Dom Harvey
Contributor
why do you even play Magic if you don't want to Pod Gurmag Angler into Craterhoof Behemoth
Card/Deck Someone sell me on Birthing Pod (but first, long backstory)
- Thread starter Hathaway
- Start date
Here:
Ah... another guy who doesn't like planeswalkers. If I didn't know you weren't me, I would have said I wrote that. In fact, when I read it I wondered if maybe I had clicked on some old post that I DID actually write. But I digress...
Yeah, so birthing pod is cool in that you have to put a little work into getting really good value out of it. I refuse to use 3 or 4 cube slots for the card though. That mostly has to do with the fact that I'm not really interested in guys making constructed level decks (by that I mean consistency wise). One thing I love about limited - the only thing I liked about traditional limited honestly - was how different each hand generally played because it was just a pile of (mostly) singleton cards. This is even more true in cube. Each game you may not even see any of the cards from the previous game, so it takes a lot longer for me to get bored with a deck. You also get to see a lot of interesting interactions happen organically. That to me is the greatest part of playing cube. Building a deck and having it do what you expected is all well and good, but having it do something you didn't really plan for and having that be a powerful thing.... now that is just plain awesome.
Of course, pod interacts in a lot of different and interesting ways too, so you can also use my arguments against me and say having more pods opens up more possibilities. And I honestly don't think you'd be wrong in doing that and I see why some guys therefore choose to go that route with multiple pods.
I like your list (minus the 4 random walkers in there... WTF man didn't you just tell us you didn't like them?). Anyway, you should make a post in the cube list section. I have some questions on a few cards I've thought about running but don't want to clutter up this thread.
Yeah, so birthing pod is cool in that you have to put a little work into getting really good value out of it. I refuse to use 3 or 4 cube slots for the card though. That mostly has to do with the fact that I'm not really interested in guys making constructed level decks (by that I mean consistency wise). One thing I love about limited - the only thing I liked about traditional limited honestly - was how different each hand generally played because it was just a pile of (mostly) singleton cards. This is even more true in cube. Each game you may not even see any of the cards from the previous game, so it takes a lot longer for me to get bored with a deck. You also get to see a lot of interesting interactions happen organically. That to me is the greatest part of playing cube. Building a deck and having it do what you expected is all well and good, but having it do something you didn't really plan for and having that be a powerful thing.... now that is just plain awesome.
Of course, pod interacts in a lot of different and interesting ways too, so you can also use my arguments against me and say having more pods opens up more possibilities. And I honestly don't think you'd be wrong in doing that and I see why some guys therefore choose to go that route with multiple pods.
I like your list (minus the 4 random walkers in there... WTF man didn't you just tell us you didn't like them?). Anyway, you should make a post in the cube list section. I have some questions on a few cards I've thought about running but don't want to clutter up this thread.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Maybe he doesn't like walkers, but his group does!
I hated walkers when they came out. I felt like they warped the game around themselves to a level that made it not fun. I have the reputation locally for "ruining the game" because I played Upheaval-Psychatog at FNM and Saturday Standard events for over a year. I wish I was lying when I say that I finished top 4 (and in the prizes) every time. I was willing to play an abusive set of cards in a local community of 30 or so who didn't. Basically everyone quit coming to local events because "it wasn't fun." So I understand now what they felt then.
That was an odd tangent. Anyway...
I don't like that *most* walkers warp the game. I agree that I have four in my cube, but they were gifts that players asked to be included, and they are mostly benign. I do keep a close eye on them though, as it won't take much to remove them. I feel like Garruk is a fair finisher for green, and so far, in my group, no one has blown anyone out with planeswalkers. You won't soon see Elspeth though.
Thanks for the feedback!
Aoret
Developer
Seems like the consensus is that pod isn't right for your list, but I'll add my two cents to sell any future readers on the card.
It seems like most replies focused on the fact that adding pods makes drafting more fun. That's definitely true, but I don't think that's the sell. To me, the sell is that having a Birthing Pod in play makes the complexity of your possible lines of play absolutely explode in a way that few other cards in cube do. There are very, very few other cards that give me such a dramatic impression of being unable to correctly pilot my own deck.
And yes, 3 is the right number in a 360 (I believe Jason is quoted as saying it's actually 3.5, and having only ever run 4 and never run 3 I'm inclined to believe him).
It seems like most replies focused on the fact that adding pods makes drafting more fun. That's definitely true, but I don't think that's the sell. To me, the sell is that having a Birthing Pod in play makes the complexity of your possible lines of play absolutely explode in a way that few other cards in cube do. There are very, very few other cards that give me such a dramatic impression of being unable to correctly pilot my own deck.
And yes, 3 is the right number in a 360 (I believe Jason is quoted as saying it's actually 3.5, and having only ever run 4 and never run 3 I'm inclined to believe him).
I've now run at different times 1-4 in a 360 and also think that 3 is the best. That said, right now I'm only running two, and running a pair of Collected Companies to balance that out (and to give Pod a slight break). Here's what I think you get at different multiples:
1/360: some green creature decks will have a little more synergy, but ultimately the inconsistency means building around the card is much harder and has less payoff.
2/360: Where I am right now. Two pods means we sometimes get a dedicated pod deck (two pods) and sometimes get one or two creature decks that do fiddly things and want redundancy. Pod has been a mainstay of our ecology so shifting down to two copies should hopefully promote other creature decks as well (ideally CoCo ones).
3/360: Now we're cooking with oil! Someone will probably be enticed by the Pods into drafting a "pod deck" and pick up two (typically value pod) or three (more likely something 'unfair'). If there's one leftover, someone else might draft it and go for their own pod chains. Alternately, if nobody's interested, the least-interesting midrange deck in your draft will pick them up, and now it's full of wide decision trees (except when they forget to draft four-drops, teaching them to watch their curves in the future)
4/360: Birthing Pod wheels forever. The Pod drafter gets all four and puts one in their sideboard. Sometimes, though, there are two pod drafters, with two pods each and two diverse pod decks, and then everybody else gets to watch a really fascinating mirror! That was the coolest part about running 4.
1/360: some green creature decks will have a little more synergy, but ultimately the inconsistency means building around the card is much harder and has less payoff.
2/360: Where I am right now. Two pods means we sometimes get a dedicated pod deck (two pods) and sometimes get one or two creature decks that do fiddly things and want redundancy. Pod has been a mainstay of our ecology so shifting down to two copies should hopefully promote other creature decks as well (ideally CoCo ones).
3/360: Now we're cooking with oil! Someone will probably be enticed by the Pods into drafting a "pod deck" and pick up two (typically value pod) or three (more likely something 'unfair'). If there's one leftover, someone else might draft it and go for their own pod chains. Alternately, if nobody's interested, the least-interesting midrange deck in your draft will pick them up, and now it's full of wide decision trees (except when they forget to draft four-drops, teaching them to watch their curves in the future)
4/360: Birthing Pod wheels forever. The Pod drafter gets all four and puts one in their sideboard. Sometimes, though, there are two pod drafters, with two pods each and two diverse pod decks, and then everybody else gets to watch a really fascinating mirror! That was the coolest part about running 4.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
It's great for former smokers! (Because you breathe in... No? Never mind...)
Aoret
Developer
I don't really have anything against folks running low pod densities (agree that it's a fine one off).
Where I'm a bit confused are these stories of oppressively powerful pod decks. I just haven't seen it - not even once. Generally speaking if somebody dicks around too much trying to establish silly value chains they just get killed. Is this really a pod problem? Or is it like a Thragtusk problem or something?
Where I'm a bit confused are these stories of oppressively powerful pod decks. I just haven't seen it - not even once. Generally speaking if somebody dicks around too much trying to establish silly value chains they just get killed. Is this really a pod problem? Or is it like a Thragtusk problem or something?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I'm guessing its more of a thragtusk problem. I've ran pod in cubes where its pretty bad. Its worth is really tied to the density of value ETBs you run, and thraggy is the king of midrange value.
Its a good card, but I kind of get tired of it. You either went into the pod deck or you didn't, and I never had much luck with creative variations of it.
Its a good card, but I kind of get tired of it. You either went into the pod deck or you didn't, and I never had much luck with creative variations of it.
I don't think I've ever seen a super oppressive Pod deck here, and I've seen decks come together in like 3-4 different drafts. Valuable ETB creatures are a premium in whatever decks that are built, not just pod, so there's usually enough competition to avoid someone building the nut Pod deck.
I think it's actually the opposite of oppressive, whatever that may be - it doesn't actually do much of anything in a variety of green decks, as it's card disadvantage if you're either creature-light or just haven't drafted a curve with hits at every stop. Again, this is a card that scales well with the environment's power level; it did next to nothing in Standard, but was dominant in Modern, so take a long, hard look at your cube's power level before deciding whether Pods would be a good fit.
It unfortunately didn't appeal to either the Timmies nor the Johnnies here, and didn't perform well enough to warrant consideration by the Spikes, so it wasn't long before it was on its way out.
It unfortunately didn't appeal to either the Timmies nor the Johnnies here, and didn't perform well enough to warrant consideration by the Spikes, so it wasn't long before it was on its way out.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I actually had the same experience, and thought it was strange. You would think Timmy would want it in the value green decks they like to draft, and Johnny would want to brew around it, but no.
Yeah, Birthing Pod is an interesting design. I'm not sure who it was made for, but after seeing it in the wild, as it were, I'm starting to think it was designed specifically to cater to Spikes. It's not big nor splashy enough for Timmy, who wants cards that read amazing and play larger than life; it's not quite combo-y enough for Johnny, who wants to generate a three card loop that they can recur over and over again while cackling with delight. It's a pure value card, plain and simple, which only appeals to the Spikes in the room, but when that value engine is overshadowed by everything going on in a cube environment, the Spikes won't see fit to give it the time of day.
Definitely a major combo enabler around here, but that's likely because there are former Kiki-Pod players in our group. Kiki-Resto and Finks-Sac-Anafenza are two I've seen out of my cube, to varying degrees of sucess.
As I only run one copy, it's more like Fauna Shaman/Survival of the Fittest redundancy with a bit more combo potential. It doesn't get drafted much because it's too much work for most guys in my group (having to remember how many 4 drops you have in your deck and all that). I like it though which is why it hasn't been cut yet.
It was actually a pretty strong card in Standard from what I remember, but there were a few shells so there wasn't really one dominant "the Birthing Pod deck."
A non-comprehensive list of cards you got to play with Birthing Pod during its tenure in Standard:
1- Birds of Paradise, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Llanowar Elves, Grim Lavamancer
2- Phantasmal Image, Strangleroot Geist, Viridian Emissary, Elvish Visionary
3- Deceiver Exarch, Blade Splicer, Tuktuk the Explorer, Pyreheart Wolf
4- Restoration Angel, Solemn Simulacrum, Phyrexian Metamorph, Stonehorn Dignitary, Hero of Bladehold
5- Thragtusk, Acidic Slime, Zealous Conscripts, Wolfir Silverheart, Vorapede, Urabrask
6- Wurmcoil Engine, Primeval Titan, Inferno Titan, Grave Titan, Sun Titan, Frost Titan
7- Elesh Norn, Sheoldred
X- Green Sun's Zenith
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I might want to cut down to 3/450. My drafters are seriously cautious about trying it, and try to commit a little too hard to it when they do play it.
I mean I'm not an amazing player, but back when pod was in modern, I don't think this was one of those common lines of play:
T1: Elvish Mystic
T2: Pod, Pay 2 Life
T3: Pod Elvish Mystic into Scavenging Ooze
T4: Pod Ooze into Courser of Kruphix
I just Hero's Downfalled the Courser and killed him.
I mean I'm not an amazing player, but back when pod was in modern, I don't think this was one of those common lines of play:
T1: Elvish Mystic
T2: Pod, Pay 2 Life
T3: Pod Elvish Mystic into Scavenging Ooze
T4: Pod Ooze into Courser of Kruphix
I just Hero's Downfalled the Courser and killed him.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Thats kind of what happened over here, the players were really confused by it even after I drafted a few great pod decks. Keep in mind this was in a format where sacing stuff to the yard was actively good. Thats why I think you need a metric ton of etb creatures: that way you are just upgrading one creature and getting a free spell everytime. It gives a bit of a tool box feel, and paying 2 mana to bring skinrender into play feels better than paying 4 mana for last gasp and hill giant.
Well we are on topic of strange things drafters do with cards, has anyone had odd experiences with carrion feeder? Over here, if its not in a low curve gravecrawler aggro deck it just wheels. Its been one of the worst cards in the cube for a while now because its so narrow.
Well we are on topic of strange things drafters do with cards, has anyone had odd experiences with carrion feeder? Over here, if its not in a low curve gravecrawler aggro deck it just wheels. Its been one of the worst cards in the cube for a while now because its so narrow.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I wish feeder was good on it's own, but when he's good he's REALLY good.If I've got extra mana in my sac decks, putting 1-2 counters on him post combat is strong (Much less so with bloodsoaked champion)