General Self-Sufficient Tribal Payoffs

While I don't really like the classic, parasitic tribal deck in cube, I really enjoy cards like Imperious Perfect, Graveborn Muse or Anowon, the Ruin Sage, as these cards might appeal to decks with very few or even zero cards of that tribe - and still can change the way one drafts. So I thought, we should create a collection here. Just post all that you can come up with, every power level is fine, except those were Gray Ogre is a good card.



I bet you guys can come up with many more.
 

just watch out! It can get pretty snowball-y. Maybe a better include if you don't have a large flying component to UW.
 
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if you have a Big Ramp deck, I see no reason why not. There are incidental elves that would end up being in the same deck (arbor elf etc.), so it probably would have some secondary value.
 

I really like Spellstutter with incidental Faeries synergies, like Bitterblossom, Borrower, Vendilion, Pestermite, Glen Elendra and Sower. I'm thinking about adding Scion of Oona too, since it's decent on its own and can be played by someone that wants a card to glue together the Faerie mini-theme of these seven cards
 
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How is Scion of Oona decent on it's own? It is a 3 mana 1/1 flier with flash, that's ... bad. That card is like the opposite of what this thread is about :p
 
I will keep bringing this card up whenever it's relevant:



EDIT: I probably should explain why I like it so much.

If you just play the front side, it's a weak Splicer that happens to have a much bigger butt. If it flips... well, just look at that thing.

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I was just reminded of a potentially silly take on this:



If you have no other Treefolk in your decks, you still have a 0/3 for {G} that puts a Forest on top of your library, a potentially beefy 4-drop, and a 4/6 for {4}{G} that makes your Forests indestructible. I think you could make this into a mini theme in your Green section with cards like

 
Well, I would count Dauntless Dourbark. I a mono green deck he is at least a 5/5 for 4 and growing for sure. He probably like being alongside a few treefolk, and the more of these you run, the less forests you need.
 
Are you considering the treefolk "self-sufficient" because they technically mention forests?


Yes, and there's no "technically" about it - though I will admit that the two that aren't called Treefolk Harbinger are much more questionable.

But the Harbinger? With no other Treefolk, it can ensure that you'll draw into a dual land next turn, while simultaneously leaving behind a 0/3 body. For {G}.
 
0/3 bodies are generally not worth a card, see Phyrexian Walker. In general, a vanilla needs to have at least 2 power to be worth a card. It might be ok if you have a couple of treefolk or changelings in the cube because you can choose whether to draw a forest or a creature, but I don't think drawing a tapped dual on T2 is that good, or the second green source. Might be playable at a low power if you have good creatures to tutor or if 2/xs are running rampant in the environment.
 
Yes, and there's no "technically" about it - though I will admit that the two that aren't called Treefolk Harbinger are much more questionable.

But the Harbinger? With no other Treefolk, it can ensure that you'll draw into a dual land next turn, while simultaneously leaving behind a 0/3 body. For {G}.
A 0/3 body for {G} isn't that great, especially if we are talking about tribes and the best tribe it is self-sufficient in is "forests". Especially not great needing to list off 7 other treefolk that could be wrapped into a theme, when talking about self-sufficiency.
 
Guys, could you please lay off a bit? I'm sorry, I'm just sensing a lot of aggression here, and I'm not sure how or why I pissed you off?
Sorry. The dogpile was certainly unintentional, as japahn posted while I was writing mine.

I do actually think treefolk tribal is really cool (I used to run Doran rock in modern!)
 
No problem - I just wanted to make sure that I hadn't inadvertently insulted everything you hold dear by suggesting a 0/3. :p

For the record, I was mostly bringing up those 7 other cards as a "this might be a fun theme", not a "you need this for the self-sufficient cards to be worth it".
 


Haven't seen these mentioned before, but they fit the bill. Keeper is a bit boring and making 2/2 flyers is usually enough to win before it flips.

Champion is actually alright. 4/4 that draws a card at minimum can be a good baseline at lower power levels.

Krenko is very dangerous, but the fact you have to untap with him at 4 mana kind of keeps him in check.
 
Champion of Dusk is a fun play the turn after a Immersturm predator or similar. Most Vampires tend to be in black, so it probably won't send a "confusing draft signal" or whatever. Nice card.
 
In general, I feel like people are overvaluing the "wrong signaling" from cards like these. It's just a feeling, but I'd say most experienced players would be able to understand that a Champion of Dusk doesn't necessarily mean there is a full blown vampire tribal archetype and to adequatly draft and build a functioning deck. And in my experience many newbies just don't have the expectation either, because they might have not even seen a "real" tribal deck.

Also, the philosophy behind self-sufficient tribal is, that every card in a cube should be at least decent on it's own, so how bad can it really end for the newbie drafting? They'll pick up Champion of Dusk, maaayybe expecting to go full vampires, then they are a bit annoyed because they had to pick so many zombies, humans and rats, but they will probably still do fine with their 4-vampire deck.

Maybe I am undervaluing it, but doesn't the deepness of the format outweigh these minor issues?
 
I'm on team ravnic here. Aren't we almost always duct taping together really disparate cards into a deck when drafting cube anyway? Like, for the most part cubes will contain a lot of different mechanics and effects that in their original environment was part of a "thing" (like revolt, for instance) that now just shows up as a single thing. The difference between a self-sufficient tribal card and something like a lord is that you can just slot in Champion of Dusk as a big sized Dusk Legion Zealot in like a GB midrange deck and feel pretty happy about it.
 
These cards in particular are going to be the best at avoiding "mis-signaling", because it's more apparent that they have a self-contained function. They are still much more isolated than most other "named" mechanics or features, which can have drafting and other downsides. What if your drafter evaluates Champ as worth it because they expect it to draw 2+ cards on average, but don't really want it for their deck at only 1 card? They want the truly tribal payoff and would rather have picked a better-in-a-vacuum card in that pack if they had known otherwise. Even if it works out in the end, it's an expectation->reality disconnect, which is always unfortunate.

The difference between that and a given example, revolt, is that revolt can be easily supported widely throughout the cube without any pretense at needing it to be self-sufficient. Same goes for most other commonly run mechanics. They integrate seamlessly into a large chunk of the cube/set. Revolt isn't supported by "revolt tribal" in Aether Revolt. It's supported by the fabric of the set involving a lot of permanents sacrificing themselves in various ways, so that it's patently obvious to all but an extremely new player how revolt can be utilized. Same goes for basically any "traditional" mechanic. They might seem disparate compared 1-t0-1, but most of them are intricately supported via other card selections throughout the cube. Like even if you only have 1 double strike creature in your entire cube, you probably have a few equipment, right? Some +1/+1 counters? An aggro deck that wants a 2/2 double striker at face value? Hopefully you can see what I'm getting at. Even the most "isolated" traditional mechanic usually has ingrained support elsewhere, which isn't always the case for tribal mechanics, especially if we are specifically trying to make them stand alone.

This isn't to say I'm trying to pick on the Champ in particular. I do think it's a perfectly serviceable card.
 
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