i’m gonna make my first proposal: Sarulf’s Packmate in, Strength of the Pack out
Ravnic's Arena Cube - I wanna play with you
- Thread starter ravnic
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I like it. Strength of the Pack is a pretty easy cut, it's very situational and doesn't really help the counters deck much.
Packmate was a very strong common in Kaldheim, and has a bit of interesting decision making with the Foretell to play on T3 vs T2 play. I have no concerns with the power level, though it doesn't help any archetypes in special. It adds little board complexity and since we already have some foretell, it's not a new mechanic or feels out of place. I'm ok with the include (especially since almost anything is an upgrade over Strength of the Pack).
yeah, i just think it’s a great glue card at the right power level - mana smoother, cantrip, and decent body all in one. i don’t think it’s the insta first pick it was in KHM here, but any green deck will be happy to pick it up and it will give them better games.
Proposal
Out:
In:
There is a single defender in the cube (the token from The Birth of Meletis) and there aren't a lot of high toughness creatures, which makes High Alert a bit of a trap, and an easy cut. Staggering Insight is a card that's much more playable, and fuels aggro-control strategies, along with Curious Obsession, helping a fliers deck too. It is, however, a bit polarizing as it often makes the game about it. Since the removal is decent, and there's no permanent Hexproof other than Gleaming Overseer, I don't think the card will be busted. It introduces a high risk and high reward play and a good reason to play Gods Willing and Feat of Resistance.
Out:
In:
There is a single defender in the cube (the token from The Birth of Meletis) and there aren't a lot of high toughness creatures, which makes High Alert a bit of a trap, and an easy cut. Staggering Insight is a card that's much more playable, and fuels aggro-control strategies, along with Curious Obsession, helping a fliers deck too. It is, however, a bit polarizing as it often makes the game about it. Since the removal is decent, and there's no permanent Hexproof other than Gleaming Overseer, I don't think the card will be busted. It introduces a high risk and high reward play and a good reason to play Gods Willing and Feat of Resistance.
Proposal
Out:
In:
In the average deck, Huatli's effect is about neutral in both white and green. It only really helps blue, but still - there aren't a lot of high toughness creatures and I don't think there should be a lot to accommodate it or aggro matchups may get too polarized. Adding walls to make High Alert useful doesn't even help Huatli that much, since she doesn't allow walls to attack. She's bad without creatures and doesn't help when on the offense.
Since this is the Selesnya hybrid slot, there aren't a lot of options:
Out of these, Heedbonder seems to me like the best fit for the cube. It helps curb aggro, contributes to the WBG lifegain deck, and the vigilance synergy is gravy, but with 7 other vigilance creatures in the cube (show below) it's doable to draft a little bit around it. Mostly, its role is to enable payoffs like Attended Healer while being perfectly fine in other decks.
Out:
In:
In the average deck, Huatli's effect is about neutral in both white and green. It only really helps blue, but still - there aren't a lot of high toughness creatures and I don't think there should be a lot to accommodate it or aggro matchups may get too polarized. Adding walls to make High Alert useful doesn't even help Huatli that much, since she doesn't allow walls to attack. She's bad without creatures and doesn't help when on the offense.
Since this is the Selesnya hybrid slot, there aren't a lot of options:
Out of these, Heedbonder seems to me like the best fit for the cube. It helps curb aggro, contributes to the WBG lifegain deck, and the vigilance synergy is gravy, but with 7 other vigilance creatures in the cube (show below) it's doable to draft a little bit around it. Mostly, its role is to enable payoffs like Attended Healer while being perfectly fine in other decks.
I agree that Huatli should go. I am not sure that you have to replace her with another selesnya hybrid for symmetry's sake.Proposal
Out:
In:
Since this is the Selesnya hybrid slot, there aren't a lot of options [...].
HA5 introduces into the north for the snow archetype. Other than that HA5 gives support for artifacts court homunculus, whirler rogue, vault skirge.
Proposal
Out:
In:
Rambunctious Mutt and Forsake the Wordly are the dedicated white artifact/enchantment removal spells. Besides them, white has 2.5 generic permanent removal cards:
I don't think Mutt is very maindeckable since the fail case is quite awful. It's a card that neither slow nor fast decks want to run, and won't likely see much play.
Divine Gambit is the only option that's both artifact and enchantment removal and not a blank without targets. It was a fine card in Kaldheim and good in Strixhaven, and I like the fact that it's removal that is risky to use early, but gets way better as the game goes on. Using Divine Gambit right is about recognizing when it is good to pull the trigger.
Out:
In:
Rambunctious Mutt and Forsake the Wordly are the dedicated white artifact/enchantment removal spells. Besides them, white has 2.5 generic permanent removal cards:
I don't think Mutt is very maindeckable since the fail case is quite awful. It's a card that neither slow nor fast decks want to run, and won't likely see much play.
Divine Gambit is the only option that's both artifact and enchantment removal and not a blank without targets. It was a fine card in Kaldheim and good in Strixhaven, and I like the fact that it's removal that is risky to use early, but gets way better as the game goes on. Using Divine Gambit right is about recognizing when it is good to pull the trigger.
Proposal
Out:
In:
Leonin Vanguard is a terrible blocker and quite bad when behind. Cards like reward white for being always on the offense, and the other three 2/1s for 1 perform that role better.
Splendor Mare is just an option which is playable in any deck and has high potential for interesting plays, like putting a lifelink counter as a trick, triggers the lifeline payoffs, and whether to cycle it or cast it is an interesting decision in most games. It also is as good in offense as in defense, so it balances white.
Out:
In:
Leonin Vanguard is a terrible blocker and quite bad when behind. Cards like reward white for being always on the offense, and the other three 2/1s for 1 perform that role better.
Splendor Mare is just an option which is playable in any deck and has high potential for interesting plays, like putting a lifelink counter as a trick, triggers the lifeline payoffs, and whether to cycle it or cast it is an interesting decision in most games. It also is as good in offense as in defense, so it balances white.
Proposal
Out:
In:
Raise the Alarm is more appropriate for cubes with a tokens theme. Here it only works well with a few cards, like Fortify, Kabira Takedown, Basri's Solidarity and Basri's Acolyte, and some gold cards (Pledge of Unity, Maja, Bretagard Protector, Heroic Reinforcements) but because the floor is low and there aren't a lot of tokens otherwise, a tokens deck is just of a trap and it's frequently just two blockers.
Ancestral Blade can be shifted into attackers and blockers, and deciding what to equip is often an interesting combat decision. It provides a bit of staying power to aggro while being playable in slower decks that need to survive an early onslaught and get something in return. It is also an incidental artifact to trigger Stone Haven Pilgrim, be shaped by Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, returned by Shepherd of the Flock and grow an incidental artifacts theme. It's a soft payoff for fliers and tokens, and synergizes somewhat with Danitha Capashen, Paragon.
Out:
In:
Raise the Alarm is more appropriate for cubes with a tokens theme. Here it only works well with a few cards, like Fortify, Kabira Takedown, Basri's Solidarity and Basri's Acolyte, and some gold cards (Pledge of Unity, Maja, Bretagard Protector, Heroic Reinforcements) but because the floor is low and there aren't a lot of tokens otherwise, a tokens deck is just of a trap and it's frequently just two blockers.
Ancestral Blade can be shifted into attackers and blockers, and deciding what to equip is often an interesting combat decision. It provides a bit of staying power to aggro while being playable in slower decks that need to survive an early onslaught and get something in return. It is also an incidental artifact to trigger Stone Haven Pilgrim, be shaped by Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, returned by Shepherd of the Flock and grow an incidental artifacts theme. It's a soft payoff for fliers and tokens, and synergizes somewhat with Danitha Capashen, Paragon.
Proposal
Out:
In:
The Wanderer is a do-nothing against aggro and randomly hoses red (though it is cute with Crush the Weak). There is already plenty of removal in white and looking at the least desirable ones (for being too bad, good or uninteresting) this stands out.
Glass Casket is strong removal that can be interacted with and is flavorful. It lays another stone in the foundation for a white artifact archetype with Thraben Inspector and The Birth of Meletis.
Out:
In:
The Wanderer is a do-nothing against aggro and randomly hoses red (though it is cute with Crush the Weak). There is already plenty of removal in white and looking at the least desirable ones (for being too bad, good or uninteresting) this stands out.
Glass Casket is strong removal that can be interacted with and is flavorful. It lays another stone in the foundation for a white artifact archetype with Thraben Inspector and The Birth of Meletis.
Discussion
I think black would benefit from not being in Energy. The only three black cards that care about energy (and in fact are all black cards eligible for the cube that do) are:
Live Fast is bad against aggro, and the {E}{E} don't seem like good compensation for the two life. It's a lot weaker than Read the Bones, and accentuates its problems. Foreboding Fruit is similar, and while I think it's marginal, it's also better in general.
Die Young by itself is very underwhelming. The sorcery speed makes it so, so much worse than Disfigure and Harnessed Lightning. I played it in a control deck where it should have been good and it felt like the worst card in the deck.
Aether Poisoner I quite like, but there is already quite a bit of deathtouch in the cube and I don't think it'll be missed too much.
For replacements, the natural flow would be to replace with a blocker, a removal spell, and a draw spell. I don't think black needs much value though - it's already chock full of it, between draw and Raise Deads. It does not have very much removal and 22/47 is already quite low a creature count, so I'd go with removal spells + creature + another of either.
Sacrifice Option
Removing energy doesn't help a problem with black, which is that the only archetypes in it are lifegain (which is well supported) and snow (which is a small archetype). I feel like it's missing an archetype, and particularly something with red. They have in common some amass, some spectacle, and a love for creatures dying, so I suppose sacrifice is a reasonable option. This is what's already in the cube: https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/ravnic-arena?f=tag:sacrifice
The archetype could be created with a couple of swaps:
In:
Out:
Probably need another 2 or so slots in red and 2 in black to solidify the archetype, but it's not far.
Good Stuff Option
Alternatively, the black slots can be used to increase the density of removal. There are tons of options to choose from, and preferably one would be a creature for critcal mass reasons:
High power:
Mid power:
Low power:
Lifegain:
Creatures:
I would not use high power removal because it pressure the quality of threats too much. I think the best ones in terms of agency are Price of Fame, Vicious Offering and Fatal Push. Priest of the Haunted Edge is IMO the best creature option, a good blocker that doesn't completely hose aggro like 1/3s do, helps snow, which is not well rooted in black, and shifts the pick order of snow lands.
I think black would benefit from not being in Energy. The only three black cards that care about energy (and in fact are all black cards eligible for the cube that do) are:
Live Fast is bad against aggro, and the {E}{E} don't seem like good compensation for the two life. It's a lot weaker than Read the Bones, and accentuates its problems. Foreboding Fruit is similar, and while I think it's marginal, it's also better in general.
Die Young by itself is very underwhelming. The sorcery speed makes it so, so much worse than Disfigure and Harnessed Lightning. I played it in a control deck where it should have been good and it felt like the worst card in the deck.
Aether Poisoner I quite like, but there is already quite a bit of deathtouch in the cube and I don't think it'll be missed too much.
For replacements, the natural flow would be to replace with a blocker, a removal spell, and a draw spell. I don't think black needs much value though - it's already chock full of it, between draw and Raise Deads. It does not have very much removal and 22/47 is already quite low a creature count, so I'd go with removal spells + creature + another of either.
Sacrifice Option
Removing energy doesn't help a problem with black, which is that the only archetypes in it are lifegain (which is well supported) and snow (which is a small archetype). I feel like it's missing an archetype, and particularly something with red. They have in common some amass, some spectacle, and a love for creatures dying, so I suppose sacrifice is a reasonable option. This is what's already in the cube: https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/ravnic-arena?f=tag:sacrifice
The archetype could be created with a couple of swaps:
In:
Out:
Probably need another 2 or so slots in red and 2 in black to solidify the archetype, but it's not far.
Good Stuff Option
Alternatively, the black slots can be used to increase the density of removal. There are tons of options to choose from, and preferably one would be a creature for critcal mass reasons:
High power:
Mid power:
Low power:
Lifegain:
Creatures:
I would not use high power removal because it pressure the quality of threats too much. I think the best ones in terms of agency are Price of Fame, Vicious Offering and Fatal Push. Priest of the Haunted Edge is IMO the best creature option, a good blocker that doesn't completely hose aggro like 1/3s do, helps snow, which is not well rooted in black, and shifts the pick order of snow lands.
Proposal
Out:
In:
Peema Outrider
Well, this is the cube for Fynn. The deathtouch deck is super nice here, because green offers the fight and bite effects:
And black brings in the deathtouchers:
Green is missing two-drops, too, so it fits like a glove.
Peema Outrider seems to point to a tokens or artifacts direction, and though it helps counters, green already has a lot of counters cards. It's really similar to Fierce Witchstalker, and I think lifegain in green needs the slot more.
Out:
In:
Peema Outrider
Well, this is the cube for Fynn. The deathtouch deck is super nice here, because green offers the fight and bite effects:
And black brings in the deathtouchers:
Green is missing two-drops, too, so it fits like a glove.
Peema Outrider seems to point to a tokens or artifacts direction, and though it helps counters, green already has a lot of counters cards. It's really similar to Fierce Witchstalker, and I think lifegain in green needs the slot more.
Proposal
Out:
In:
Mage Duel is a bit weird in green, since it's not actually worth running a spellslinger green deck since no other cards card about it. It's splashable, but compared to the red burn, it's too risky, and would not realistically be splashed.
Struggle for Skemfar fits the +1/+1 theme, has some interesting sequencing decisions with the foretell (it's one of the few cards that actually gets discounted with foretell), further muddles the foretell pool. The fact the counter is permanent makes the decision of what to fight with more nuanced.
Out:
In:
Mage Duel is a bit weird in green, since it's not actually worth running a spellslinger green deck since no other cards card about it. It's splashable, but compared to the red burn, it's too risky, and would not realistically be splashed.
Struggle for Skemfar fits the +1/+1 theme, has some interesting sequencing decisions with the foretell (it's one of the few cards that actually gets discounted with foretell), further muddles the foretell pool. The fact the counter is permanent makes the decision of what to fight with more nuanced.
Maybe everybody is too friendly to naye.Okay, to start things of before the 1st of june, I will make the first update on friday, the 21st, since we just missed the 15th.
Also, didn't we settle on the heart and theas aye and naye? Since I see so many like on this page
I'm totally for doing this sacrifice deck in black, probably mardu, and I'd vastly prefer it over the "just add good stuff and removal" version. Make a proposal!
Proposal
Out:
In:
Leonin Vanguard is a terrible blocker and quite bad when behind. Cards like reward white for being always on the offense, and the other three 2/1s for 1 perform that role better.
Splendor Mare is just an option which is playable in any deck and has high potential for interesting plays, like putting a lifelink counter as a trick, triggers the lifeline payoffs, and whether to cycle it or cast it is an interesting decision in most games. It also is as good in offense as in defense, so it balances white.
I'd be down for giving the Mare a shot, although I feel like it really hoses aggro.
However, I think the Vanguard is a highly synergistic 2-power 1-drop, and thus should not be cut.
i like taking energy out of black, but that red cantrip is really nice and should probably stay in
What would come out for it? Witherbloom Pledgemage?
?
Cut Pursue Glory maybe?
yeah that’s a decent cut, i’m not maindecking it just for the 2 cycling