Sets Seacoast Drake is the Best Card in M14

[FlowerSunRain]

True or false?

In case you don't know, this is 1/3 flying for 1U.

It seems pretty amazing. Cubes are filled with value packed 2/1s. Many of them fly. Seacoast drake hardcounters them. Cube also has lots of equipment. A 1/3 flier carries them like a stud. The downside is that the drake doesn't apply much pressure by itself. Its perfectly boltable. Hero of Oxid Ridge gets right by him. He has answers, unanswered, he just comes down turn 2 and messes with everything aggro decks want to do, then three turns later grabs and equipment and wins the game.

I am shocked no one is talking about this card. He's a beast.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Don't forget Concordia Pegasus

 

[tomchaps]

There are plenty of very strong cards that are very good at blocking. I've found I've had to cut them to help aggro out. A set filled with a ton of 2/5s or 1/3s tends to have stagnant combat and weak aggro.

I agree it's a fine card, but not one I'd want in my cube.

 

[theCubeMiser]

This is not a card I would ever be excited to play in a cube with rares.

 

[Miasmir]

This is not a card I would ever be excited to play in a cube with rares.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

 

[theCubeMiser]

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

Just because you can put "bad" rares in your cube, doesn't make me excited to play another card; just not excited to play anything.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

There are plenty of very strong cards that are very good at blocking. I've found I've had to cut them to help aggro out. A set filled with a ton of 2/5s or 1/3s tends to have stagnant combat and weak aggro.

I agree it's a fine card, but not one I'd want in my cube.

I've found in my cube that stagnant combat and weak aggro are things that are in absolutely no danger of happening.

The thing I like about this card is that allows the typical axis of play to continue. It handles the problem for the slower deck with subtlety and flexibility, rather then simply bashing the other decks ability to interact or requiring immediate and specific interaction in order to continue playing. The Moats and Baneslayers of the world if you will.

I can certainly see not running the card. It is, in and of itself, a boring card. But so is Savannah Lions. We know a cube is not simply the cards in it, but the decks that it makes are what is important. And, frankly, decks that would run Seacoast Drake are something I'd like to see more of. Decks that can interact and fight for control early without the need play sweepers and wait around for a 6 drop.

Also, blue is by far the least drafted color amongst my playgroup, so it can't hurt!

 

[theCubeMiser]

I think the creature just doesn't provide enough value as a card in many situations.

My blue decks would rather want to play counterspells, card filtering, mana rocks, tapped lands, and removal spells on turn 2. Turn three to four really gives blue some breathing room, where it can start playing creature cantrips (Sea Gate Oracle), bounce (Man-o'-War) and flash answers/threats (Pestermite, Vendilion Clique), or, in my cube, aggressive "walls" (Vexing Sphinx, Serendib Efreet, Fettergeist), equipment, or already be ramped to 4 mana where it does broken things.

Sure, it's a flier that can hold swords or whatever. But usually anything at any size can do that, and you can get them elsewhere in blue or white fairly easily. And I'm not convinced that a 1/3 actually does that much against aggro these days. Still dies to a lot of removal, and there are a lot more creature with 3 power running around in cube than their used to be. Your odds of holding an attacker back are not high, trading is a maybe, and simply rolling over is probably a high possibility too.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

There are only "a lot more creatures with 3 power running around in cube than their used to be" if you put more creatures with 3 power then you used to in your cube. That's a fairly tautological point.

More interesting is what one would rather be doing on turn 2 with blue. I want decks with blue to be able to put a dude down on turn two. Right now the dudes blue puts down turn two are great for when they are the aggressor, but basically useless when the other deck has the momentum. I like Seacoast Drake because it is an elegant solution to this problem. Sure, you can remove it easily. But that means they are removing it instead of removing your face. It forces a meaningful expenditure of resources. The blue deck uses counters to bottleneck certain resources and that bottlenecking can't occur with an impetus to utilize those resources.

Now if putting down a dude isn't something you want your blue decks to do turn 2, then obviously Seacoast Drake isn't interesting because its not even an interesting dude. There is no problem to solve, so a 1/3 flier certainly isn't a solution to it.

I think its the best card in M14. What do you think is the best card in M14?

 

[Miasmir]

Just because you can put "bad" rares in your cube, doesn't make me excited to play another card; just not excited to play anything.

If you can't get excited about winning a game because you cast Choice of Damnations, I think we may have some difficulty understanding one another.

I think Seacoast Drake would be playable in my cube; it's like a Fog Bank that doesn't work against midrange in exchange for being harder to burn, better against aggro, and able to attack. I'm not actually looking for a card that's better against aggro than it is against midrange right now but if the need arises the drake is an option. People do play Giant Tortoise when they really really need a blocker at 2 so maybe this should just slot in in its place. On the other hand, the tortoise blocks Porcelain Legionnaire. It's a remarkably subtle choice.

Oh, and I think the best card in M14 is Young Pyromancer.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Well, I'll say if the metric is based on value without momentum, I'd be far more inclined to snap up an Augur of Bolas. Augur has very similar blocking power, and frequently digs into additional gas. It's often just a better Sea Gate Oracle around here.

Control players at one point really complained that they weren't getting enough early game blockers, and cards like Augur and Ludevic's Test Subject helped fill that gap. I like both of those options better than a vanilla flier, especially in terms of making people feel good and excited about the tools they are using.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Oh, and I think the best card in M14 is Young Pyromancer.

This seems to be where the hype is headed. I wonder how well the card will actually fare. There are murmurs of the 1C cycle being complete (Stoneforge, Confidant, Tarmo, Snapcaster, Pyromancer), and I suppose time will tell. I don't think it's quite in that league, but I'm sure there will be deckbuilders out there that prove me wrong. I for one am excited to see Young Pyromancer + Cabal Therapy.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Well, I'll say if the metric is based on value without momentum, I'd be far more inclined to snap up an Augur of Bolas. Augur has very similar blocking power, and frequently digs into additional gas. It's often just a better Sea Gate Oracle around here.

Control players at one point really complained that they weren't getting enough early game blockers, and cards like Augur and Ludevic's Test Subject helped fill that gap. I like both of those options better than a vanilla flier, especially in terms of making people feel good and excited about the tools they are using.

For me, excitement and feeling good comes from getting the most out of the least. Seacoast Drake just sings to me, as a player. Seeing it in a cube pack would get me interested.

I love Ludevic's Test Subject also, but winning with a 13/13 seems academic. Winning because you drew a Seacoast Drake to block there Mistral Charger is intoxicating.

I don't know what it is about Augur of Bolas this seems distasteful to me. Its probably some bias I can't place. I'll pick one up with my next order and give it a whirl.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

If you can't get excited about winning a game because you cast Choice of Damnations, I think we may have some difficulty understanding one another.

I think Seacoast Drake would be playable in my cube; it's like a Fog Bank that doesn't work against midrange in exchange for being harder to burn, better against aggro, and able to attack. I'm not actually looking for a card that's better against aggro than it is against midrange right now but if the need arises the drake is an option. People do play Giant Tortoise when they really really need a blocker at 2 so maybe this should just slot in in its place. On the other hand, the tortoise blocks Porcelain Legionnaire. It's a remarkably subtle choice.

Oh, and I think the best card in M14 is Young Pyromancer.

Me and Giant Tortoise have history together.

The reason I'm enamored with Seacoast Drake over cards like Giant Tortoise, Fog Bank, Wall of Tears and their ilk is the offensive side of the card. I know, I know, what offensive side? 1 power is pathetic. But it has some ability to push damage, which certainly can come up from time to time that is a liability to the other cards.

If all else fails and the card flops I'll just write "flying" on a Giant Tortoise, draw wings on his shell and call it a day. Best of both worlds.

 

[Jason Waddell]

For me, excitement and feeling good comes from getting the most out of the least. Seacoast Drake just sings to me, as a player. Seeing it in a cube pack would get me interested.

I love Ludevic's Test Subject also, but winning with a 13/13 seems academic. Winning because you drew a Seacoast Drake to block there Mistral Charger is intoxicating.

I don't know what it is about Augur of Bolas this seems distasteful to me. Its probably some bias I can't place. I'll pick one up with my next order and give it a whirl.

Yeah, this feels like it's pretty heavily in the personal preference domain (not that there's anything wrong with that). I can see the card's appeal, but I would imagine most players don't get the same thrill out of a vanilla creature with a back end.

 

[Eric Chan]

When I read FSR's original post, I had that really strong "Not sure if trolling" feeling. Is this guy for serious? Turns out you are. I've really enjoyed your well-reasoned, thoughtful posts, and I'm struck by your enthusiasm for a two mana defensive french vanilla creature. It's probably never a card I'd consider for my own list, but I love the passion with which you continue to defend it.

And I'm a little late on the actual discussion, but a 1/3 for does a ton of work against aggro. Just tonight Augur of Bolas stonewalled my Elite Vanguard and Dryad Militant hard, and that won't be the last time that happens. I'm actively wishing Wizards would print more 1/3's for two in black with marginal, upside, actually, as I feel that's exactly what my black section could use. Child of Night does a fine Lone Missionary impression at the moment, but I could really go for something with a beefier back end.

 

[theCubeMiser]

There are only "a lot more creatures with 3 power running around in cube than their used to be" if you put more creatures with 3 power then you used to in your cube. That's a fairly tautological point.

I don't mean it to be. I think it's a reasonable assumption for someone to know what I meant: the general case for a regular cube owner is to increase the power level of cards available, and with aggro creatures that usually means having more power. Examples of cards that are fairly common now include Porcelain Legionnaire, Knight of Glory, Spike Jester, Gore-House Chainwalker, etc. Maybe you're intentionally not using these cards, and that's fine, but I'm just trying to state what I think is probably the average case, and not just "because I said so."

More interesting is what one would rather be doing on turn 2 with blue. I want decks with blue to be able to put a dude down on turn two. Right now the dudes blue puts down turn two are great for when they are the aggressor, but basically useless when the other deck has the momentum. I like Seacoast Drake because it is an elegant solution to this problem. Sure, you can remove it easily. But that means they are removing it instead of removing your face. It forces a meaningful expenditure of resources. The blue deck uses counters to bottleneck certain resources and that bottlenecking can't occur with an impetus to utilize those resources.

Now if putting down a dude isn't something you want your blue decks to do turn 2, then obviously Seacoast Drake isn't interesting because its not even an interesting dude. There is no problem to solve, so a 1/3 flier certainly isn't a solution to it.

I think its the best card in M14. What do you think is the best card in M14?

So I took a look at my blue 1-2 drops. There's a pretty wide range of function in them, and I'll say that none of them are particularly defensive in nature. I have gone fairly deep into making blue a more tempo oriented, less-defensive, color in my cube. So perhaps it's not that I don't want to play a creature on turn 2, but that I don't generally want many cards in my cube to be purely defensive in nature. I'd like to think that because of that it makes attacking more common in general and as an answer to planeswalkers, but there's way too many factors working together for me to say that.

Imposing Sovereign looks really strong, and a likely candidate for best M14 card for cube. I'm anxiously awaiting to see how Young Pyromancer fares.

Mindsparker looks strong as well. In fact, most of the color-hosing creatures are pretty good, if you don't mind including hate like that, since their worst case isn't horrible for the cost.

 

[Jason Waddell]

So I took a look at my blue 1-2 drops. There's a pretty wide range of function in them, and I'll say that none of them are particularly defensive in nature. I have gone fairly deep into making blue a more tempo oriented, less-defensive, color in my cube. So perhaps it's not that I don't want to play a creature on turn 2, but that I don't generally want many cards in my cube to be purely defensive in nature. I'd like to think that because of that it makes attacking more common in general and as an answer to planeswalkers, but there's way too many factors working together for me to say that.

Yeah, it's a delicate balance. My cube is extremely aggressive, to the point where control simply doesn't stand a chance without some early defensive guys. There are many dynamics that can work, and as long as it's working for you I'd say that's a good thing.

 

[theCubeMiser]

I've basically embraced a WotC-style high creature count [except none of them outright suck] in all colors (with blue still on the low end, of course, and white/green the most). It's seems to work out well, particularly because it means even if your draft goes awry, you (or a new cube player) can pull together some kind of midrange-ish monstrosity and be able to rely on having enough playable cards.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I don't mean it to be. I think it's a reasonable assumption for someone to know what I meant: the general case for a regular cube owner is to increase the power level of cards available, and with aggro creatures that usually means having more power. Examples of cards that are fairly common now include Porcelain Legionnaire, Knight of Glory, Spike Jester, Gore-House Chainwalker, etc. Maybe you're intentionally not using these cards, and that's fine, but I'm just trying to state what I think is probably the average case, and not just "because I said so."

The general case of the regular cube owner may be a point of mild interest, but in the end each individual cube owner has complete control of what is in their cube, regardless as to what the Jones are putting in theirs. I'm not saying your observation is incorrect or that the conclusion you draw from it is invalid, but rather that the observation (and the resulting conclusions) itself has little meaning beyond perhaps to illuminate my "[shock that] no one is talking about this card". In truth I'm not actually shocked. I'm just a bad writer who overuses exaggeration in order to cover up the fact that I have trouble expressing my emotions.

The entire exercise of cube design is deciding which cards to include and which ones not to include. The fact that a certain card is included in a cube should never be assumed to be self-evident and should always be open to questioning. Indeed, when you say that there are a lot of creatures in cube with 3 power, I don't see that as a knock against Seacoast Drake. I see that as a separate (and only tangentially related conversation) about whether or not there SHOULD be a lot of creatures in cube with 3 power.

When you bring up something like "what I want to do on turn 2 with blue", it is interesting. It makes me think. It helps me evaluate. It gives me insight into how you play and helps me better utilize your responses. It inspires me to refine and clarify, hopefully leading to a coherent statement that may end up helping someone else. I too dug down into my blue two drops and really started to ponder over what I want blue to be doing, deciding if what blue could currently do was interesting and coherent, how it could be made better and if Seacoast Drake (or Giant Tortoise!) have a place there. Now that is a nice place to be.

 

[theCubeMiser]

I'll admit I haven't looked at your list to see where your thought processes led you to want to include this card in your cube. It might be just what you want for blue to be doing.

But, I still think that what's going to happen with most "let's talk about *New Card*" discussions is that they will revolve around what is already in existing cubes (e.g. 3-power aggro) and how it interacts with that, and not usually lead to a major discussion about something related and turn it into a discussion of whether that is the thing that cubes should be doing in the first place. The thread is mostly about the one card and how it meshes in with existing environments, unless it has a kind of format-warping effect of its own (creates a new archetype or other major interaction in cube, like if Kiki-Jiki was just spoiled for the first time today).

Confession time: Giant Tortoise was in my cube for a lot longer than it deserved because of my unnatural love for it from "back in the day". I also dabbled in other interesting 1/3s for 2, like Aquamoeba (reanimator support!), which may see life again in another cube project.

EDIT: Also I'd like to say this has been a really good discussion, even if it got off on the wrong foot.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I'll admit I haven't looked at your list to see where your thought processes led you to want to include this card in your cube. It might be just what you want for blue to be doing.

But, I still think that what's going to happen with most "let's talk about *New Card*" discussions is that they will revolve around what is already in existing cubes (e.g. 3-power aggro) and how it interacts with that, and not usually lead to a major discussion about something related and turn it into a discussion of whether that is the thing that cubes should be doing in the first place. The thread is mostly about the one card and how it meshes in with existing environments, unless it has a kind of format-warping effect of its own (creates a new archetype or other major interaction in cube, like if Kiki-Jiki was just spoiled for the first time today).

Confession time: Giant Tortoise was in my cube for a lot longer than it deserved because of my unnatural love for it from "back in the day". I also dabbled in other interesting 1/3s for 2, like Aquamoeba (reanimator support!), which may see life again in another cube project.

EDIT: Also I'd like to say this has been a really good discussion, even if it got off on the wrong foot.

So this is actually a really interesting topic and one that is hard to address. I deal with a variant of it in my ChannelFireball cube reviews.

All cubes are different. However, if we just say they are different and leave it at that we don't have much common ground for discussion. "There are infinitely many cubes, and this card performs differently in all of them." Obviously that's not very satisfying. For discourse we need to have some context.

There are effectively two conversations that need to happen. First, "is this card good in my cube?". The difficulty of this question varies by card, and the more Magic and cube experience you have, the easier it gets to answer this question. Some cube discussions only exist at this level.

Secondly, "is this card good for my cube?". This is a layer that cube discussions often did not get to in the past. Does its inclusion improve my gameplay dynamics? Here we have to move much further into the realm of subjectivity. I will say for my group, I don't know whether Seacoast Drake or Kalonian Hydra make it a more fun experience. The interesting part is that in actual game design almost all the dialogue happens at this level. Does this card/mechanic/map/weapon/character help to make our game more fun? It's difficult, fuzzy, subjective, and has no one universal answer.

It's also a question that takes a lot more time and judgment to think about. I can shove two cards in front of any FNM player and they can more often than not identify the more powerful one. But not every FNM player can craft a fun environment with the right mix of various elements that doesn't result in too many non-games or noninteractive matches or interesting degrees of overlap between archetypes. But I believe that by treating cube design as a game design exercise as opposed to card evaluation exercise, we yield much more enjoyable results.

 

[theCubeMiser]

I really agree with you on that, Jason. Additionally, I think discussions like these take on a "is this a good card in/for most cubes" motif once a significant number of people with different philosophies or cube setups are involved. Eventually they may not even be very useful, or everyone will have to qualify how/why a card works better than another in their particular environment.

I'm actually pretty happy that the bar for a cube discussion is being risen to "how can a cube be more fun/better" (or "what makes a fun cube") rather than simply "what makes my cube more powerful".

I contended with this a little fairly early on in my cube design (things like no fast mana, while still allowing some broken plays that require setup) and have continued to refine what I define as "fun" time and time again. Some mill-10 cards have been cut, and Mind Twist has been cut - which was an original reason to preemptively ban fast mana in the first place. And I've got some themed side projects that are trying to explore different facets of Magic that can make for a fun limited environment, and they all deserve more attention than I've given them so far.

I take it back, FSR - Seacoast Drake may be the best card in M14, if only because for a French Vanilla creature, it sparked a discussion above and beyond it's simple existence about cube power level and the roles cards have in it.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Yeah, fun maximization is incredibly difficult. 20 years later and Wizards are still improving at it.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I'm really excited for Young Pyromancer and Imposing Sovereign as well. You see, I'm going to take out Cloistered Youth and Gore-House Chainwalker for them. And then, Seacoast Drake, you will have your day!

I'm also very interested in Voracious Wurm. This is a great set for 1C cards. Is there a black one worth playing?

EDIT: GNAWING ZOMBIE IS A 1/3!!! ZOUNDS!!!

Nah, nevermind that ability just costs too much.