Yanmega, I would go with https://pkmncards.com/name/yanmega/#images-11, which seems fairly solid, since you can power it up in one turn with a grass from your hand and grass from your discard, and immediately do sixty damage. Then after it gets hit by the opponent's dude, you just retreat for free and save him for later, when he can again power up in one turn to finish off one of your opponent's attackers. Or you can store up energy longer and end up doing 80 or 100 at once, if necessary.

This one is probably too strong: https://pkmncards.com/name/yanmega/#images-7. It takes a pretty long time to power up, but the second one of your attackers dies, you can avenge them with an 100 damage attack, and again, once your opponent hits it, you just retreat for free and save it for later. In the end you'd probably get two 100-damage attacks from a single stage one, all at the price of just three colorless energy, so I think it would be pushing it a bit with the power level. Also, it would make the Yanmega line effectively colorless, because Yanmega Prime attacks for free in the right conditions, AND it combos very well with the Yanmega Prime, which retreats for free too, since you can repeatedly swap between attacking with each. The other Yanmega with Yanmega Prime is still a potent combo, but much more fair.

If you want to try something more wacky you could do this Ninjask https://pkmncards.com/name/ninjask/#images-4 with this Shedinja https://pkmncards.com/name/shedinja/#images-5. Ninjask is a strong attacker if you can switch into something like Spiritomb, Jirachi, or most likely, the Shedinja that you just found with its ability. The Shedinja has a really funny ability in this cube, because (I'm assuming you're just treating everything that talks about abilities as referring to poke-bodies and poke-powers as well and vice versa?) pretty much every strong attacker has an ability/poke-power/poke-body of some sort. This would force the opponent to use some random prior evolution of one of their Pokemon to kill it (which isn't too difficult at 60HP, so it stays fair). Not sure if you're interested in play patterns of this sort, but definitely an interesting space to explore.

Yeah, that is the Mew I was talking about, although if you ended up putting in the Alolan Vulpixes, it might be too weak by comparison. I was envisioning it as a starter when something like Cleffa isn't present in your opening hand, that serves as a nice little free-retreater later in the game, and every once in a while slays some Psychic-type that's weak to other Psychic types. However, most of the strong Psychic attackers are weak to Psychic, because the Dusknoir and Gengar lines are weak to Darkness instead, and it really doesn't stack up to Alolan Vulpix. That said, Alolan Vulpix is really, really good in this cube (also might cause confusion with the Ninetales), so it might be better to keep the Manaphy in instead. In this case the Mew would look a lot more reasonable, but could still end up being too weak and not worthy of being played.

I agree that SPs and LV.X's are probably more trouble than they're worth. I really like the elegance that the cube has right now, in both design and with the drafting rules you've selected.

One last note; you should probably give your Gyarados drafters two Magikarp for each Gyarados drafted, or even as many Magikarp as they want, so they can play extras and try to get them in the discard for Tail Revenge. Gyarados's other attacks aren't great, so they probably need to be able to get two Magikarp in the discard pile for it to be a really solid attacker. Also, this Magikarp: https://pkmncards.com/page/2/?s=name:magikarp&display=full&sort=date&order#images-2 might be a better one to have in your opening hand and actually start with, since it helps you set up a bit faster than the current one, and when it dies, it will be fuel for Tail Revenge.
 
GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12

I just drafted a Magnezone/Raichu deck to see if I could break the format. My main conclusion is that this drafting style had me ready to play a 60-card deck, and I think this would also tend to balance decks a bit more by making it more difficult to leverage the same deck plan every game, and improve deck variety for the same reason. Anyways, I do think the deck I drafted is pretty busted:

1625444324610.png
Trainers are: 2x Cynthia, 1x Prof Juniper, 1x Cynthia + Caitlyn, 1x Acerola, 1x Sonia, 1x Steven, 1x Guzma, 1x Acerola, 1x Pokemon Communication, 1x Ordinary Rod, 1x Rough Seas, 1x Evolution Incense. 3-3-2 Magnezone line, 3-2 Raichu line, 2-2 Claydol line. 8 Lightning Energy.

The plan is to rush to set up the Magnezone that allows you to attach as many lightning energy from your hand per turn as you want, then attack with Raichu or a Magnezone every turn until you win. The Magneton that retrieves energy from the discard is critical to this plan, and it should allow the deck to attack with Raichu two turns in a row with ease, and even attack with only Raichus the whole game beginning on turn 4 or so, assuming neither are Prized, the first one is recovered with Ordinary Rod, or if a Raichu is Prized, it is later taken. Two Claydol and a strong supporter lineup form the backbone of the deck's draw in the mid-late game, and two Cleffa, a Spiritomb and a Sableye are extremely effective starters.

I'm worried that weaker evolution lines will become irrelevant in a 40-card format, and drafts will devolve into people hate-drafting all the strongest lines. This deck is busted enough that other players would draft Raichu Primes and the infinite-lightning-energy Magnezone on sight to prevent someone from building it. I think switching to 60-cards would fix 80% of this problem, and although a variant of this deck would still be very good (quite possibly too good, in which case I would depower it a bit by replacing the second Raichu Prime with a more docile alternative), it could not be nearly so hyper-focused and powerful.
 
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blacksmithy

thanks for drafting!
that does sound like a strong deck, but i’m not convinced it’s the unrivaled BDIF when we also have Deluge Blastoise doing the same thing for any water/colorless attacker, Venusaur making all grass energy count double, Infernape hitting for 110 a turn for 2 energy, and Gyarados hitting for 90 a turn without even needing energy. and all of these have access to doubletons of the same excellent setup infrastructure. i’m not saying you’re wrong, it’s definitely a highly powerful deck, but i think most of the primary attackers either have access to similar synergy or just do good damage without needing the synergy of a specific supporting stage 2 line.
also, without rare candy and BTS in the format, both deliberate omissions, there is added time to disrupt any combos as they’re being built on the board. i think if you can successfully assemble Raichu, Magnezone, and Magneton plus a bunch of energy in hand, you deserve to win that game most of the time. that’s 3 separate evo lines to assemble to get your engine going.

EDIT: PS:
i’m gonna try Yanmega Prime as you suggested, that is a fun attacker and can make good use of Copycat.
agree with the Magikarp switch as i hate flipping coins and like basic searchers, and to confirm, despite how the cube list looks there will be 4x of each partial evo/basic available to drafters, so you can pitch 3 karp for gyarados to run correctly. so thanks again for helping me talk through all this!
 
GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12

Fair enough. I guess time will tell on how the drafts and games go in-person. It will be a ton of fun for sure!

I keep drafting the list. Will be posting the decks here using snipping tool since cubeocbra can't save them:
1625451409979.png
hidden cards: prof's letter, skyla. Running 3-3-2 Blaziken, 2-2 Ninetales, 1-1 Bewear, 1-1 Delcatty, 8 Fire

1625453145048.png
hidden cards: Juniper, Steven, Fighting Fury Belt. Running 2-2-2 Dragonite, 2-2-1 Blastoise, 1-1 Delcatty, 7 Water Energy, 2 Lighting Energy. This one uses Blastoise to power up Oranguru, Dragonite, and itself, and tries to tank Oranguru using Fighting Fury Belt, Acerola, and the healing Dragonite. Delcatty is used to setup Dig Well, although it might be better to run 1-1 Claydol and just rely on Oranguru to make sure there's at least one water energy on top of the deck.

1625454564821.png
Hidden: Juniper, Skyla, Fury Belt. Running 2-1-1 Garchomp, 4-1 Gyarados, 2-2 Claydol, 2-2 Bewear, 1 Water, 1 Fighting, 1 Psychic. Weird one, basically just beatdown with attackers Garchomp, Gyarados, Bewear, Mewtwo, and Oranguru. Was hoping to have a bigger focus on basics and a second Gyarados, but couldn't find more of those.
 
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Kirblinx

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Erik Twice said:
I just wanted to say that it's really cool to have this thread, makes me think I should work in my Netrunner cube soon!
Click to expand...
I want to echo this sentiment as I have been following this thread the entire time. My only interaction with Pokemon cards from when it first came out and the game exploded, up to about Team Rocket then the fad ran out. I remember playing the game online with the starter decks like 7 years later and having a good time. Never really played it in real life though.

I also remember reading on an old wordpress blog in uni called pokecube and this feels very similar. Man was way ahead of his time as there seems to be lots of pokecube's going around now. He has all these cool posts going 'Who's that Pokemon?' and talking about the different evolution lines that he had chosen. He also came to the same conclusion that Yanmega was the best grass Stage 1 Evo line.

I've been clicking on any link to cards that you have been posting just to see what the cards do as I am all very intregued.
I feel like I want to make one, but I know I won't have anyone to play with so probably isn't worth it.

I am just hoping to live vicariously through you guys. So just post as much as you can. Would love to see decklists if you ever get around to playing it :)
 
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blacksmithy

thanks everyone for coming in here and helping out and sharing good pokémon memories and vibes!
the rubber is finally hitting the road on this thing, as last night i ran through a mock battle to get myself and my wife refreshed on current rules, and i hope to convince her to play a full “precon” match today (skip the draft part and just jam a couple decks against each other to get a feel for the game)

my only problem is… i have no idea how many pokémon/trainers/energy to run so i’m going really deep in the tank on the precon decks
:mp:

EDIT: figured it out, got a Machamp deck and Kingdra deck made for playtesting
 
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blacksmithy

playtest went nicely! machamp put up a nice threat but kingdra was able to outmaneuver and claim two prizes at once thanks to spread for the win. decking is a real threat in the 40 card 4 prize format, which we knew going in, i’m hoping 4 recovery trainers and the few recovery pokemon abilities in the cube will be enough. i’m okay with decking happening sometimes though.
 
B

blacksmithy

CUBE DRAFT REPORT!
We had 4 players, two highly skilled regulars who ran the tables, plus me and another relative newbie. One of the regulars was a guy i remembered from when i played tournaments who’s kept at it, so it was awesome to see them again!

I got an Infernape early and moved hard into mono fire, running both Ninetales, both Infernape, both Blaziken in the final deck, with a lot of looting effects.
I went 1-2 and had a blast almost decking myself frequently.

Other decks drafted were:
3-0 Fighting/Dragons with Flygon and Garchomp and i think a Machamp line, this was my old acquaintance.
2-1 Mono Water with both Blastoise and at least one Kingdra, plus stellar support.
0-3 Grass / Colorless with Herdiers and Venusaur.
 
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