How willing are you to go into the combo territories with the cards like living death? I get the feeling that all this card draw will help people that rely on one narrow card, since they'll be churning through their decks so fast. The same goes for cards like nemesis of mortals as well (which I think is positive!).
The 'Draw-a-Card' cube
- Thread starter Laz
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Living death might be a little bit too much reward for too little effort with all of the cycling.
A few other classic tortured existence cards
A few other classic tortured existence cards
Laz
Developer
There are only 54 creatures with Cycling in Magic, but 5 of them are simply creatures with protection from an enemy colour, which is something I would rather avoid (I once got beat to death in 2 swings in a multiplayer Conspiracy draft because I had the temerity to play swamps. Good mechanic that one). There is also the 5-card Gempalm cycle, which is heavily tribal, a road that I don't feel I can commit to. Add to this the Time Spiral cards with 'Slivercycling' and 'Wizardcycling' and the number of Cycling creatures that I feel comfortable playing is very diminished. (Then again, I could go the shard-oriented direction, with 5 supported colour pairs; which has been written about elsewhere)
I am however fine to think of these as my 'commons' and just run multiple copies. I imagine that these will be on the lower end of the power scale for this environment, but will work well in the decks that want them, and will bulk out playable numbers for the other decks. The upper end of the power scale needs to be cards that 'play nice with others' like Sedris and Shu Yun who have been mentioned earlier (i.e powerful cards which happen to draw your deck in one direction or another).
Cycling creatures that I probably want to keep to a single copy:
(Funny that, every Rare with Cycling, except Drifting Djinn, that card is pretty rubbish, and not at all where I want Blue to be) Undead Gladiator might be fine as a two-of actually, but that is a decision to make later.
Cycling cards that I like a lot and will happily run multiples of:
Mmmm.... sweet Jund colours. If being able to ping things for 1 damage is good, I could even go and include Jund Sojourners.
Hmm... What happens if I do go down the tri-colour cube route?
Jund and Grixis are in (given Sedris). Jeskai is in? (Shu Yun)
This means swapping Red and Black in the colour wheel, yielding:
WURBG, for Azorious, Izzet, Rakdos, Golgari and Selesnya. This works well, since Esper was such an outlier in Shards block, though having to stitch together some theme for Junk and Bant seems less than fun. Losing Dimir Transmute and Gruul's Deadshot Minotaur hurts. Who knows?
Distraction aside, there are still few Cycling cards I would begrudgingly run, but not be super happy about.
Sometimes 'at least it cycles' is all you can say.
At this stage, if I look at running doubles and triples of Cycling creatures that I like, the density is probably something 24/360 (or 1 per pack), almost certainly enough to build around, given you will likely be able to wheel a lot of these.
I am however fine to think of these as my 'commons' and just run multiple copies. I imagine that these will be on the lower end of the power scale for this environment, but will work well in the decks that want them, and will bulk out playable numbers for the other decks. The upper end of the power scale needs to be cards that 'play nice with others' like Sedris and Shu Yun who have been mentioned earlier (i.e powerful cards which happen to draw your deck in one direction or another).
Cycling creatures that I probably want to keep to a single copy:
(Funny that, every Rare with Cycling, except Drifting Djinn, that card is pretty rubbish, and not at all where I want Blue to be) Undead Gladiator might be fine as a two-of actually, but that is a decision to make later.
Cycling cards that I like a lot and will happily run multiples of:
Mmmm.... sweet Jund colours. If being able to ping things for 1 damage is good, I could even go and include Jund Sojourners.
Hmm... What happens if I do go down the tri-colour cube route?
Jund and Grixis are in (given Sedris). Jeskai is in? (Shu Yun)
This means swapping Red and Black in the colour wheel, yielding:
WURBG, for Azorious, Izzet, Rakdos, Golgari and Selesnya. This works well, since Esper was such an outlier in Shards block, though having to stitch together some theme for Junk and Bant seems less than fun. Losing Dimir Transmute and Gruul's Deadshot Minotaur hurts. Who knows?
Distraction aside, there are still few Cycling cards I would begrudgingly run, but not be super happy about.
Sometimes 'at least it cycles' is all you can say.
At this stage, if I look at running doubles and triples of Cycling creatures that I like, the density is probably something 24/360 (or 1 per pack), almost certainly enough to build around, given you will likely be able to wheel a lot of these.
You could probably use things like the charm cube for reference on 3-color themes. Bant Flicker maybe?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I actually kind of like macetail hystrodon and jungle weaver as reanimation targets.
Speaking of which, who needs lightning greaves when you can have a firebreathing pig.
Speaking of which, who needs lightning greaves when you can have a firebreathing pig.
I am curious about a few things:
What price tag for mana-fixing lands do you consider to be affordable?
What will this cube's card size be?
Can you offer a few examples of "acceptable", "unacceptable: too weak", "unacceptable: too strong", etc., for different classes of cards? (Land, removal, 1-drop creature)
Is it fair to assume that in addition to cycling that you will want to include cards that adjust their application to the phase of the game (possibly: morph, levelers, mana-sinks, kicker, etc.)?
What price tag for mana-fixing lands do you consider to be affordable?
What will this cube's card size be?
Can you offer a few examples of "acceptable", "unacceptable: too weak", "unacceptable: too strong", etc., for different classes of cards? (Land, removal, 1-drop creature)
Is it fair to assume that in addition to cycling that you will want to include cards that adjust their application to the phase of the game (possibly: morph, levelers, mana-sinks, kicker, etc.)?
Laz
Developer
Let's sate that curiosity!
As I said earlier, if I have to proxy up a man-base, that is fine. At present, I am thinking that Shocks look good, given the 'Land-cycling' cards, as it allows them to fix off-colour mana. At present, I have shocks in one of my cubes, but the other one is just Sharpied Guild-gates, and that works fine for me. It would be nice to work within the cost constraints, but I am willing to make an exception if cards are integral to how I want the cube to play.
I always work off of 360 cards as a starting point. I do however tend to play more 6-mans than 8-mans, so could target this at 270 cards instead, to mix it up a little.
"acceptable", "unacceptable: too weak", "unacceptable: too strong"? This is tricky. I think it is probably easier to give bounds of acceptable. From a removal perspective, Shriekmaw is probably a little above where I want to be (Bone Shredder is my substitute), but because removal is reactive in nature, not a strong proactive beat-this-card-or-lose threat, I don't really have an issue with a bit of power-discrepancy in removal. Just because your cube plays Shriekmaw, doesn't mean no one is going to want a card like Chill to the Bone (Not that I am saying I want to be running Chill to the Bone).
Threats are where power level is more pronounced. I don't think I want it running Monastery Swiftspear, but I do like Jeskai Sage. The thinking behind this is actually pretty specific and might be a little difficult to translate out more generally, so is probably a bad example.
The fact that Monastery Swiftspear has 2 toughness is a big deal, given I am looking at 1-toughness as a critical point. Jeskai Sage can dodge 1-damage removal with a single spell, which is a dynamic I think is interesting, and probably quite testing. I suspect a lot will take place at instant speed, since that is the speed of cycling, so playing around cards that kill 1 toughness creatures for value with a 1 toughness prowess creature strikes me as interaction heavy.
doesn't seem supremely relevant). Jhessian Zombies feels too weak to ever justify itself.I know that was roundabout, but the process helped me clarify things, so I hope that it does the same for you.
Also, Grillo, there is a whole cycle of 'Dragon <part name>' cards. The Blue one even cycles!
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think it might be beneficial to think about the principle mana base a little bit (before considering the ULD), as the mana can really define the cube experience. I see a few different lines (in no particular order):
1. cycling lands
2. bounce lands
3. fetch lands
4. shock lands
5. scry lands
6. tri lands
Everyone already knows how the shocks/fetches work, but one thing that is worth discussing, is how condensed do we expect the games to be? If there are a bunch of crushing midrange plays that really condenses aggro's window, then shocks/fetchs seem essential. However, if this is more of a turn 2 aggro format, than they don't really need to be there, and its safe to explore other options.
The bouncelands I think are important to consider, because cloud of faeries reads cycling, and is such a huge card. They also help minimize non-games.
The scry lands I really like, because of the way they help every deck smooth out their draws, and contribute to the general theme of minimizing "non-games."
If we are interested in exploring wedges/shards than tri-lands seem pretty essential.
I think the cycling lands are the most important to weigh before discarding, because they synergize so well with the general theme of the cube. If the games aren't too condensed the CIPT nature of them shouldn't be an issue, they help fill the yard, and they help prevent non-games. These cards work really well with both delve and threshold based strategies. We also have a pretty good idea of how an effective environment would look from VMA.
Another option, of course, is to consider a mix and match.
Any thoughts?
1. cycling lands
2. bounce lands
3. fetch lands
4. shock lands
5. scry lands
6. tri lands
Everyone already knows how the shocks/fetches work, but one thing that is worth discussing, is how condensed do we expect the games to be? If there are a bunch of crushing midrange plays that really condenses aggro's window, then shocks/fetchs seem essential. However, if this is more of a turn 2 aggro format, than they don't really need to be there, and its safe to explore other options.
The bouncelands I think are important to consider, because cloud of faeries reads cycling, and is such a huge card. They also help minimize non-games.
The scry lands I really like, because of the way they help every deck smooth out their draws, and contribute to the general theme of minimizing "non-games."
If we are interested in exploring wedges/shards than tri-lands seem pretty essential.
I think the cycling lands are the most important to weigh before discarding, because they synergize so well with the general theme of the cube. If the games aren't too condensed the CIPT nature of them shouldn't be an issue, they help fill the yard, and they help prevent non-games. These cards work really well with both delve and threshold based strategies. We also have a pretty good idea of how an effective environment would look from VMA.
Another option, of course, is to consider a mix and match.
Any thoughts?
Laz
Developer
Normally when I build a cube, my go-to is simply Dual/Shock/Fetch/Fetch, the mana is so smooth and really makes decks of all stripes better. You do however raise a lot of good points there Grillo, and I appreciate it as I have never really designed around how a mana base affects the flow of games, and interacts heavily with other cards (Other than maybe considering Knight of the Reliquary and Steppe Lynx).
Lands that have me interested are the Shocks (though I will likely not go with Fetches here), because they add a lot of value to cards like Chartooth Cougar and Twisted Abomination. Then again, I don't know what density of <land-type>cycling I need for this to be a genuine fixing option, and I suspect it will be higher than I am likely to achieve.
I like the concept of including the bounce lands, since that allows the inclusion of internal land-based synergies with them. Pick up a cycling land, then cycle it away for a real card. Pick up a Temple to get another scry, etc. It also makes bouncing lands a massive tempo play, which works somewhat with my vision of Blue. Rescind can be a real card.
I am still unsure how to handle the Cycling lands. As I posted earlier, I feel they are a little too weak to justify a pick, but a double pick (One pick gets you say Secluded Steppe and Drifting Meadow, or 2x Drifting Meadow, whatever) might be fine. I may also try just putting them in the basic land box (lash out and spend $10 on 10 copies of each cycling land or something), just to see what happens.
I don't think I am going to explore the Shards/Wedges thing. Instead I will just take my normal approach to multi-colour cards, just throwing in ones that I like that support certain themes, while being a little careful not to have too many.
Aside: I can tell I am tired and have been coding all day... I just pressed ctrl+space to try to auto complete card names.
Lands that have me interested are the Shocks (though I will likely not go with Fetches here), because they add a lot of value to cards like Chartooth Cougar and Twisted Abomination. Then again, I don't know what density of <land-type>cycling I need for this to be a genuine fixing option, and I suspect it will be higher than I am likely to achieve.
I like the concept of including the bounce lands, since that allows the inclusion of internal land-based synergies with them. Pick up a cycling land, then cycle it away for a real card. Pick up a Temple to get another scry, etc. It also makes bouncing lands a massive tempo play, which works somewhat with my vision of Blue. Rescind can be a real card.
I am still unsure how to handle the Cycling lands. As I posted earlier, I feel they are a little too weak to justify a pick, but a double pick (One pick gets you say Secluded Steppe and Drifting Meadow, or 2x Drifting Meadow, whatever) might be fine. I may also try just putting them in the basic land box (lash out and spend $10 on 10 copies of each cycling land or something), just to see what happens.
I don't think I am going to explore the Shards/Wedges thing. Instead I will just take my normal approach to multi-colour cards, just throwing in ones that I like that support certain themes, while being a little careful not to have too many.
Aside: I can tell I am tired and have been coding all day... I just pressed ctrl+space to try to auto complete card names.
Laz
Developer
Quick note to self:
Other methods of cantripping?
Blue: Raw draw, needs no help
Green: Return cards from yard to hand
Black: Returns creatures from yard to hand
Red: Cycle other cards (Tormenting Voice). Are there other cards with this effect, or only looting? Desperate Ravings?
White: ??? Returning artifacts and enchants? Go down the cantripping artifact plan with Stars/Spheres?
Other methods of cantripping?
Blue: Raw draw, needs no help
Green: Return cards from yard to hand
Black: Returns creatures from yard to hand
Red: Cycle other cards (Tormenting Voice). Are there other cards with this effect, or only looting? Desperate Ravings?
White: ??? Returning artifacts and enchants? Go down the cantripping artifact plan with Stars/Spheres?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
White:
It draws a card! Sort of...
It draws a card! Sort of...
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I'm also not that excited about the idea of running both shocks and fetches. Running just the shocks, however, could lead to some interesting decisions with land sequencing and mana base design, in conjunction with the bouncelands.
The universe where cycling lands are worth a pick, i.m.o., is probably one where they act as a pillar of the format. The easiest example (off the top of my head) is where they fuel a family of threshold based decks. While there are a lot of cycling cards, there are also a lot of terrible cycling cards, and running the lands lets you be more selective about card quality elsewhere.
I understand the frustration though, what would be ideal would be some sort of CIPT dual land with cycling. To run cycling lands in the main there is a price in fixing to be paid, which might not be worth it. While the format likely won't be so condensed that you need to put the entire fixing onarus on your lands, running 5-10 mono lands because they read cycling might be uncomfortable.
When you get to the point where you start putting this on cubetutor, we could do some sample drafts with and without cycling lands, and that might be the safest way to get a gauge on where they would fall in the draft environment.
The universe where cycling lands are worth a pick, i.m.o., is probably one where they act as a pillar of the format. The easiest example (off the top of my head) is where they fuel a family of threshold based decks. While there are a lot of cycling cards, there are also a lot of terrible cycling cards, and running the lands lets you be more selective about card quality elsewhere.
I understand the frustration though, what would be ideal would be some sort of CIPT dual land with cycling. To run cycling lands in the main there is a price in fixing to be paid, which might not be worth it. While the format likely won't be so condensed that you need to put the entire fixing onarus on your lands, running 5-10 mono lands because they read cycling might be uncomfortable.
When you get to the point where you start putting this on cubetutor, we could do some sample drafts with and without cycling lands, and that might be the safest way to get a gauge on where they would fall in the draft environment.
Cipt dual lands with cycling would be amazing and something I could see them doing.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
This could also finally be a home for...
First thing that popped into my head: Oblation
Stuff used with prowess seems interesting to me. White has options for that:
Shelter, Unquestioned Authority, Abeyance, Aura Blast, Dismantling Blow, Defiant Strike, Pressure Point
+1 niveous wisps as a better pressure point. Maybe there is a way to add a prowess/heroic theme to white? About the right power level?
Laz
Developer
I have started writing this response a pretty large number of times now. I am not sure what happens, but I seem to get dragged away by one thing or another.
Firstly, thanks to all that have posted. I probably would never have thought that all of the random 'get some mana at awkward times during the turn' would work well by enabling free cycling.
There is certainly some virtue to the idea of pushing Heroic/Prowess in white. I like the concept of having white and blue be beatdown colours, just to turn things on their head a little. I think I am almost at a point where I know roughly what I want the primary role of each colour to be:
Blue: Prowess Aggro/Tempo
White: Heroic Aggro
Black: Grindy value-generation
Green: Stall out until they can cast these big Cycling monsters
Red: I don't know yet, but I know it plays Young Pyromancers. Possibly Prowess sub-theme as well.
Obviously there will be subthemes here, and re-reading the analysis of Innistrad that was posted in the CBS thread was valuable in terms of thinking about colour pairs and card cross-over between them.
Extending the thinking about how exactly Red can draw cards, there was a whole class of cards that do exactly what I mentioned, essentially cycling multiple cards in your hand...
I think this effect is probably a little extreme, but there are smaller versions of it:
Fueling the yard, drawing cards, all in a very Red way? I could be convinced.
Firstly, thanks to all that have posted. I probably would never have thought that all of the random 'get some mana at awkward times during the turn' would work well by enabling free cycling.
There is certainly some virtue to the idea of pushing Heroic/Prowess in white. I like the concept of having white and blue be beatdown colours, just to turn things on their head a little. I think I am almost at a point where I know roughly what I want the primary role of each colour to be:
Blue: Prowess Aggro/Tempo
White: Heroic Aggro
Black: Grindy value-generation
Green: Stall out until they can cast these big Cycling monsters
Red: I don't know yet, but I know it plays Young Pyromancers. Possibly Prowess sub-theme as well.
Obviously there will be subthemes here, and re-reading the analysis of Innistrad that was posted in the CBS thread was valuable in terms of thinking about colour pairs and card cross-over between them.
Extending the thinking about how exactly Red can draw cards, there was a whole class of cards that do exactly what I mentioned, essentially cycling multiple cards in your hand...
I think this effect is probably a little extreme, but there are smaller versions of it:
Fueling the yard, drawing cards, all in a very Red way? I could be convinced.
Laz
Developer
Lets explore the White Heroic/Prowess idea, focussing in this post upon white cards which essentially 'draw a card'. Since we currently have this deck in standard, you don't have too look too far for inspiration.
This card does require some density of Auras, but not too many. I would be happy to play this in a deck with only two or three targets, unlike say Auramancer (That art though). The possibility of GW enchantress was brought up a couple of posts back, and this could be an excellent cross-over. (Plus, we might be able to justify Auramancer with cycling enchantments)
Potential targets for this are cards like Unquestioned Authority, or the draw-a-card-almost-pacifism. When we go outside of White, there are lots of options as well.
Shelter and Niveous Wisps play into the tempo route as well. At the back of my head has been the fact that there will likely be a pretty reasonable density of early blockers (Wall of Omens, Wall of Blossoms, Wall of Mulch... (I sense an archetype), as well as cards like Borderland Ranger) gumming up the ground, so the ability to ignore them via tapping, bouncing, etc seems important for these beatdown decks.
In addition, these walls add a lot of value to Inside Out as more than just a combat trick (not running Twisted Image, I want Red to have access to this).
This card does require some density of Auras, but not too many. I would be happy to play this in a deck with only two or three targets, unlike say Auramancer (That art though). The possibility of GW enchantress was brought up a couple of posts back, and this could be an excellent cross-over. (Plus, we might be able to justify Auramancer with cycling enchantments)
Potential targets for this are cards like Unquestioned Authority, or the draw-a-card-almost-pacifism. When we go outside of White, there are lots of options as well.
Abundant Growth
Dragon Breath
Dragon Wings
Sigil of the Nayan Gods
Plus, you know, all of the non 'draw a card' ones...
Dragon Breath
Dragon Wings
Sigil of the Nayan Gods
Plus, you know, all of the non 'draw a card' ones...
Shelter and Niveous Wisps play into the tempo route as well. At the back of my head has been the fact that there will likely be a pretty reasonable density of early blockers (Wall of Omens, Wall of Blossoms, Wall of Mulch... (I sense an archetype), as well as cards like Borderland Ranger) gumming up the ground, so the ability to ignore them via tapping, bouncing, etc seems important for these beatdown decks.
In addition, these walls add a lot of value to Inside Out as more than just a combat trick (not running Twisted Image, I want Red to have access to this).
Heliod's Pilgrim plays really really well with cards like temporal isolation, for what it's worth. It is both a pick for the proactive and the reactive player.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Heliod's Pilgrim looks pretty sick. One cross-over aura to keep in mind is moldervine cloak.
There are a lot of really great aura's to grab in each color that can support multiple fun archetypes.
However, Shattered perception and dangerous wager seem a bit narrow. Red has a lot of good draw spells, and I don't think you need to go the extreme of running perception and wager.
That article was ok, but it kind of beat-around-the-bush that what made innistrad great was that it had several different strategic axes, and card evaulation changed dramatically depending on which axes you were going down. The reason the environment had those several different strategic axes was because it impossed some kind of limitation (card advantage, removal, tribal, mana fixing), forcing the drafter to pick an axis, creating a feeling of definition to the cube. The most broad being graveyard v. non-graveyard. The off-color flashback spells also did a lot to define color combinations, and the nudge rares also help encourage people down certain strategic lines.
In the penny pincher format, bouncelands provide much of the definition, creating a split in fixing that changes card value amongst a collection of broadly applicable pieces (e.g. cloud of faeries as a ramp tool vs. a tempo tool in an aggro deck). There is also removal definition in the form of pacifism effects that are good against graveyard interactions but poor against protection spells, tap effects that are poor against untap effects, and damage based removal which is poor against giant growth effects. The gold section provides a nudge to the drafter to look down certain strategic lines in various color combinations, much like innistrad's rares and off-color flashback spells.
This is a different approach than providing excellent fixing/removal/sources of card advantage, and than getting your cube's definition by breaking singleton on broadly applicable build arounds.
There are a lot of really great aura's to grab in each color that can support multiple fun archetypes.
However, Shattered perception and dangerous wager seem a bit narrow. Red has a lot of good draw spells, and I don't think you need to go the extreme of running perception and wager.
That article was ok, but it kind of beat-around-the-bush that what made innistrad great was that it had several different strategic axes, and card evaulation changed dramatically depending on which axes you were going down. The reason the environment had those several different strategic axes was because it impossed some kind of limitation (card advantage, removal, tribal, mana fixing), forcing the drafter to pick an axis, creating a feeling of definition to the cube. The most broad being graveyard v. non-graveyard. The off-color flashback spells also did a lot to define color combinations, and the nudge rares also help encourage people down certain strategic lines.
In the penny pincher format, bouncelands provide much of the definition, creating a split in fixing that changes card value amongst a collection of broadly applicable pieces (e.g. cloud of faeries as a ramp tool vs. a tempo tool in an aggro deck). There is also removal definition in the form of pacifism effects that are good against graveyard interactions but poor against protection spells, tap effects that are poor against untap effects, and damage based removal which is poor against giant growth effects. The gold section provides a nudge to the drafter to look down certain strategic lines in various color combinations, much like innistrad's rares and off-color flashback spells.
This is a different approach than providing excellent fixing/removal/sources of card advantage, and than getting your cube's definition by breaking singleton on broadly applicable build arounds.
Laz
Developer
Lets come back and examine this. Not so much from a 3-colour perspective, but from that of colour pairs and theme overlap.
Blue/White has a focus upon Prowess/Heroic. This bleeds perfectly into an enchantment focus on the Green/White (forming Bant) side of things, as enchantments are great for both of Heroic and Prowess triggers. Heliod's Pilgrim is desirable in both a Heroic focussed deck, and an Enchantress focussed one. Similarly, Prowess/Heroic has a really strong overlap with a spells-matter (Guttersnipe, Young Pyromancer) focus on the Jeskai side. This seems like a pretty organic overlap.
Bleeding the colours wider is probably a little more forced. I could bleed Enchantress into Black (Green/White into Junk) through careful seeding of specific cards, such as using Animate Dead over some of the black reanimation spells I listed earlier (such as Stitch Together, though I still think that one is awesome). As a bonus, Animate Dead can be fetched with Heliod's Pilgrim, that card just keeps getting better! Dead Weight could be included for similar, though possibly more forced reasons. Unfortunately Black also pairs with Blue/Red, so by swapping what would be instants and sorceries out for enchantments, I diminish the overlap with the spells matters theme, not to mention that Black/Green and Black/Red need their own identities.
Black/Green in my head was defined by Nemesis of Mortals and Ghoultree, cards that want you to fill your yard with creatures to build a monster. Threshold also probably has a role here. My initial thought was that this theme is harder to convey 'as-fan', though perhaps that isn't strictly true. The reward cards make it obvious, but then again, what density of spells-matter cards are we talking? How many Enchantresses? The cards which support these themes are all pretty generic; cycling creatures, enchantments and cheap spells; cards that people are going to play anyway.
This sadly leaves Black/Red without a core idea, or at least, without a good idea that has yet emerged for me.
This concept of colour pairs, with bleed into Shards/Wedges has increased in appeal for me, though I know it is much more difficult to actually assemble the coherent list along these lines than it is to spell out the core ideas, so the real challenge is still to come. I now feel I have a bit more direction though.
Also, it is decided. This is going to be a 264 card cube. That number seems plucked from mid-air, but actually represents a 6-man draft, with four packs of eleven cards per drafter (the hope is that it will fit neatly inside just one box, where my current 360 card cubes (+ lands, tokens, and in Scuttlemutt's case negative value dice) take two.
I have been pondering this from a mechanical standpoint based on how I imagine cycling (on mostly lower-powered cards) to affect games. Some wonky ideas:
Black-blue has an "additional cost of exiling-things-from-your-graveyard" theme (rooted in ISD Skaabs, but some ONS and OD block stuff). Haunting Misery was the killcon in the O.G. Fluctuator combo deck IIRC.
Green-white has the advocate cycle from Judgment. The opponent cycles; you say thank you and give them back do-nothing mana-sinks to get spell-like effects for the low, low cost of "tap"!
BUG's delve can combine with funky "graveyard order matters" cards or cycling can just power things like Ashen Ghoul. Whoa, there are some really weird "top of graveyard" cards, but only Phyrexian Furnace cares about bottoms.
Hellbent is a neat mechanic to consider with cycling looking to keep hands stocked to the brim; it might make red-black the best place for your aggro focus (including some of the aggro-stat, "top of graveyard" cards). Related: big-number discard (think Fugue-like proportions is probably okay against cycling.
Spellshapers (and other spells that want you to discard cards for an effect) act in a similar way to cycling, turning unwanted cards into wanted effects.
There might be an argument for including some number of cards that want you to specifically discard land cards (like retrace spells ... that could aid hellbent ..., Land's Edge or Trade Routes) so that Life from the Loam, Cartographer and Tilling Treefolk can get value beyond cycling lands (which I would definitely include).
Mana-fix through shock duals, Mirage fetches, maybe Grand Coliseum, cycling lands for splashes (...maybe Vivids) and plenty of hybrid/colorless/single-color-mana-symbol cards to ensure decks are not strained too much to cast 2-3 colors of spells.
Lastly, if your playgroup can stomach it, I would design the format so that creatures/spells with cycling are competitive when cast as their "secondary" mode (the non-cycling, printed text). Things will probably feel *very* unconventional in drafting/deck-building/play (when compared to the typical Limited-play experience), but you and your group will be able to enjoy many cards that only see play with "Scalding Tarn" written on them in permanent marker.
Black-blue has an "additional cost of exiling-things-from-your-graveyard" theme (rooted in ISD Skaabs, but some ONS and OD block stuff). Haunting Misery was the killcon in the O.G. Fluctuator combo deck IIRC.
Green-white has the advocate cycle from Judgment. The opponent cycles; you say thank you and give them back do-nothing mana-sinks to get spell-like effects for the low, low cost of "tap"!
BUG's delve can combine with funky "graveyard order matters" cards or cycling can just power things like Ashen Ghoul. Whoa, there are some really weird "top of graveyard" cards, but only Phyrexian Furnace cares about bottoms.
Hellbent is a neat mechanic to consider with cycling looking to keep hands stocked to the brim; it might make red-black the best place for your aggro focus (including some of the aggro-stat, "top of graveyard" cards). Related: big-number discard (think Fugue-like proportions is probably okay against cycling.
Spellshapers (and other spells that want you to discard cards for an effect) act in a similar way to cycling, turning unwanted cards into wanted effects.
There might be an argument for including some number of cards that want you to specifically discard land cards (like retrace spells ... that could aid hellbent ..., Land's Edge or Trade Routes) so that Life from the Loam, Cartographer and Tilling Treefolk can get value beyond cycling lands (which I would definitely include).
Mana-fix through shock duals, Mirage fetches, maybe Grand Coliseum, cycling lands for splashes (...maybe Vivids) and plenty of hybrid/colorless/single-color-mana-symbol cards to ensure decks are not strained too much to cast 2-3 colors of spells.
Lastly, if your playgroup can stomach it, I would design the format so that creatures/spells with cycling are competitive when cast as their "secondary" mode (the non-cycling, printed text). Things will probably feel *very* unconventional in drafting/deck-building/play (when compared to the typical Limited-play experience), but you and your group will be able to enjoy many cards that only see play with "Scalding Tarn" written on them in permanent marker.
Laz
Developer
Things will probably feel *very* unconventional in drafting/deck-building/play (when compared to the typical Limited-play experience), but you and your group will be able to enjoy many cards that only see play with "Scalding Tarn" written on them in permanent marker.
Oh, don't get me wrong, one of the things that has been exciting me the most about building this cube has been the chance to use heaps of old cards with crazy art. Unfortunately the non Graveborn Deck Series Animate Dead is just too damn confusing to use. Enchant Dead Creature? Can that be fetched with Heliod's Pilgrim?
I think you have made a lot of good points, and you will probably see them echoed in future posts once I have had time to digest them properly.
Laz
Developer
(Disclaimer: I typed and deleted hundreds of words trying to clarify where I was at with my thinking about colours and incentives and support cards and the like before thinking of this...)
Red and Black. The theme has been hinted at here at least twice, was featured in Vintage Masters, from where I was drawing a lot of inspiration, and has been hiding at the back of my mind for use in low power environments if I could make it fit.
Madness!
(Big bonus if you can cast the spell in your cleanup step)
Reckless Wurm when simply cast fits the power level of most of the cycling creatures, and has the big bonus of being a cheap 4/4 trampler. Black/Red have a really solid array of Madness cards, and the theme contributes to the surrounding colours pretty well. Madness means more 'spells cast' triggers for Izzet, and Red featuring looting spells helps the fuel the graveyard theme in Golgari.
The only downside is that I might have to delve into silver-bordered... This card is now on-theme in far too many ways...
Red and Black. The theme has been hinted at here at least twice, was featured in Vintage Masters, from where I was drawing a lot of inspiration, and has been hiding at the back of my mind for use in low power environments if I could make it fit.
Madness!
(Big bonus if you can cast the spell in your cleanup step)
Reckless Wurm when simply cast fits the power level of most of the cycling creatures, and has the big bonus of being a cheap 4/4 trampler. Black/Red have a really solid array of Madness cards, and the theme contributes to the surrounding colours pretty well. Madness means more 'spells cast' triggers for Izzet, and Red featuring looting spells helps the fuel the graveyard theme in Golgari.
The only downside is that I might have to delve into silver-bordered... This card is now on-theme in far too many ways...