General Rethinking our Guild %?

I was a player and cube noob who back in the day my first cube created was HEAVY on multi-color cards for a few reasons. But generally, they were just cooler, in that the effects of spells were stronger or allowed more options on them etc... My initial cube was much slower in color combination (5 color control was totally a thing) but just converted mana cost was higher overall due to included so many 2 and 3+ color cards.

Over time I gave in and revamped my cubes with better understanding but still never got my MULTI section as low as many of the typical cubes tend to have. There is still a part of me that doesn't want to let go.

But putting aside my own bias, I am trying to think objectively here for a moment and get a feel for if I'm just crazy or if my hypothesis and rationale make any sense at all.

I am wondering if it wouldn't be "better" (this is subjective and I dont' think i have a way to quantitatively support this), to have a LARGER guild section than what is currently constituted by many cubers.

My thinking on this matter came up in that newer sets are incorporating more ARTIFACTS and so there must be more ways to deal with them, right? that is only a natural conclusion. I was in a multiplayer game this past Monday and a 4 player game had almost 10 artifacts out on the board at a particular time... I had 1 or 2 ways in my deck to deal and another person had 1 or 2 ways to deal, other than that the rest could go "unchecked".

Now I must confess to a couple proviso's in that I play a lower power style of cube, not wanting to a) spend lots of money on cards (budget-y) and b)like the feel of peasant's more limited construct but had enough of wanting more archetype enabling/support type cards that could break out of the ever narrowing cube updating prison that is "peasant". and C) I don't like cards that completely spike the power level to an unhealthy or un-fun (my and playgroups subjectivity) state. Secondly my cube has been geared more to multiplayer, as we find it more inclusive and fun so there are cards I have that aren't normally considered in regular cubes that play strictly 1v1.

Getting back on track, artfiacts - Yes! the decks did not have enough to handle the number of artifacts on the board (some were creatures so kill spells do handle them for the most part) but generally the amount of removal vs cards on board was severely lacking. Now I don't want to have a cube that overcompensates and bum rushes cards in for the sake of 1 anecdotal experience.

But I did go through the gatherer recently to see if there are any cards that I could possibly acquire that would be good to help combat the recent additions of artifacts into the cube. I quickly found a few cards that are awesome, and work in multiplayer but after listing them below do you notice a theme?



Artifact Mutation
Destructive Revelry
Hull Breach
Decimate



These 4 are all very cool, pretty powerful cards that would work in my cube and having in a deck would not make me sad. I am looking for cards that are not "overcosted" as then it is even less appealing to have narrow cards in a cube let alone picked for a deck. I am looking for cards that might have multiple uses or "bonuses" to the card. getting additional 1/1 tokens or gaining life, or killing an artifact and/or enchantment are all acceptable to me (so long as the price of the card does not become prohibitive)

So what is the problem? They are all in the Red/Green guild............................... To most that is a death sentence as Guild slots are typically seen as "sacred" and with the notion that there are so few of them available to the cube creator that they would NEVER ever waste a spot with putting 1 or (gasp!) 2+ of these cards into the cube. And in Red/Green, an aggro color...... the mere thought is sacrosanct and borderline criminal!!!


NOOOOWWW, I'm coming back full circle to my original hypothesis, in that "What is the issue, if we/i/community" look at increasing the number of cards in a guild section? Not in the manner of 7 here and 4 there, obviously keeping everything even for color balance sake and like that, but if the % of multi-color cards was allowed to creep up to allow for room of these additions and not feel like you have to play inferior versions in the individual color sections.... Obviously I have the Disenchantand Naturalize, but aside from those what cards in the single color sections can do as good a job or better than them? what cards in the single colors are better than the 4 red/green cards listed above? If the answer is NONE, because they are the best then you have to look at if it is worth putting a WORSE card in the single color section to save a slot for your MULTI section. But all I am proposing and really wondering out loud is being able to add more MULTI cards which allow us to possibly fill the extra slots with once niche cards for sets of cards that are becoming bigger needs to have answers for what is the problem to adding additional guild slots?

the additional guild slots don't HAVE to be for "niche" cards or anything, but saying they CAN be used that way, as if you had more R/G aggro guys than GG or something like that for 2 reasons.... 1) they would be easier to cast in a R/G deck and 2)Multi-color cards are typically "stronger"

[Edit]
This is another reason why i continually keep giving Putrefyand Mortify a look and say, how are these not in my cube. A) I don't want too much point and click kill spells, they are linear and boring and B) The Guild slots maaaannnnn!!!!
[Edit]

Anyway, sorry for the long drawn out post to get to the seemingly anti-climactic question/conclusion/proposal, but would love to hear any responses on the matter and thoughts as to whether something like that is viable and/or if it is confirmed I am just a multi-color loving lunatic.......
 
I'm not an expert in heavy multicolored cubes, but I can say that my preferred artifact/enchantment destruction usually have some sort of wider-applicable, alternate 'mode' or use.

Have you considered using K-command, or Qasali Pridemage?

I do like multicolored cubes a lot, though! There are some really great ones around here.
 
I tend to steer away from "utility" cards such as artifact removal in the guild sections because I don't want to limit the colours that have answers to particular permanents in my cube. If you expand the guild section for Gruul and include all the anti-artifact cards you listed, but then don't also include mono-colour artifact removal cards, you limit the decks that are going to have access to these cards in any particular draft. I therefore specifically include mono-colour cards that can interact with problematic permanents so that more decks can cast them, and there are several you can use: Reclamation Sage, Torch Fiend, Wickerbough Elder, Manic Vandal. If you have 2 red and 2 green cards, rather than 4 red/green cards, the number of players who can utilise them increases by a large amount.

I'm generally against increasing the multicolour sections for this reason, in that mulitcolour cards (distinct from hybrid) are inherently less flexible and so will end up being taken later or being left in sideboards more often. I would say this is especially an issue with utility cards as assuming the overall density in the whole cube stays the same, using multicolour slots for these means that in practice there's going to be fewer of them actually being played in decks.

I think the best way to seed more answers to otherwise difficult to deal with permanents is to include more maindeckable answers to them. All of the cards I listed above, as well as being able to destroy artifacts, are just average on-curve creatures. I wouldn't be too unhappy to include a Reclamation Sage in my green decks even if it only kills an artifact or enchantment in 25% of games. Compare that to Destructive Revelry, which without a target does literally nothing, and can only be included in decks playing both red and green to boot.

This does change somewhat in cubes with especially high artifact counts - cf many pros highlighting Ancient Grudge as an underrated card in Vintage Cube because so many decks play power, or the fact that Shatter was a high pick in (Scars of) Mirrodin draft because every player had artifacts in their deck. However for a more traditional cube, I think the answer is to run artifact removal that's incidental rather than overload guild slots with artifact removal.
 
The original context seems to be based more around a multiplayer feel. Multiplayer is often looking for the correct/powerful effects over getting one set-in-stone plan (so midrangier?). It's also usually a little more color forgiving, because it's also more time-forgiving, and can be lower pressure. With that in mind it's probably perfectly fine to throw a few more slots to the guild sections for these powerful/usefull "effect" cards, which may or may not be "utility". The card I'd be most attracted to in a multiplayer context is

This card is a real beating in multiplayer, and generally will be able to find all four of it's targets, unlike 1v1. It is also useful to tack incidental effects onto this sort of card, so there's "more upside" or what will you. The first card that comes to my mind is

The double hybrid means it can work in mono {G} or {W}, but is probably a little better suited to a guild slot. Pairs nicely with advent of the wurm.

As usual, this sort of discussion is format specific. "Are there problems in [Environment J], and it looks like more guild cards can handily solve those problems?" Is my fixing ready for a potentially increased need? On the flip side, some formats might end up with "are there too many guild cards for my fixing capacity in [Environment R], so important effects are being sub-optimally utilized?"

Another thing I want to bring up in this thread is that I wouldn't put as much personal weight on balancing the number of guild cards across the guilds. I card-balance the mono color sections, if only to reduce analysis paralysis, but the guild sections are more forgiving because it's a much smaller section to work with. We aren't balancing colors here, necessarily, we are balancing formats. Maybe [Environment D]'s {G}{R} section really could use a hull breach to help deal with the blue-based artifact decks and white-based enchantment decks in that format??? That doesn't mean one needs to suddenly find 9 more cards to fill in the "unbalance". This was a hole in Gruul's format space, all the other guilds could be fine as is. What I'm getting at is that I think guild sections are good for solving these more specific holes in powerful effects that certain decks might need, but we shouldn't worry so much about "color balancing" them.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
The cube multi-player games we play usually end up trending towards battlecruiser magic, and the higher the power level the more so that is true. Its mostly about bombs and answers until a bomb goes unanswered and someone dies.

In my experience, everything Aston said about multi-color utility cards applies to multi-player as well, as you still have that base density issue; and adding hard to answer bombs that require drawing from a smallish pool of narrow, specialized, answers, ends up being an un-fun experience. Decimate, for example, has never been playable for us.

One other annoying thing about using utility slots to try to up the density of artifact/enchantment removal, is that WOTC did a horrible job of dispersing those effects amongst the guilds. The lions share of those effects are in RG (artifact destruction only) or GW (artifact and enchantment), so over-reliance results in a new form of in-balance.
 
Again, this is where format specificity always has to stay a part of the discussion. If I only played multiplayer/2HG in my cube, Decimate would always be playable, because I have more of a focus on Artifacts and Enchantments, including some artifact/enchantment creatures (which can be two of the targets if needed). And it's a great, swingy effect for multiplayer.

Also, multiplayer, in my experience, does lend itself to slightly narrower answers. Again my explanation of multiplayer looking for effects, over having the 100% tight deck plan. EDH is the trademark battlecruiser format, and I see an abundance of Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation, Naturalize, hell even Erase and Shatter. Different formats, different needs, but it's still something to keep in mind. When there are powerful things happening that need answers, the powerful effect is needed more than the incidental 2/1 or whatever. This is where the 2-for-1 power of hull breach is sweet, or the double cast of ancient grudge.

If there are powerful solutions to looming problems in a format, and they are in guild cards, why try to pigeonhole ourselves away from those solutions because of some notions about how we all think formats "need" to work? Like, if every game ends up with someone dominating the field with unanswered artifacts/enchantments, the "narrow" answer probably isn't that narrow, it's needed.

Another guild that has a powerful effect that can help this out:


And another effect that can fill this role in a more general (and powerful) way:
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think I like this best (in cube) where there is sort of a layering of significant, but non-game ending artifacts. Like a row or two of signets that you can anticipate will end up in most decks, and which you will be happy to use an ancient grudge on. Than you can start to weave in some more impactful/exciting non-creature artifact effects. That seems to mesh nicely with the battlecruiser style of the format.

Enchantments seem a lot harder to balance out densities. That probably becomes easier at lower power, since you can condition your removal more heavily, and run a wide variety of pacifism clones across a few colors.

Like, if every game ends up with someone dominating the field with unanswered artifacts/enchantments, the "narrow" answer probably isn't that narrow, it's needed.

In that scenario, you are 100% right that its needed. Unfortunatly, its not very fun :(
 
Well yes, the biggest caveats to my cube is that it is multi player, but i didnt want to warp the conversation just around R/G and artifact hate specific cards. The recent board state which had many artifacts, along with the GG vs RG casting cost discussion, really made me think about guild cards in general and weather wider sections could be viable.

I dont want to have an ONLY midrange cube so do have curve creatures and try to support all possible ranges.

For starters i dont have many board sweepers so going wode can work decently.

Additionally i have trygon predator, sundering growth, the green and white dosenchants and wickerbough elder and conclave naturalists etc... So there is an ok amount.

I agree with grill the thing,that i dont appreciate is how wizards only out artifact hate in red,green and a little white. I dont like that imbalance because ot requires those colors and combinations can only deal with artifacts. In multi it is then strictly on those players decks,to deal with certain cards.

Anyway i was trying to have the discussion revolve around guild colors in general since there are cards like "Slave of Bolas" are powerful and interesting. I do like to have color balance,and guild balance.

Guess there is no ultra correct answer but how it feels to u and your group

Thanks http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/60903
 
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