Card/Deck Targeted Discard

[blacksmithy]

Hi gang, I am very curious what kind of targeted discard everyone runs and their reasoning behind it.

Currently i’m running a high power fair environment, but i’ve chosen to completely eschew targeted discard and instead pull blacks color identity harder towards creature removal, magecraft, and recursion.

My reasoning is twofold: first, that (IMO) targeted discard is most effective against combo, which is nonexistent in my cube, therefore it’s not strictly needed in the environment to keep unfair decks in check; and second, it feels bad to get Thoughtseized and dramatically reduces the agency of the player targeted by these effects, therefore it’s not worth the bad player experience it will cause.

However, lately I’ve been considering adding some “specialized” targeted discard to the environment, such as Blackmail and Zyym, Mesmeric Lord, as I feel these create interesting subgames and won’t feel as bad but should still be effective within my power band.

What do you run? Why do you run it?

 

[TrainmasterGT]

What do you run? Why do you run it?

So you know, I run a bit. I'm mostly running all of these to replicate the Thoughtseize and Brain Maggot that were common back when I started playing Magic. I want to make sure my Black Midrange and Control decks are able to deal with problem spells at an efficient rate, and these cards are very helpful in doing that.

 

[sigh]

That's it. I find in general this sort of effect isn't needed in my format in great quantity or at a "high power". I like having the couple non-creature discard effects so Bx creature-based decks have some tools for dealing with troublesome instants/sorceries/etc, like wraths.

 

[inscho]

Currently running:



As well as:



Not exactly a robust pool, but I find that this small discard suite in addition to other disruptive pieces is enough for my needs.

I don't really care about feel bads in my format. I support some combo in my cube. I want disruption and resource denial to be a meaningful part of my meta. It's such a unique angle of attack, and adds dimension to aggro and pairs well with land destruction. I grew up on constructed formats defined by combo and resource denial, and I try and capture that vibe with my cube. I just really appreciate how they complexify a meta and influence drafting, deckbuilding, and gameplay.

 

[Chriskool]

Discard is in a weird play space!

Higher-powered: Grid has only 5 total discard spells of 162 cards. I tried Throughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek but found them to disrupt the game too easily (which sounds similar to blacksmithy's experience). Went down from three to two Cabal Therapies as two in opening hands also disrupted the game too easily as well; I am a big fan of the play experience of Therapy (especially with lots of multiples in card population): name-a-card mini-game, cast two spells, sacrifice a creature. Peek & Meddling Mage support the discard.


Lower-powered 1: Grid has only two discards spells of 162 cards. These are mostly included to give black identity beyond graveyard recursion and removal. Drill Bit's low alternate casting cost and the 2/2 body of Exarch have played well. I've been surprised that Exarch's discard has played better than the Gravedigger mode would have (assumedly) in many games!


Lower-powered 2: Grid is only Esper colors and 180 cards. These are mostly included to give black different identity (as above) and add some counterplay to countermagic/high-mana-value. I don't have as many thoughts here.


It's also interesting that the PPincher only has Kitesail Freebooter for targeted "discard".

 

[blacksmithy]

freebooter and therapy are good ones i’d forgotten about, i think they play into the “subgame-creating discard” i want to use

 

[japahn]

I don't have a hard rule against targeted discard, but when I ran Thoughtseize, it felt like a synergy disruption card that didn't really help the environment, because "synergy decks" didn't need to be disrupted that hard, at least at the time. So I cut it and just never felt the need to add it back. Note I run Stupor, Blightning and Blackmail, which aren't as effective early on, so they give the opposing deck a change to play their payoff or whatever piece needs to get under the discard.

Freebooter is different, but the nature of being more like temporary discard makes it quite fair. The opponent is usually able to recoup the card if they want to.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I'm not sure where I stand on these cards TBH. I'd mostly not ran targeted discard as they serve a similar (but mirrored) role to ponder et al, just instead of making your game of magic better they make your opponents worse.

If your power delta is small, and you're not running high impact 2 card combos, discard can take on a more tempo oriented feeling: taking someone's only 2 drop to throw off their curve for example. I just never really dove deep into the card type, I just ran tomb pillage instead:

Spoiler: Card Image

No joke: I added in two copies of inquisition of kozilek purely because the Strixhaven Mystic Archive looks so good.

 

[Erik Twice]

I don't think targeted discard is a good mechanic, especially in the context of Magic: The Gathering. However, it is one of the very few ways to interact with instant or sorceries and, to a lesser degree, enchantments and artifacts in certain colours. It's also a different effect than "destroy target permanent", which helps.

 

[blacksmithy]

this thread is just reinforcing that if i’m gonna add any discard, it’s gonna be Blackmail, Freebooter, Zyym, and Cabal Therapy
EDIT: for the same reasons i run Censor and Miscalc but not Counterspell and FOW

 

[Brad]

Sorry if this has been said, I just skimmed.

Seeing the opponent's hand makes this weird scenario where you have to write down every card and keep track of it and look like a tryhard or look like an idiot when you forget a card. I dislike that in addition to disliking proactively ruining their game. If you mulligan and get hit with a t1 discard, you might as well pack it up.

 

[TekLazar]

Currently I don't run any but that was because my players didn't like their Zacama, Primal Calamity getting Blackmailed.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

If you dig around, there's a very interesting (if somewhat heated) discussion on these board about Thoughtseize specifically. That post by grillo accusing me of not arguing in good faith still hurts, but I have since changed my point of view and cut Thoughtseize from my cube. One of the better posts that explain why Thoughtseize is such a wretched card is this one by RBM. I now firmly believe that flexible targeted discard effects shouldn't be put at 1 mana, because at that price point they come at virtually no cost (I used to think this was an upside, imagine that), while absolutely wrecking an opponent's plans. I think is the right cost for flexible targeted discard. Here's the (targeted and untargeted) discard spells I run in my cube.



It's likely some changes to this list will be made if I ever find the energy to update for Strixhaven and later sets, specifically these two both look promising.

 

[sigh]

That is quite the discard suite onder! Even with it starting at 2 mana.

Thanks for linking that thread, it was fun reading through it again. Makes me ponder dropping the duress for a double up on collective brutality or an add of kitesail freebooter. Or something to that effect. Duress has fewer of the issues that Thoughtsieze does, but is still 1 mana "permanent" discard. I'm not quite sure if I think it hitting artifacts/enchants is an upside or a downside.

 

[Velrun]

I voted ‘Other’ because my cube runs both high power and low power discard spells.

I would have voted ‘All’ if that had been an option

 

[blacksmithy]

After reading through all this, i feel pretty good about leaving discard out of my fair cube USUALLY, but i think i am going to try the following discard suite themed around “subgame creation” as an occasionals package:

Spoiler