General Pack Size

Without having tested it, I like that my suggestion puts more total cards from the cube in the pod's hands. Even though each individual drafter sees slightly less unique cards, my intuition is that this ends up supporting niche archetypes better than the regular 3 x 15 draft.
This is an interesting situation, and honestly I'm not sure what way this would go regarding niche archetypes... The basic question in my mind is: Is the "unique cards per person" or "total amount of cube drafted" more important to niche archetypes?

The answer might be more multifaceted than "well A/B is better obvs". For one thing, there is more than one kind of what we are calling "niche archetypes". Here are a few variants I can think of:
1. One card (or a small handful) that take a section of the cube and single-handedly reflavor it into something unique. I think Feldon of the Third Path is a decent example of this. He can, with relatively few drafting changes, shift the flavor of a {R}{G} or {R}{W} deck. Combined with a couple pieces of redundancy like finale of devastation or Jason's new fave Reveillark and a little bit of support and you get this cool value reanimation shell where you might have had a more "vanilla" midrange archetype before.
2. An archetype that is more reliant on a set of otherwise unique cards to function, or has special requirements that you wouldn't otherwise need to consider when drafting a "normal" archetype. A decent example is an artifacts-matter deck. Decks where a more significant portion of the deck are specialized towards it's niche goal. Storm would be an extreme example.
3. Three color cards might have their own variant on this spectrum, as they are by definition more "niche" than a one or two color card, but don't necessarily fit into either niche category above. But similar to the above, a drafter is less likely to swivel into the three color deck if they aren't already in two of those colors and/or if it's too late into the draft to safely build out the support for that third color.

How I think the two numerical totals being pondered affect things:
Unique cards per person: One individual drafter will have better luck searching the contents of the draft for the specialized pieces they need. This helps with my niche types 2 and 3, as it helps the player dig up the critical mass of artifacts and specialized artifact support they need for their artifact deck (to draw from the example given above), and it would help with searching for things like fixing and dual lands to help with getting into a third color.

Total cards drafted: The pod will see more of what the cube has to offer. This helps with my niche type 1 (and 3 to a degree). There's a higher chance that someone at the table will see that one creative piece that spurs them to taking their deck in a new direction. The Feldon, or the Borborygmos Enraged, or the Gisa and Geralf, or the Jeskai Ascendancy or what have you.

There's the obvious answer of "well more of both is best duh", but I don't know if that's actually the best for everyone's goals.

Then there's the point Mordor brought up, which is "what is the impact of the wheeling component?" What is the difference in deck compositions between seeing 100% of the cube and never wheeling vs. seeing 50% of the cube and wheeling each pack once?
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I've been experimenting with
Cube size of 192 (with extra cards from the idea of Japahn's Cube Occassionals)
2 Packs of 12 or 13 (haven't settled on what I like more yet)
Every card comes with a free duplicate of itself
(I haven't done this in person yet obviously, but I have played with it a few different times on Cockatrice and such).

I settled on this cuz I was about to up my Cube size from 360 to 480 (or even larger) cuz my format uses a total of 30 cards for decks. And going from about 23 picks to +7 created a ton of messes. Just a lot of Jank and not enough glue to hold it all together. So obviously if 30 picks for decks, I would need to go from 15 card packs to 20. Cuz about half of the cards you pick end up in your deck. But my power level is pretty low, so I had the thought "I'm going to have to double and triple some of my cards because there's not enough card support for my power level". Which led to my next thought "...what if I split it in half and double everything so that my players don't have to suffer through picking cards 60 times?" And of course this thought came in the middle of the night when I was trying to sleep. :rolleyes:

So what I've found so far with this.
Decks feel a lot more like constructed decks BUT are limited by the power-band of the Cube, and is much more ripe for Janky weird Cube decks that we know and love
Games tend to be a lot faster
Sideboarding is actually a thing that happens and not something that people talk about doing
You don't need as much removal because everything is doubled, but I've been thinking about adding more janky removal just so that there's no potential for hoarding.
(Maybe even a utility removal draft using stuff like the lessons from strixhaven)
Because of the size of the Cube it feels a lot like a set that you're drafting a lot with friends and figuring out what is good and great, creating a quick meta that'll evolve overnight.
It's a lot easier to see problem cards and go "yeah that card is a little too good for what I'm going for", and you pretty much see immediate results for cards you are testing.

I've been having fun with it, but sometimes people don't want their Cubes to feel like Constructed decks, they want them to feel like Cube decks. Also obviously since you guys likely don't need 30 cards, rather than 12 - 13, I think 11 - 12 picks would be fine
I know that's lower than the usual 23, but that's a rough guesstimate, I have more issues cutting cards than wondering what cards to add to my deck when constructing

Here's a fun deck that I made just to show an example decklist (bots are bad at picking though, so this is like a best case scenario)

Return to Abzan

Creatures (16)
Viscera Seer
Blisterpod
Doomed Traveler
Lampad of Death's Vigil
Grateful Apparition
Brindle Shoat
Extricator of Sin
Vesperlark

Enchantments (2)
Abzan Ascendancy

Spells (6)
Harm's Way
Return to the Ranks
Sevinne's Reclamation

Lands (16)
Sandsteppe Citadel
Plains
Forest
Swamp

Sideboard (10)
Ghave, Guru of Spores
Boneyard Lurker
Narnam Renegade
Faerie Guidemother // Gift of the Fae
Teyo, the Shieldmage

Which is a much worse version of this deck
 
Doubling up seems very interesting! I think it's been mentioned a couple of times, but I don't know if anyone had actually implemented it.

It condenses draft decisions into fewer and more meaningful ones and ensures density of build arounds and archetypes. I think (with no bias at all :D ) occasionals are a nice touch there, since they prevent the meta from being too simple and spawn archetypes more easily when doubled up.
 
I used to draft with 4 boosters of 12 cards years back in a 540 cube, and I think I did it again a couple of times after moving countries. I didn't want the whole cube available at a time, you could interact more with both sides of the draft, and the extra 3 cards could be geared towards better mana or sideboard plans. My experience was always the same: By the point that the 4th booster pack arrives, everyone already has a good idea of what deck they want to play, and the last pack is in the way of having fun. Even my friends that were super into the drafting part of the game were burned out by pack 4. It's also why I also never cared for trying implementing the utility land draft.

Don't you folks that run more than 3 packs don't experience players getting burned out of drafting?

In terms of having packs wheeling, I feel like it's really nice to see cards come around at least once. I got many drafts with 3 boosters of 15 cards at tables with only 4 players, and it feels really nice when that card you almost picked comes again for the third time. Players feel like they get really lucky, or that they read the draft well. It also felt much easier on newer players when cards wheel more, because they gain familiarity with the cards during the first picks, and the last portion of the draft goes much smoother. With more boosters with less cards, it was more individual cards for new players to get used to, and less chances to strategize about picking or wheeling them (or just feel lucky to see it come back). The few times I drafted with 10 players or more, if felt really boring that nothing interesting would ever wheel, so it didn't even felt like a draft.

On top of that, I don't think I'd ever go over 45 cards in a single draft pool again outside of a gimmick cube again. I remember even increasing the land count of my cube multiple times to make the deckbuilding choices easier at the end of the drafting after I got back to 3 boosters of 15, and nobody ever felt like they missed just one more card to make their deck tick. The math I made was that the drafters needed about 17 cards to maindeck, 5~9 nonbasics (depending on the amount of colors they played), and 3-5 cards for sideboarding. That leaves about 15 picks for speculation picks, last picks, hate picks, etc.


I think this is all to say that I haven't been a big fan of changing pack sizes for the last 10 years or so :D BUT! One thing that I'm completely baffled that is not discussed more openly (and relates to lots of problems and solutions that pack sizes deal with) is SEEDING PACKS. I feel like if you are not seeding boosters, preparing them to have at least a card of each color, a colorless, a multicolored land, and a multicolored nonland, then you are not maximizing the draft experience for your players. I think seeding booster packs has been the most important design change I've ever made throughout all the time I've been cubing, and the best part is that it is completely invisible to the players! No added layers of complexity for new players!

Besides guaranteeing cards for each color, a land, etc, I've also used seeding to guarantee that the cards that I had the most need for testing would be in the first pack. It helped me try out new archetypes, or just bring an aspect of seasonality to the cube, without needing to build a whole new cube. For example, there was the time we tried out the new War of the Sparks and Modern Horizon cards and there was way too many planeswalkers, and the cube went from aggressive tempo-based to grindy advantage-based with just about 25 cards changed; or the time that we tried adding the Power 9 just to play with the cards.

Seeding boosters is also why I'm completely in love with Cube Cobra now. This is my booster setup:
SETUP: There are exactly 16 cards with the tag "test pool". Less than that and cube cobra throws an error.

First booster:
booster01.PNG
Second and third booster:
booster02.PNG

Some things that I want to try out with seeding boosters, but haven't yet:
• Frontload strong archetype anchors to the first booster (especially the ones that you REALLY need to build the deck around)
• Have a slot in each booster (so about 24 cards in a regular draft) dedicated to one or two parasitic archetypes and see if it flies (something like poison, affinity, cycling-matters).
 
Don't you folks that run more than 3 packs don't experience players getting burned out of drafting?
Yes. "Oh god, we're not done yet?"

In terms of having packs wheeling, I feel like it's really nice to see cards come around at least once. I got many drafts with 3 boosters of 15 cards at tables with only 4 players, and it feels really nice when that card you almost picked comes again for the third time. Players feel like they get really lucky, or that they read the draft well. It also felt much easier on newer players when cards wheel more, because they gain familiarity with the cards during the first picks, and the last portion of the draft goes much smoother. With more boosters with less cards, it was more individual cards for new players to get used to, and less chances to strategize about picking or wheeling them (or just feel lucky to see it come back). The few times I drafted with 10 players or more, if felt really boring that nothing interesting would ever wheel, so it didn't even felt like a draft.
Can echo both these feelings too.

When I asked people "didn't you feel like wheeling a 15-card pack in 4 people was too much?" I heard "No, I like it because I feel like I have more control and more insight over what's happening.

And when I drafted in 10-12, it felt bad to have a single pick whenever there were two cards the person wanted. "And these packs aren't ever coming back, right? Damn."

I think this is all to say that I haven't been a big fan of changing pack sizes for the last 10 years or so :D BUT! One thing that I'm completely baffled that is not discussed more openly (and relates to lots of problems and solutions that pack sizes deal with) is SEEDING PACKS. I feel like if you are not seeding boosters, preparing them to have at least a card of each color, a colorless, a multicolored land, and a multicolored nonland, then you are not maximizing the draft experience for your players. I think seeding booster packs has been the most important design change I've ever made throughout all the time I've been cubing, and the best part is that it is completely invisible to the players! No added layers of complexity for new players!

Wait, I have a lot of opinions about that too!

I currently seed packs with WUBGRMAL + 7 randoms. I like the simple rules of at least one card per color per pack since it makes it easy to read signals, and shifts the feeling of "that's an unlucky pack for me" to "I should perhaps move colors".

I used to build my boosters by shuffling 6 cards of each section of WUBRGMAL for a total of 48 and splitting them into 3 packs of 16, then passing packs around so that you couldn't count cards and know what colors you'll open in pack 3. That worked fine too, but I prefer the newer method.

None of those methods take meaningfully more time than any other I'd use since I keep my sections separated anyway for easy access and for sanity in (not) shuffling large piles.

Some things that I want to try out with seeding boosters, but haven't yet:
• Frontload strong archetype anchors to the first booster (especially the ones that you REALLY need to build the deck around)
• Have a slot in each booster (so about 24 cards in a regular draft) dedicated to one or two parasitic archetypes and see if it flies (something like poison, affinity, cycling-matters).

I'm doing the occasionals slots, and more and more I'm thinking of moving these slots to be 2 in Pack 1, 1 in Pack 2, and 0 in Pack 3 for this exact reason.

I've considered having a "testing" slot too for new cards, but I test such varied number of cards depending on the latest releases that it didn't feel right to me particular case. How does it work in practice for you?
 
Hi everyone! Right now I have a 360 cube that I draft with 3 boosters of 15, but I’m thinking about upping the count to 384 and doing 4 boosters of 12. Do you think one of those has more pros/cons than the other? Or do you think the small size change of both the cube and the pool doesn’t matter that much?
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Hi everyone! Right now I have a 360 cube that I draft with 3 boosters of 15, but I’m thinking about upping the count to 384 and doing 4 boosters of 12. Do you think one of those has more pros/cons than the other? Or do you think the small size change of both the cube and the pool doesn’t matter that much?
I mean, boosters used to come with a basic land and then cubers just ran 15 actual cards instead. Going from 45 to 48 is more or less the same change. (You can also do 3 x 16 for the same number of cards)
 
I'd recommend the 3x16 too. Keeps the draft basically "normal" from the drafters perspective except the packs are a bit bigger now.

I think that 24 extra slots in the cube could be used for some pretty neat stuff you dont have room for atm with 360!
 
Hi everyone! Right now I have a 360 cube that I draft with 3 boosters of 15, but I’m thinking about upping the count to 384 and doing 4 boosters of 12. Do you think one of those has more pros/cons than the other? Or do you think the small size change of both the cube and the pool doesn’t matter that much?

I like 384 3x16 a lot for 8 player pods, my cube was that size for basically all of 2020, only recently did I beef up to 512 and add a 4th pack.
 

landofMordor

Administrator
I've had a similar experience on the 3x16 being a good size for 8 players.

I'm not going to beef up to 512, but I might try 4x13 or 4x14 so that I am not as squeezed for slots when updating the list!
 
Wait, I have a lot of opinions about that too!

I currently seed packs with WUBGRMAL + 7 randoms. I like the simple rules of at least one card per color per pack since it makes it easy to read signals, and shifts the feeling of "that's an unlucky pack for me" to "I should perhaps move colors".

I used to build my boosters by shuffling 6 cards of each section of WUBRGMAL for a total of 48 and splitting them into 3 packs of 16, then passing packs around so that you couldn't count cards and know what colors you'll open in pack 3. That worked fine too, but I prefer the newer method.

None of those methods take meaningfully more time than any other I'd use since I keep my sections separated anyway for easy access and for sanity in (not) shuffling large piles.
Yeah, it's been my method as well. I prepare a ton of WUBRGMAL packs, then I've been either shuffling the rest and filling the rest of the packs with random cards, or I first would just make stack all of the pre-boosters in one pile and take 15 of each, which guarantees 2 WUBRGMAL plus another random card. I think its even easier to make boosters this way than depending on shuffling the whole cube into one pile.

I also use cubamajigs with different arts to separate which boosters have the test cards, and what boosters have slots for the test cards if we get to the second draft in a day, so I just need to shuffle the test cards and insert in those boosters.
I'm doing the occasionals slots, and more and more I'm thinking of moving these slots to be 2 in Pack 1, 1 in Pack 2, and 0 in Pack 3 for this exact reason.

I've considered having a "testing" slot too for new cards, but I test such varied number of cards depending on the latest releases that it didn't feel right to me particular case. How does it work in practice for you?
When I'm testing more cards that I have test slots for, the difference tends to be how much feedback I want to get on a card. My test cards all have markings on the sleeves showing that they are test cards, so it's easy for me to communicate to players that I have a particular interest in hearing about their experience with these cards throughout the draft. If I was testing more cards than I had slot for, I'd include them in my list, seed them in boosters, but not have them in the special sleeves.

For when War of the Spark came out, for example, there were some cards that I was almost sure they would stay in the list (so cards like like Finale of Promisse, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, or Lazotep Reaver that already played on themes I was trying to push). These I would include in the list and seed them in the draft without putting them in the test pool sleeves. Then I'd put the cards I wasn't sure about into the test pool sleeves (in this case, cards like Command the Dreadhorde, Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God, and Teferi, Time Raveler).
By the end of the draft, I could check if the new cards were included in the decklists, ask the players how the cards in the new set, ask about the cards in the test pool sleeve that they didn't play, etc.
 
Thank you all! I didn't think about 3x16 but that's surely a consideration! I'll give a try to both 3x16 and 4x12 and see what happens. I'm really happy for the +24 cards in my cube, I had a lot of interesting cards that I had to cut and I love to put back in!
 
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