General Rebooting my cube, graveyard stuff!

[Aoret]

Hey all, looking for some cool ideas from you guys for a cube reboot I'm about to do. I've been through lots of phases with it since my original 360, and it has become a confused jumble. So I'm laying out a handful of principles for myself and starting over!

What I'm trying to achieve:

• Fairly low power level (to explore the design space, and because I already have a powered 360 cube)
• Overlap mechanics/colors/archetypes as much as possible
• Create a "graveyard matters" environment
• Stress the particular effects that removal and counterspells have. I want players thinking about whether they'd rather have a Journey to Nowhere or a Doom Blade, a Counterspell or a Dissipate
• It has to be fun to play! (Interesting decisions, etc)
• I have no problem at all with breaking singleton

Some themes and keywords I'd like to include:

• Powerful mill effects (thinking along the lines of Glimpse the Unthinkable)
• Self-mill effects which are self-synergizing (like Splinterfright)
• Flashback
• Unearth
• Bloodghast-style effects
• Scavenge
• Retrace
• Loot effects (particularly some of the traditionally "bad" or combo-only red ones)
• Madness (possibly, to go with the above)
• Gravedigger/Izzet Chronarch type effects
• Runechanter's pike type stuff
• Considering effects like harvest pyre, but I'm not sure that it is an interesting decision point or just a hard anti-synergy

A lot of that sits me pretty heavily into the Grixis colors. I'm trying to brainstorm some interesting things to do with GW as well. Maybe a tokens archetype with Cenn's Enlistment? I was also thinking about sprinkling in lots of ETB abilities across all of the colors, and supporting a Bant-ish blink archetype.
Any cool card suggestions or ideas folks have are very welcome thanks guys!

 

[Jason Waddell]

Interesting topic! I've been thinking for a while about doing a Graveyard-centered reboot, but am too busy with other projects at the moment.

It sounds like you have some great ideas there. It may sound weird, but I was tinkering with a budget cube that had lots of retrace / flashback, and thus also really liked Extort, and then these cards:


The last one is less "budget".

Tie it to more graveyard with:


Tortured existence is also great with your Madness and Gravescrabbler cards.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Maindeckable Graveyard hate:

 

[CML]

The thread on Graveyard hate is pretty good, basically right now I'm running 2x Deathrite 2x Ooze 2x Relic and a few others because I humbly disagree on the maindeckability of Grunt and Shaman. Seemed like a good spot to break singleton!

quick brainstorm --

Lifegain: Jason: Firemane Angel?
Bloodghast effects: Nether Shadow, Nether Traitor, Nether Spirit, Ichorid
Graveyard effects: Narcomoeba, Dread Return, Cephalid Coliseum
Powerful mill-you effects: I'd say "don't" based on my own experience with it (there's a thread called "mill you") but if you wanna try then there are some ideas in there. Drownyard is a sweet card though
Scavenge: Dreg Mangler
Flashback: Lingering Souls and Firebolt
Unearth: Corpse Connoisseur and Kederekt Leviathan (also Viscera Dragger and Dregscape Zombie?)
Pyre: Tombstalker
Pike stuff: Bonehoard

G/W: Green has plenty of graveyardish effects (Genesis) and White kind of does too. Has anyone tried Glory?

 

[Aoret]

Thanks so much for the input guys! Awesome stuff! I've been researching a bunch of stuff myself, and I'm starting to get the feeling that there will be more ideas and archetypes that I want to include than I actually have room to support! But I guess that is the challenge in design right?

Jason, I actually have some extort cards in my current, jumbled version of the cube. I love they way they've been playing for me. I totally would have missed the synergy opportunity with those mechanics if you hadn't pointed it out! I may pursue the lifegain triggers too, possibly in lieu of the blink&bounce I was planning on doing for UW. I'm not sure there is enough room in the cube to add that archetype since the more important mechanics don't really layer with it... (flashback, unearth, bloodghast type stuff often doesn't come with an ETB ability).

CML, awesome brainstorm list, thank you! I found Corpse Connoisseur myself this afternoon and LOVE the way it layers the strategies. Thank you for the warning on the mill. Do you think it is include-able at all? Maybe a Thought Scour or two? I was thinking about adding Nivix Cyclops and company as my Izzet cards to create a "spells matter" section for UR. I could see a cantripping blue spell being useful in that archetype, and it layers really well with other stuff too. (I like that more than one archetype would want the card)

Both of you guys brought up graveyard hate. Do you think this is necessary to keep the format in check? Do you just feel it adds any layer of depth? I had considered it, but wasn't planning on including a lot because I wanted the synergies to "just work". Are y'all kinda speaking from experience on what will happen if I don't include some hate? lol

When I get a rough draft of this cube done (probably in a few weeks at the pace I'm going...) I'll be sure to throw it on CubeTutor and get some feedback. Thanks again so much for the input!

 

[Lucre]

I always take notice when cremate is in a format. It's a cheap trick and graveyards are often relevant in formats.
I MD'd shred memory in some stupid deck I made. I think I was just in love with transmute. It's probably not worth it.
I think there were a couple imprint cards that could be useful in this sort of bind but I can't think of any right now.

I used to really love grizzly fate.
Deathspark is a card that doesnt make many cubes.
Spinning darkness helps use that resource.
Disturbed burial isnt bad for recursion.
Too dumb to think of more now.

 

[CML]

real quick:

mill -- just throw a drownyard in your utility land draft. there are a handful of cards that mill in addition to doing other stuff (geth, oona, 5cmc jace, nemesis of reason all come to mind) but i don't like em. 5cmc jace in particular is kinda unbeatable. i like thought scour but you gotta realize that it's not gonna kill anyone and then justify running it over 1st and 2nd copies of brainstorm / ponder / preordain / even portent and gitaxian probe

izzet -- this is an annoying color pair to support (or so i find) and i like the spells matter theme but i think you'll have to break singleton. Ral Zarek in particular is sweet in Cube and it makes me think he'll be played in STD upon rotation. check this out though

gy hate -- yeah it's kinda dumb if a reanimator deck is 'goldfishing.' make the strategy strong, but give the other strategies a way to interact. 'dynamic equilibrium' is a big idea for me in mtg -- that's how magic's balance approximates sentience closely enough to actually work.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I don't know if it's what you're looking for, but Legacy has an extremely interactive graveyard:


I think it's the best implementation of graveyard interaction of any format.

 

[Aoret]

Lucre, I love the idea of Grizzly Fate, that one is going in for sure! Disturbed Burial is a possibility. I like Spinning darkness but I'd rather not deal with the finicky "graveyard order matters" thing. I guess maybe I could print an HQCG proxy with errata'd text?

CML, I'm totally fine with breaking singleton. That izzet section is one of the few I've finalized and, in theory, I really love it. We'll see if it plays out as too powerful and whether or not I can balance it. (I suspect I made it too good, but I'd rather dial it down than have it not work). Re: graveyard hate, I'll include some. I'm not really looking to set up traditional "reanimator" style decks as such, because they bore the piss out of me now that I've done it a few times. Just the same, I think you're right that you can't just let somebody goldfish a huge pile of value out of their yard.

Jason, those are all sweet cards, but I'm already playing all but one of them in my more traditional, higher powered cube (full of sweet foil proxies!). I'm really looking to move away from the more power maxed side of things. Not opposed to the idea of running some of the same cards in both cubes if it makes sense, but I think adding some of these might be over the top for the environment I'm trying to create. Lavamancer might be okay, I think Ooze is way, way too much (which sucks because it would serve the purpose of graveyard hate discussed above)

Thanks again dudes. You're keeping me fueled with good ideas and enthusiasm for this project

 

[CML]

You're gonna have to deal with graveyard order, because not running Corpse Dance is not something I'd consider

Spinning Darkness is kinda bad, just play Tombstalker and maybe some other card like it

Goose sadly is not long for the Legacy format

 

[Chris Taylor]

Try some of the cards from coldsnap with recover: Grim Harvest

 

[Aoret]

Thanks Chris. So far I'm loving Grim Harvest

For those interested in this, I've created a thread for my cube and finally went public with the list! Thanks again for your help in getting me this far