Nanonox's cube - 450 multiplayer

[Nanonox]

So we had our first draft with my updated cube and we had fun! The draft went the way I was expecting (all 3 of us splashing/playing blue).
I had an URb spells deck featuring some good fliers and a token subtheme.
One of the guys had a UWr beatdown deck with a spells matter subtheme.
The last one had a Bant midrange deck splashing blue for Persuasion and Bident of Thassa.

A few observations popped up:
- The spells matter theme is too heavy handed. It can support 2 out of 3 players!
- Fixing is really good. 40 fetchlands/duals + 10 temples with only 3 players means that 3 color+ decks are the norm.
- My players struggled finding finishers for their decks. We are used to playing big flashy cards that end the game quickly. Take them away and they panic a little.
- Each deck had a fighting chance. We played 4 games and it ended split 2-1-1 for the wins.
- Each game was dynamic with plenty of excitement. We had some comebacks and some improbable wins.
- Blue was everywhere

After the draft, I asked them how they felt about the whole thing. They enjoyed playing with some newer cards, but overall found the power level too low. When I confronted them on the fact that they were able to play those cards because of the lower power, they said that if they had to chose, they would rather go for the splashier cards.

I also told them that as things stand, blue is too powerful. That I would need to nerf some of the card drawing to give other colors their opportunity to shine. They were opposed to the idea even if it means having blue everywhere. They want to draw cards even at the cost of a more balanced environment. One player even mentioned that he would be attempting to make a mono blue cube...

So! With all that being said:
- I will try and up the overall power level of the cube, realizing full well that it means dealing with some oppressive threats.
- With those more powerful cards dominating, creating a synergy deck will be impossible or at the very least less optimal.
- Instead of synergy decks, I guess I will try to find sweet card interactions (moving the focus away from decks and onto cards).
- With blue being blatantly heads and shoulders above the rest, I think I will embrace this fully and enlarge the blue section of the cube (not sure if this should be done via multicolored cards or just blue cards).
- Cut the temple cycle from the cube. With 40 fetch/duals being distributed among 3 players, that is plenty.

I have to be honest, I'm a little disappointing to revert to power max cube, cube I will be trying to port over as many lessons I learned from this cube over to it. Got to give the people what they want! And they want big nasty finishers...
Thanks for reading

 

[whobetta]

Hey man, I'd give it more time.. let the players get more of a feel for the cards and the environment etc... 4 games and 1 draft is not enough to really make any decisions IMO.

on BLUE, i have to re-look at your section, but in mine it is NOT by any means overly powerful... because of the fact there are no real game ending bomb/flashy cards that can win you the game just by dropping it and being as blue's advantage lies is in digging and gaining card advantage while still good, isn't OP... Especially in MULTIPLAYER that doesn't always equate to a win because the other 2 can gang up on him if they so choose and without power max are still limited by the amount of mana you have available to cast spells...

the "panic" during draft or deck building is normal because there is no bomb or auto take card all the time that lets you draft "on rails"... I think its just about getting used to trying to build a cohesive deck where in a typical power cube you might think about colors and curve, but with a synergized cube you also take into account the card interaction/relationship which is another dimension of uncertainty and increases difficulty. it doesn't always "FEEL" as good due to that uncertainty and no initial payoff during the draft when you rip a huge bomb...

Just my 2 cents (even if biased)

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

In defense of your drafters, when you sit down for multi-player, most people are looking for a fun light experience. Complex board states and gorgnardy micro interactions can slow things down, and go against the spirit of the experience.

With multi-player, I generally focus on minimizing analysis paralysis (which leads to those long turns that frustrates everyone) and preventing endless board resets from wogs. The power level or synergy vs non-synergy I don't think too much about until thats established, and players are happy.

If you ultimately want to lower the power level in the face of resistence, 100% don't argue with the drafters of make them feel bad, as they will just get frustrated and start asking for something else. Its better to slow walk the power level down so they can get used to it, and if the resistence is hard, just let it go.

Remember, the metric here is fun, not logic.

 

[Nanonox]

on BLUE, i have to re-look at your section, but in mine it is NOT by any means overly powerful... because of the fact there are no real game ending bomb/flashy cards that can win you the game just by dropping it and being as blue's advantage lies is in digging and gaining card advantage while still good, isn't OP... Especially in MULTIPLAYER that doesn't always equate to a win because the other 2 can gang up on him if they so choose and without power max are still limited by the amount of mana you have available to cast spells...

Blue is OP because of the digging and card advantage. It is so much better than the rest that it's almost always correct to splash/play blue for that card advantage. This stifles the amount of viable decks as a whole which I wanted to avoid.

the "panic" during draft or deck building is normal because there is no bomb or auto take card all the time that lets you draft "on rails"... I think its just about getting used to trying to build a cohesive deck where in a typical power cube you might think about colors and curve, but with a synergized cube you also take into account the card interaction/relationship which is another dimension of uncertainty and increases difficulty. it doesn't always "FEEL" as good due to that uncertainty and no initial payoff during the draft when you rip a huge bomb...

You are right on here. With more drafts under their belts I'm sure that the drafts will be less intimidating. However, they were clearly asking for more power , so I will try and add a few more "auto-picks" to guide them into the existing archetypes. I'm not giving up on this synergy idea, but as Grillo responded above, I will try to ease them into it rather than force it upon them.
The end goal is fun!

In defense of your drafters, when you sit down for multi-player, most people are looking for a fun light experience. Complex board states and gorgnardy micro interactions can slow things down, and go against the spirit of the experience.

100% agree here. I'm actually happy about the few games that we played as each game lasted maximum 30 minutes. The boards weren't too complicated and when they were, we had ways of breaking out of the stall. What took the most time was the drafting portion which is to be expected in the face of new cards and a new card pool.

If you ultimately want to lower the power level in the face of resistence, 100% don't argue with the drafters of make them feel bad, as they will just get frustrated and start asking for something else. Its better to slow walk the power level down so they can get used to it, and if the resistence is hard, just let it go.

This is solid advice. I will add some more power while still embedding synergies. As they familiarize themselves with the cards hopefully they will see the benefits of lower power level. If not, oh well, we'll keep more power cards.

Thanks as always for the feedback guys, much appreciated!

 

[GiftsForgiven]

I'm interested in exactly what your drafters meant when they said the 'power level' of your cube was too low. Did they feel that their cards did not have a high-enough impact in-format, or did they feel that they just wanted to play more efficient creatures, regardless of the fact that their peers were on the same level? There is a big difference between the two, as the first may allow you to keep a carefully-sculpted format while still 'empowering' your players and making their decks and plays feel strong.

 

[Nanonox]

It was more of a "I want to play more efficient creatures" kind of reaction. Not sure what I can do in that case except remove the GRBS that was previously there and try to maintain some synergies as much as possible.
I'm guessing you are familiar with this with your high powered cube. Are you able to maintain some archetypes? If so which ones?

 

[GiftsForgiven]

It -is- possible to maintain archetypes in a high-powered cube. Well... that's only sort of true. What I should say is that it's possible to give your drafters incentive to draft certain archetypes. There is always the 'back door' of just doing a value draft open to drafters of a powerful cube, and many decks wind up being 'X/X Goodstuff' decks... which is fine! I think the dynamic with multiplayer is quite different than with a 1v1 cube, but I'll give a quick breakdown of 'archetypes' that I try to support in my cube.

Unfortunately, due to the sheer efficiency level of the cube, not all Archetypes can 'make it,' so to speak. 'Simic Counters' is a fun idea, but it (usually) just doesn't cut it when thrown up against the truly great cards of magic. The best Archetypes, naturally, are the ones that are best able to utilize the best creatures and spells. A lot of the Archetypes use general, overlapping cog pieces like 'big creature' or 'efficient spell' to function.

Archetype List:


Hyper Ramp

Color(s): G, U/G, Temur

Anchor Cards: Rofellos, llanowar emissary, lotus cobra, 1-drop mana dorks, oracle of mul-daya, xenagos, the reveler primeval titan,stroke of genius, genesis wave, mirari's wake, any threat over 6 CMC

Hyper Ramp is quite simple: Make a lot of mana, really fast. Do something huge. It's insanely powerful, but soft to removal. I have specifically kept cards like cultivate and kodama's reach out of my cube, preferring instead to lean on creatures for hyper-ramping needs. I like it that way, as it allows the opponent to interact by sweeping the mana dorks.

Reanimator

Color(s): U/B, B/R, B/G

Anchor Cards: griselbrand, sheoldred, whispering one, Elesh norn, grand cenobite, woodfall primus, entomb recurring nightmare, survival of the fittest, sneak attack

Reanimator should need little explanation. I've seen it drafted in every color, including W/B. It shares a lot of top-ends with the 'fatty-cheat' deck. The U/B version is classic, but the B/G version can be very powerful, as it leans on Survival of the fittest and fauna shaman to efficiently pack it's graveyard. My personal favorite version is the B/R version, which has an extra out with Sneak Attack, and it makes an absolutely devastating combo with recurring nightmare. One of my favorite decks that I've drafted!


'Big Mana'

Color(s): ???

Anchor Cards: worn powerstone, thran dynamo, gilded lotus mirari's wake consecrated sphinx

It sounds similar to 'Hyper Ramp,' but it's more focused on artifact mana. It can dip into any color, really and prefers colorless win conditions, such as Ugin or the Myr Battleball. It closely crosses over with the Artifact deck, as the artifact deck has alternate ways of putting it's win conditions into play (daretti, goblin welder). It often splashes blue, as it vomits it's hand out at a furious pace, and likes having ways to refill and restock.

Artifacts

Colors: Grixis

Anchor Cards: metalworker, tezzeret, agent of bolas, goblin welder, Daretti, Scrap Savant, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Mana rocks, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering titan Mindslaver sphinx of the steel wind, inkwell leviathan

The 'artifact' deck is a very flexible one. It can have a reanimator bent with a heavy red influence, or be more of a hyper-ramp deck with a bunch of mana rocks and metalworker. It shares a good amount of cards with reanimator and 'fatty cheat,' and makes especially good use of the artifact top-end cards.

It's worth noting that metalworker has been quite hit or miss for me in practice. I'm not entirely sure that I have enough artifacts to truly make it work, but when it does... oh boy.

Fatty-Cheat

Color(s): Temur

Anchor Cards: Show and Tell, Sneak attack, pattern of rebirth, survival of the fittest

This deck simply seeks to cheat in gigantic creatures for a fraction of their cost. It's very similar to the Hyper-Ramp deck, but is more 'combo' in nature. It is worth noting that there are some 'nut' hands that can cast a Show and Tell as early as turn 1. There are a fair number of 'trap' cards for this deck to be wary of in this cube, such as Dragonlord Silumgar, Oblivion Ring, Sower of temptation, Karakas, etc. to balance it out. I originally had natural order in the cube instead of pattern of rebirth, but I got some salty feedback, so I decided to swap it for something that took a bit more work to pull off.

It is worth noting that all the archetypes listed above do share and swap from the same pool of Top-End creatures (the Artifact deck excepted, in some cases).

Tokens

Color(s): U/X

Anchor Cards: secure the wastes, monastery mentor, honor of the pure opposition deranged hermit, assemble the legion, purphoros, god of the forge, bitterblossom

Tokens are a solid part of this cube, and have great options in every color. They also form the backbone of several wildly different archetypes that aim to abuse them, which I will go through here instead of listing separately.
The first among these is the 'opposition' deck, built around the namesake card. It comes in both Azorius and Simic flavors; simic being the better color combination in my mind due to the powerful impact of T1 mana dorks. It's a great deck, and can easily lock one's opponent out while also having a nice beatdown 'plan B.'
The second is the 'Pox' archetype. It's anchor cards are braids, cabal minion, smokestack and attrition. It uses tokens as fodder for sacrifice, and especially loves cards that can produce tokens every turn at no cost (like planeswalkers!). Ideally, you will be able to aggressively deprive your opponent of resources, while staying ahead on board.

Aggro (White):

Color(s): W/x

Anchor Cards: brimaz, king of oreskos, mirran crusader, mother of runes, stoneforge mystic, 'The Swords'

It's white weenies! The 'Swords' being anchor cards are kind of a misnomer, as they're good in virtually any deck- but white's access to ol' Stoneforge Mystic does make them an even more attractive proposition. In more powerful versions of the cube, such lists would also employ Armageddon, winter orb and other stax effects to stay ahead on board. The original iteration of this cube had them, and while I don't think they were incredibly oppressive, I received a lot of negative 'feel bad' feedback from them... so I cut them!

Red Deck Wins:

Color: Red. Just Red.

Anchor Cards: lightning bolt, chain lightning, koth of the hammer, shrine of burning rage, fireblast, goblin guide

This version of Aggro should need no introduction. Count to 20, as fast as you can!

Mono-Black:

Color: Black

Anchor Cards: vampire nighthawk, phyrexian obliterator, gray merchant of asphodel

Mono-black is a midrange deck with powerful, above-curve plays. It can add a dash of reanimator spice, or also include a bunch of mana rocks and sneak into an artifact subtype (as 'colorless' essentially functions as a second color pairing that doesn't dick over your Obliterator). It's a fun deck to play, and I think it's gotten a fair bit better with the printing of Yaheeni's expertise.

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Holy crap, I started this and did NOT realize how long it would take. There's a ton more archetypes, and I don't really have the time to go through them all atm, but I wanted to leave you with this. Saturday night, I will come back and finish off this breakdown... and then add it to my Cube thread, which really should already have this >.>