General Old-schoolify planeswalkers (by turning them into a "normal" card type)

[Ferritovore]

A few cube lists on here mention that they don't run planeswalkers, or simply that they don't like planeswalkers.

As for me I could take 'em or leave 'em - they're cool, and in theory you interact with them via creatures and they don't run away with the game. Although if they're left to +1 endlessly without interaction not only do they get a bunch of card advantage from those activations, but they also get an emblem that says win the game. So I can see how that would be annoying, but it probably doesn't come up often.

Anyway, whether you love walkers or hate 'em, here's a fun little game you can try: convert them into another card type!

So far this is my favorite one, in part because it didn't need a ton of text to represent the typical use case for ol' Ob. Though in part that's just Ob's great original design shining through; other Walkerchantments were a bigger headache to make because the original walker is a big headache.

Submit your own designs, check out Alex's designs or mine, or read more here:
information: http://www.magicmultiverse.net/cardsets/1169
vis. spoiler: http://www.magicmultiverse.net/cardsets/1169/visualspoiler

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I'ld probably go this route for a semi-faithful translation, though planeswalkers have a tendency to get lengthy.

 

[Chris Taylor]

You and I use Garruk Wildspeaker very differently
He's basically beasterblossom in my hands

 

[Onderzeeboot]

You and I use Garruk Wildspeaker very differently
He's basically beasterblossom in my hands

I put the plus ability as an activated ability, the minor minus ability as a death trigger, and the ultimate as, well, an ultimate ability. I agree that makes for a slightly different card

 

[ahadabans]

I like those creature walkers. Maybe add text that a walker that is ascended is indestructible. Feels correct from a flavor perspective.

I'd honestly consider running something along those lines. A bit heavy on the text but not sure there's a good solution for that.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Theres also rebalancing to be done given that these don't have the downsides of being attacked as free removal

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I like those creature walkers. Maybe add text that a walker that is ascended is indestructible. Feels correct from a flavor perspective.

I'd honestly consider running something along those lines. A bit heavy on the text but not sure there's a good solution for that.

Alternatively you could do the plus ability as an enters the battlefield ability, and both minus abilities as activated ability. As a creature they are more vulnerable after all. I like the indestructible suggestion, but that would mean some planeswalkers take way longer to gain indestructible than others. Don't know if I'm a fan of that. Let'try it though!

Also, kind of the point of this whole thing is to reimagine planeswalkers as another card type that is more easily handled in Magic. I think it's okay to tweak the stats and abilities a bit to make interesting cards that are reminiscent of their reimagined characters and interesting to play! I also think that, because these are creatures, they are inherently weaker than planeswalkers. Every color has answers to creatures! Even green nowadays!



PS. Jace's activation cost was off by a mile, I forgot he has a +2 >_> Oops!

PPS. These really are neo-titans with these etb or attacks triggers. Better bodies though

 

[ahadabans]

Theres also rebalancing to be done given that these don't have the downsides of being attacked as free removal

You might be OK on that simply because they are creatures so die to doom blade, wrath, etc. I always felt that the ability to attack walkers directly was a band aid for the fact that they couldn't be interacted with otherwise (they might as well be emblems with activated abilities).

Some balancing is probably required though because ultimates tend to win games and you'd have no way to stop them outside a creature kill spell. So I don't know.

 

[ahadabans]

Really cool designs Onderzeeboot. I'm a fan. If I ran customs, I'd really consider something like this.

 

[Ferritovore]

10 lines of text for Onderzeechandra... that is precisely why I was whittling them down to two iconic abilities. But you do you, man, you've already got a fan!

Actually, it's probably important to lobotomize these guys a little when turning them into enchantments, since those can't be damaged. But creatures, they're so murderable! Might as well squeeze in all 3 abilities!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

10 lines of text for Onderzeechandra... that is precisely why I was whittling them down to two iconic abilities. But you do you, man, you've already got a fan!

Actually, it's probably important to lobotomize these guys a little when turning them into enchantments, since those can't be attacked. But creatures, they're so murderable! Might as well squeeze in all 3 abilities!

Yeah, ten lines is kinda the limit. Which is a problem, because I forgot the "You can choose new targets for the copies" line on Chandra. That ultimate really needs to be reinvented

 

[ahadabans]

The first versions are my favorite. Trigger on death, tap for the + ability, and then spark to ascended for ultimate. Simple design and flavorful. Garruk in particular has this Call of the Herd throwback feel that really appeals to me.

I would probably take creative license though and not stick strictly to the original designs in most cases (Garruk is perfect though). Specifically, I'd only use the weakest ultimates (or make entirely new ones that don't just win the game) and stick to having only a single ability that taps for the spark. And really to keep the text box from being this offensive thing like Animate Dead.

I've not played with any of the new walkers, but just reading them it seems like many of the abilities are over/underpowered. I also don't think you'd want to have 20 of these in your cube (one per color is probably correct, though maybe you could go with two?). So I'd make "best of" versions and balance them with casting cost and power/toughness. Multi-colored walkers feel wrong to me, even more so than the single colored ones. But I'm probably just biased.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Multi-colored walkers feel wrong to me, even more so than the single colored ones. But I'm probably just biased.

I think you can do great multicolor translations as well, for what it's worth! Tell me you do not love my chum Sorin!



Also, thanks for the kind words I do like how gaining indestructible synergizes nicely with the second batch's attack trigger, and they also incentivize you to use the creatures more as, well, creatures would be used. On the other hand it's probably better if their minus abilities can't trigger too often, because that's what makes planeswalkers such enormous card advantage machines in the first place.

Edit: You could also mash the two "templates" together of course:



Then again, this looks like a value train as well, with both an etb and a dies trigger o_O Yeah, maybe the first template is the best one. You get a consolation price if they kill the creature on sight, and you can slowly build towards a cool one-shot effect if they don't.

 

[ahadabans]

Yeah, this is a really cool idea. Keep these coming.

On the multi-colored walker thing... here's where I think my objections stems and I'm not sure it's got a solid rationale. Multi-colored sections are tiny (3-4 cards) and to some extent what you run there will pigeonhole your color combination (or at least send super strong signals whether you intend to or not). I'm always nervous about running narrow gold cards because it just feels like bad design. I want people getting creative with WR not just auto-drafting Boros Deck Wins. Walkers feel iconic and representative and so I just think they contribute to the narrow color combination thing. Again, I don't run them and never have, so it's possible this is just my bias against the card type talking.

 

[ahadabans]

Hey, I just realized the spark tokens work with proliferate too. That's sweet. Semi pitches to force?

 

[Ferritovore]

Just reposting these here in easy look-it's-an-image format:

 

[ahadabans]

The bottom got cut off on that picture. In my browser anyway.

I'm still not sure I like these as enchantments (pretty sure I don't in fact). Main reasons:

1. Walkers look like people and so "creature" feels like a better card type.
2. Enchantments are pretty un-interactive. One of the reasons I cut stuff like Jitte and Recuring Nightmare is because they are really powerful effects with minimal ways to remove them. Creatures don't suffer that problem simply because there is a lot more creature removal in your average cube.

 

[Ferritovore]

RIght on, thanks for the notes!

 

[Ferritovore]

Next step: enchantments are ALSO un-interactive, so convert them all into creatures and artifacts!

 

[ahadabans]

Next step: enchantments are ALSO un-interactive, so convert them all into creatures and artifacts!

On a serious note, I truly believe this is problematic. Enchantment removal is very conditional primarily because the density of that card type is very low. Cards like Wispmare look like garbage against decks with no target, but is very good if there is a target. This is the same problem with artifacts honestly, but there tend to be a more of those in your average list. Power max cubes with moxen, jitte, swords, etc have an advantage as well since virtually every deck has an artifact target. Manic Vandal is basically always a 2 for 1.

I'd love to see more cards with modal effects. Like this perhaps.

Phyrexian Vandal
2R
When ~ ETB, destroy target artifact or draw a card.
2/2

If we could go back in time and influence early Magic design, we may have benefited from not just more cards like the above but also artifacts and enchantments sharing a type (say "Relic", and the sub type - enchantment/artifact/aura just gave it more characteristics). And then your removal could be consolidated and less narrow.

 

[Ferritovore]

For what it's worth, without looking too closely at the results:

In Modern, there are 179 cards that mention "artifact" as well as either "destroy or exile". 117 such results for "enchantment". So I do believe that changing ench to arti would make the game more interactive, if that were actually a trivial thing to do. For planeswalker the number is only 47, incidentally.

Also, color pie wise, WRG fairly frequently have the ability to destroy artifacts, U has some various weird interactions with artis, more than it has with enchants at least, which only leaves mono black decks out of the loop. Whereas R and B both have virtually no direct enchant-interactions, and U is pretty much limited to bouncing enchants.

Dig the Relic idea by the way. It's fun to imagine what this game would be like without the baggage and sacred cows that it's dragging behind it like so many semi-sentient cyst-spawns.

 

[Ferritovore]

Phyrexian Vandal
2R
When ~ ETB, destroy target artifact or draw a card.

Oh also, don't forget that scry is evergreen now! So if you don't necessarily want to make something a full cantrip, you can always slap a scry 1 or 2 on there instead of a card!

Although, I think sometimes I'd rather have scry 2 than draw 1? But anyhoo yeh, scry 1! Or a free thopter? Free thopter might be a flavor win.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Yeah, this is a really cool idea. Keep these coming.

On the multi-colored walker thing... here's where I think my objections stems and I'm not sure it's got a solid rationale. Multi-colored sections are tiny (3-4 cards) and to some extent what you run there will pigeonhole your color combination (or at least send super strong signals whether you intend to or not). I'm always nervous about running narrow gold cards because it just feels like bad design. I want people getting creative with WR not just auto-drafting Boros Deck Wins. Walkers feel iconic and representative and so I just think they contribute to the narrow color combination thing. Again, I don't run them and never have, so it's possible this is just my bias against the card type talking.

This line of reasoning seems off to me. First of all, being iconic and representative of a color pair is good, because that means the planeswalker generally does what that color combination aims to do. Secondly, because planeswalkers inherently offer multiple abilities, they inherently offer multiple lines of play, and are good for gameplay on that axis. Planeswalkers are, however, kinda hard to deal with, gravitate naturally towards control decks, because they are untouched by sweepers. They are also the card type most likely to snowball (virtual) card advantage. All of this means I can relate to the OP's wish to remove planeswalkers from their cube. It's something I have been contemplating as well to be honest, so this topic resonated with me. I've never thought of reimagining the planeswalkers as another card type, but it's pretty fun to do! The cool thing is they're still recognizable as planeswalkers, still powerful, but easier to deal with, and less likely to snowball, which is exactly the point!

So... rambling aside...

 

[ahadabans]

Man these are so cool.

 

[Lucre]

Make them artifact enchantments with tap abilities or modal spells with rebuy abilities people come on lads you know this stuff...