Onderzeeboot's Khans of Alara WUBGR Cube

Liking the look of things! How about making Zotan more sac-oriented, like a symmetrical pox effect? Maybe make it 2{B/R}{B/R}: each player sacs a creature? Might have to move it to your end step, maybe. Also, Murderous Mystic absolutely deserves a flavor text!
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Well Relentless King is the clear winner in the art department! :p

For reference, Speaker should likely exile the creature, probably the way imprint does. Seems unwieldly memory wise otherwise
 
I like some of these cards but I feel like a number of them don't have to be 3 colour and if they were not they would shaft fewer players during a draft. A 360 card 10 3-colour-combinations set might just work out fairly but any bigger than that and you are gonna have wildly unsupported combinations in packs and decks are gonna be very power level spikey, many just excited to get their 3rd-4th colour available so they can start casting overwhelmingly powerful 4-6 drops in succession lol.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
For reference, Speaker should likely exile the creature, probably the way imprint does. Seems unwieldly memory wise otherwise
It's a Body Double that also zombifies a creature. I don't really see where the memory issue would come in, and since it reanimates the creature it copies, imprinting it won't work. Could you clarify what you mean?

I like some of these cards but I feel like a number of them don't have to be 3 colour and if they were not they would shaft fewer players during a draft. A 360 card 10 3-colour-combinations set might just work out fairly but any bigger than that and you are gonna have wildly unsupported combinations in packs and decks are gonna be very power level spikey, many just excited to get their 3rd-4th colour available so they can start casting overwhelmingly powerful 4-6 drops in succession lol.
It's going to be a 450 card 5 3-color-combinations set. There is no Grixis in this cube, for example. That alone makes this structure more sustainable. All the mana fixing is going towards supporting either one of the five guilds, or one of the five shards. In theory there could be a shortage of mana fixing for a particular shard, but so far that hasn't been a problem in the previous iterations of my Khans of Alara cube, even when drafting with only four people.

I also agree that not all of the cards need to be three colors, but this whole cube is an experiment in supporting the guilds and shards of an alternate color wheel. Taking away the three-color cards defeats that purpose. The important thing is that these cards feel like they could be three colors, and that a player gets rewarded if he plays those three-color cards (i.e. they should be stronger on average than the mono-colored section).

That said, these cards should still be fair. If anything jumps out at you guys as Grave Titan-level CRBS, please say so! Like, the new Speaker of the Dead might be a mana too cheap? I don't know, it's kinda hard to gauge :)
 
I feel like games are gonna be like "I have 4 untapped lands that are the right colours now, time for an endless stream of siege rhinos with the occasional 2 colour removal spells thrown in" An awful lot like abzan vs midrange decks in standard lol. I guess you could probably also try to play 5 colour removal spells. Who can keep playing multicolour spells longest.

I also worry that you are gonna have a huge difference in card quality between the boarderland rangers you are sure to be cubing and the multicolour bombs that are necessary to incentivize playing an awful 3 colour deck.

An aggro deck seems like it might be okay against this dynamic but drafting one seems awful in an environment devoted to 3 colours.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I feel like games are gonna be like "I have 4 untapped lands that are the right colours now, time for an endless stream of siege rhinos with the occasional 2 colour removal spells thrown in" An awful lot like abzan vs midrange decks in standard lol. I guess you could probably also try to play 5 colour removal spells. Who can keep playing multicolour spells longest.

I also worry that you are gonna have a huge difference in card quality between the boarderland rangers you are sure to be cubing and the multicolour bombs that are necessary to incentivize playing an awful 3 colour deck.

An aggro deck seems like it might be okay against this dynamic but drafting one seems awful in an environment devoted to 3 colours.

Well, we got a challenge on our hands then, haven't we? I have done my best to include aggro-friendly lands in previous iteration, and aggro certainly was viable there. There's always drafters that pick up every land they see and try to play five-color good stuff, and, well.. That's okay too I guess? They'll lose to the aggro decks and consistent three-color decks mostly :) Also, it's not as if the monocolored spells have to be weak, just that playing three colors should be awesome in this cube. I mean, where's the fun in playing a monocolored deck in the original Ravnica? And the monocolored spells were really a lot worse in that block then they are in my cube ;)

However, your worries are noted, and when this project is nearing completion, as well as during the first few plays, it's worth checking out how the cube plays, and if the multicolored cards aren't too powerful!

Also, new cards. Old Zotan and Yidisi out, new Zotan and Whirlpool of Creation in?

Edit: Oh, and the final fuse spell!

Zotan%20the%20Conquerer_1.png
Whirlpool%20of%20Creation_2.png
Skull-Bones.png


Edit: Updated Zotan and the Whirlpool!
 
Zotan's land-stealing ability is kind of strange to see on a Jund card, kinda sticks out. I can't really rack my brain for anything really interesting though, I think Jund, then +1/+1 counters, then Kresh. What if you return sacrificed creatures instead of lands?

Also, does Whirpool really need to return tapped? 6 mana is a lot to keep up to bring back something at opponent's EOT, and it's also a ton to invest in a play that won't pay off till the next turn. Unless you have plans to put in some really really good reanimation targets, should be fine just returning.
 
I knew a lot of people who drafter RG or GW aggro almost exclusively in dissension draft to prey on the 3-4 colour flight of fancy style decks.
I would usually always go boros pack one so I wasn't such easy prey but it really helped that those enchantress aggro decks were around because it kept the games from becoming too much like durdle cold wars. I think it's kinda like how people were grateful to have red burn decks and white land destruction decks around in the old days of dragon cubes.

Is Zotan some sort of joke about Conan? You know Howard killed himself at the age of 30 right?
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Zotan's land-stealing ability is kind of strange to see on a Jund card, kinda sticks out. I can't really rack my brain for anything really interesting though, I think Jund, then +1/+1 counters, then Kresh. What if you return sacrificed creatures instead of lands?

Also, does Whirpool really need to return tapped? 6 mana is a lot to keep up to bring back something at opponent's EOT, and it's also a ton to invest in a play that won't pay off till the next turn. Unless you have plans to put in some really really good reanimation targets, should be fine just returning.

Well, sacrificing lands is usually the easiest, come a certain part of a match, so I wanted to make that option a little bit less appealing. It's a bit strange, but it's also pretty unique, and fun to play around with I think. Combines well with Tectonic Edge for example. I could make it "put a +1/+1 counter on Zotan" instead, when they sacrifice a land. I agree that +1/+1 counters can be a Jund thing.

I made Whirlpool return tapped because it can tap for mana itself (by untapping a land), lowering the virtual cost of the first activation to {3}{W/B}{W/B}, and because I don't really want anyone to plop a blocker onto the battlefield mid-combat. Returning it to play tapped makes it a lot less taxing to figure out what is going to happen in combat, and a little less time-consuming to play because it doesn't really matter. I would have put in "Activate this ability only any time you can cast a sorcery", but "... tapped" was way shorter :)

I knew a lot of people who drafter RG or GW aggro almost exclusively in dissension draft to prey on the 3-4 colour flight of fancy style decks.
I would usually always go boros pack one so I wasn't such easy prey but it really helped that those enchantress aggro decks were around because it kept the games from becoming too much like durdle cold wars. I think it's kinda like how people were grateful to have red burn decks and white land destruction decks around in the old days of dragon cubes.

Is Zotan some sort of joke about Conan? You know Howard killed himself at the age of 30 right?
Yeah, aggro has to be an option. Boros should have you covered there, and Gruul can also lay down the beats.

Also, who is Howard? Joke about Conan? Am I missing something? [reads Wiki] Oh, the author of Conan. Uh, I still don't see the joke?

A final one for the night to complete the Esper cards; the CDE 3-drop in Esper colors! This looks pretty mean, but then again, it's not much better than Plumeveil (right?), and that's an uncommon!

Lingering%20Legion.png


I have to find some other wording. This was copied off of Souls of the Faultless, but that has defender... Then again, this working better on defense is kinda flavorful for a "Guard", so maybe I'll keep it this way?

Edit: Updated Lingering Guard (now Lingering Legion) with possibly relevant creature type (Warrior) and better wording. And flavor text.
 

Laz

Developer
I have some concerns about Zotan. Specifically, all of the cards in my cube have the same sleeves. How do you remember to give back the stolen lands?! I have enough issues with Pacifism/O. Ring as it is...

Lingering Guard looks cool, and feels Esper. Not sure on the wording, but here are some options:
"Whenever Lingering Guard is dealt combat damage, you gain that much life and target opponent loses that much life." - Use 'each opponent' if you never play multiplayer/are worried about players having Hexproof
If you want it on defense:
"Whenever Lingering Guard blocks, gain life equal to the power of the creature it is blocking. The attacking player loses that much life."
Or simply a static value:
"Whenever Lingering Guard blocks, gain X life, the attacking player loses X life."

Or something stupid like:
"Lifelink
Whenever Lingering Guard is dealt damage, it deals that much damage to target player"
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
That's a good one! Ok, probably switching over to the +1/+1 counter suggestion.

For the wording I came up with "Whenever a creature deals combat damage to ~, you gain that much life, and that creature's controller loses that much life." Changing the name to Lingering Legion because I like alliteration and it better represents a card that can attack as well :)

Tonight though, it's gonna be a while before I start up my laptop again...

I also worry Whirlpool of Creation is too unsolvable now that it is no longer a creature. There's three colors with answers, but still... How are you going to lose once you can replay your best creature each turn? Probably going to up the activation cost to {5}{W/B}{W/B}.
 

Laz

Developer
I also worry Whirlpool of Creation is too unsolvable now that it is no longer a creature. There's three colors with answers, but still... How are you going to lose once you can replay your best creature each turn? Probably going to up the activation cost to {5}{W/B}{W/B}.

Require a sacrifice? Life payments? Cumulative upkeep?! The world is your oyster.

Given the art and name, I would like to see some non-optional cost, as though everything is being sucked into the whirlpool. Cumulative upkeep feels right for that.

Er.... ok, cumulative upkeep is optional, but it does certainly feel like things are spiralling out of control fast.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Require a sacrifice? Life payments? Cumulative upkeep?! The world is your oyster.

Given the art and name, I would like to see some non-optional cost, as though everything is being sucked into the whirlpool. Cumulative upkeep feels right for that.

Er.... ok, cumulative upkeep is optional, but it does certainly feel like things are spiralling out of control fast.

Cumulative upkeep -- Put the top card of your library into your graveyard.

That sounds awesome :)

X = 1: 1 (turn 3) > 3 (turn 4) > 6 (turn 5, first activation) > 10 (turn 6) > 15 (turn 7) > 21 (turn 8, tricky) > 28 (turn 9, dead if you don't sac it, so activate before not paying upkeep)
X = 2: 2 > 6 > 10 > 18 > 28 (dead)

Obviously X = 2 is too fast, so X = 1 is the right number. If you play it on turn 2, you can activate it five times. Is that enough? You can always play it later to activate it more often. Yeah, I like this idea Laz, solid!
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Right, updates! Zotan and Whirlpool got suggested tweaks. Thanks! I only now noticed you can untap the reanimated creature with Whirlpool of Creation. Neat!

I also wasn't digging the Esper fuse spell, so I made a new one. (Cat should be capitalized, but I'm not going to upload a new mock just for that :p)

And then there's the final Jeskai spell, which I think is quite cute. I don't know if it's very good, but man, chaining spells off of this must be a feel-good moment, right?

Zotan%20the%20Conquerer_1.png
Whirlpool%20of%20Creation_2.png
Null-Void.png
Magebonded%20Knight_1.png
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
And filling the last gaps...

Defiling%20Druid.png
Woodland%20Heretic.png
Fierce%20Nacatl.png
Hexpulse%20Hawker.png


So, now that the picture is complete, are there any 3-color cards that feel off? Not interesting, too good, too weak?

The Esper, Sultai and Jund cards can be found here.
The Naya and Jeskai cards can be found here.

Thanks for all the feedback and comments so far everyone, definitely led to some improvements!
 
You are in fact paying 3 mana a turn and you have to be able to attack into the board state, but maybe you could change the timing of Zoltans ability to "whenever ~ deals combat damage"?
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
You are in fact paying 3 mana a turn and you have to be able to attack into the board state, but maybe you could change the timing of Zoltans ability to "whenever ~ deals combat damage"?
I would like Zotan to receive the counter before he deals combat damage, I think the decision on what to sac is more meaningful that way. Is there a specific reason why you think it should trigger on dealing combat damage?

is the Jeskai guy being able to chain every spell you've played so far intentional?
Good catch, there's a "if you cast it from your hand" missing!

Edit: Hmm... I actually had that line on the card at some point, but I went back and forth on the wording because of the limited space in the textbox. It must have fell off at some point, but now I've got to find room for it again. I think the converted casting cost restriction is important, to prevent Brainstorm into Violent Ultimatum and nonsense like that, am I right? Maybe see if Spelltwin's wording shaves off some characters, or else not use the reminder text on prowess? I like reminder text though, it keeps people from having to ask "what does this mean" during a draft.
 
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