Thinking of deep cuts to 540 list

[Hathaway]

I was just going over my 540 card cube and I wanted a few extra opinions.

Basically, I built this cube as a 450 card peasant list to play with friends for my birthday. Since then, I have been given a few binders full of cards and a small stack of fetches and shock duals and whatever the cycle that includes Glacial Fortress is called. As a result, the cube has gotten bigger, and until recently, I would have added better.

I posted a question about adding Birthing Pod to the list, and the replies I received got me to start looking at why I'm running certain cards. I came to this weird realization that a lot of cards are in the list because "I need more cards like X to fill out 540." So I started asking why I want 540 cards. I have some vague answer about being able to have 12 people draft or play sealed with six. That sounds nice, but I have not been able to get more than 8 people to draft, nor do I want that many people in my house at once. As for sealed, I've ran a few 2 player games, but I don't honestly foresee me running large sealed games.

So.

I sat down with my list and went through all the cards and asked myself "would I be okay if this card was cut?" When I finished, I saw that I had axed 144 cards on the first pass. That would take the cube from 540 all the way down to 396.

Like I said, I don't actually see running 9+ player drafts, and some of the "padding" was due to my inclusion of Booster Tutor in the original list. I have since cut the Cogwork Librarian as well, they just confused or annoyed my drafters.

Would you look over my new list and give me some feedback on the new look versus the 540 list? I am including links to both cubes on Cube Tutor, as I don't think anyone wants to read a list of 144 mediocre cards that I cut. (If you do, they are in the blog for the 34812 cube.) Well, 142 and two broken cards. Looking at you, Isochron Scepter and True-Name Nemesis.

Original 540 list: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/28489
Newly trimmed 396: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/34812

Thoughts? Opinions? Petty slander?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I personally like 450, as 8-man drafts can get a bit repetitive at 360, but I support cutting down to anything below 451

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Gave it a quick look.

I would keep an eye on some of the generically good creatures




Some weak cards to upgrade:



And I like to stay away from boring aggro 1 drops





There are also some potential trap cards




As much as I love some of the above cards, they are format sensitive, and you just have to be aware of that.

Also, a few narrow SB cards

 

[Hathaway]

One thing I don't have a handle on is how many "destroy target artifact" and "destroy target enchantment" effects to run. I'm sure it's a personal bias, but I want some form of Disenchant available to me. What's the consensus for a good amount in cube? Also, what needs to find a way into the cube besides Champion of the Parish and maybe Delver of Secrets?

 

[shamizy]

I like my current configuration at 405. It's the right number that allows for variety in my drafts while also making sure that most of my existing themes are well supported and available from draft to draft. 450 is a little unwieldy for me, too many archetype defining cards would be missing when we conducted our drafts.

What I did when I first constructed my Cube was consult lists on this site to get ideas, and then writing down ideas I had for given color pairings. What did I want G/B to do? B/W? How about Bant or Abzan colors? Laying out a skeleton of themes you want to pursue is a good way of figuring out a compact list instead of just throwing in a bunch of stuff that seems cool. Like, drafting a deck of goodstuff is almost never as rewarding as finding the synergies that push okay cards into being amazing together.

A good question to ask is WHY is this particular card in here? What does it accomplish? Which decks want to use it? Is there a better option? It's a lot of trial and error, but once you get the hang of it, management of the cube itself becomes a LOT simpler.

 

[shamizy]

One thing I don't have a handle on is how many "destroy target artifact" and "destroy target enchantment" effects to run. I'm sure it's a personal bias, but I want some form of Disenchant available to me. What's the consensus for a good amount in cube? Also, what needs to find a way into the cube besides Champion of the Parish and maybe Delver of Secrets?

Here's the issue with those kind of effects; they're very narrow and hardly ever picked until there's only draft chaff left. The idea of giving drafters sideboard options is nice, but no one is ever excited to draft explicitly narrow hate. You want cards that are functional and capable most of the time, not just in a very particular circumstance. I personally don't run very many, I've looked to cut most of these effects out entirely if the card was too narrow.

Like, I love a card like Kolaghan's Command because of the options it allows for you. Dromoka's Command is another one that allows for enchantment hate while being live every other time as well. Banishing Light and Oblivion Ring are usually catch-alls. Basically, versatility is what you're looking for when it comes to those sort of effects.

 

[shamizy]

If you're working on a budget then some of these probably aren't feasible right now, but modal spells are fantastic in cube. Looking over my own list, I'm currently running all of these:



Charms are okay, but getting two effects is so much better, especially when you can mix and match to get the most out of them in whatever situation you're in. I love cards like these that evolve depending upon a given boardstate, leads to the most interesting games imo.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

And I like to stay away from boring aggro 1 drops

I'll politely disagree to this statement. Boring is in the eye of the beholder in this case, and some people are really attracted to simply curving out starting turn 1 and bashing their opponent's head in with weenies. I do think some of your choices (like Elite Vanguard and Carnophage) have been outclassed by the slew of playable 1-drops in recent sets. Rackdos Cackler and Dryad Militant are still good for their flexibility, Jackal Pup will always remain playable, even though Firedrinker Satyr is strictly better, and Diregraf Ghoul is decent enough, especially with zombie synergie (Gravecrawler mainly in most cubes).

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think I would rather run x2 firedrinker satyr, and a second gravecrawler or blood soaked champion over ghoul or carnophage. Might as well run more broadly applicable cards for a curve out strategy in a slimmed list imo. Thankfully savannah lions seems like less and less of a necessity with every new set, and I can't wait until rakdos cackler is a thing of the past

 

[Chris Taylor]

I think I would rather run x2 firedrinker satyr, and a second gravecrawler or blood soaked champion over ghoul or carnophage. Might as well run more broadly applicable cards for a curve out strategy in a slimmed list imo. Thankfully savannah lions seems like less and less of a necessity with every new set, and I can't wait until rakdos cackler is a thing of the past

Well like thats just your opinion man

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Oooo I forgot about the sweet proliferate interactions. I will make an exception for that.

Also, we seriously need to start posting the actually clip from the big lebowski if we are going to use that quote.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

One thing I don't have a handle on is how many "destroy target artifact" and "destroy target enchantment" effects to run. I'm sure it's a personal bias, but I want some form of Disenchant available to me. What's the consensus for a good amount in cube?

One thing about cube is that each environment is unique and their isn't really a consensus on anything. When deciding how much non-creature removal to run, you've got to decide a couple of things:

1) How is the game impacted if enchantments and artifacts never get removed?
2) How are games impacted if enchantments and artifacts are easily removed (or removed frequently with 2-1s?
3) What decks should have access to removal for each card type?

The two extreme approaches are

1) Run only low impact artifact and enchantments that aren't oppressive if they stay in play or that can be indirectly removed (auras). Include a sparse amount of enchantment and artifact removal that is either incidental or targeted at certain decks. The idea here is that artifacts and enchantments are effects that stay on the table and accumulate a progressively complex boardstate, rather then being hosers or removal checks.
2) Run high impact artifacts and enchantments whose intent are to be gamewinning effects that demand removal or a trump. Include lots of direct removal that is varied enough so every deck has some.

Of course you can always shook somewhere in the middle. I'm much closer to 1, but if you want to include stuff like Jitte, Moat, Sulfuric Vortex and such you need to lean towards 2.

 

[Diakonov]

One thing I don't have a handle on is how many "destroy target artifact" and "destroy target enchantment" effects to run. I'm sure it's a personal bias, but I want some form of Disenchant available to me. What's the consensus for a good amount in cube? Also, what needs to find a way into the cube besides Champion of the Parish and maybe Delver of Secrets?

In my experience, this is an extremely difficult thing to balance perfectly. I mostly agree with what others have said about having a lot of universal removal spells in your cube to keep things in check.

Personally, I love Disenchant, and it will always be in my cube. People routinely underrate that card. It's really not so narrow. Also, it doesn't bother me to see it at the bottom of a pack as a sideboard card. The sort of cards that tend to feel oppressive are often artifacts and enchantments since they are more difficult to interact with, so it's always good to make sure players at least could have access to dealing with them.

Stuff like Shattering Blow, on the other hand, I wouldn't bother with. Those really are too narrow, IMO.

Edit: looking at your artifact count, you probably don't need Manic Vandal.

 

[Chris Taylor]

There's plenty of cards (In cube or otherwise) that demand an answer, but the difference between problem Artifacts/Enchantments and problem Planeswalkers/Creatures is that every color can answer a walker (by attacking it) or a creature (since even green has creature removal).

Having cards in your cube that demand disenchant puts a huge strain on black, for example who really can't help it.
Red can shatter, which still comes up short sometimes, and while white and green are safe, sometimes blue gets shat on as well, since having to construct a game plan where you can bounce and then counter the offending permanent isn't always doable without dying to the rest of your opponent's game plan. And that little migigame can be either frustrating or interesting depending on it's frequency and how hard it is.

I'd recommend looking at all the Artifacts/Enchantments/Lands (hey look another card type not every color can deal with) and see if there are any that you can't realistically win if your opponent keeps in play. If the only way to deal with those cards is to kill them or hope your opponent doesn't draw them, you might want to remove them.
You'll find some surprising ones:

Not exactly what comes to mind when you think of the kind of card people add manic vandal to deal with, right?
But hey, what do you do against this? Hope your opponent just runs out of creatures?

 

[Hathaway]

Thanks for all the feedback.

One of the more frustrating amusing design constraints for me right now is budget. Not that I don't have the money, I just prefer to wait and build slowly. All the shock lands and fetches and all of the rares in the current cube were given to me by my old Magic friends, so I'm kind of working with what I have. That being said, I'm also planning on dropping some cash next week on things like:

Champion of the Parish
Student of Warfare
Unexpectedly Absent
Armageddon
Bloodsoaked Champion
Geralf's Messenger
Gravecrawler
Profane Command
Red Sun's Zenith
Sulfuric Vortex
Warden of the First Tree
Nest Invader

...and so on.

The lands will come slowly, and I've got a stack of Overgrown Tombs and Temple Gardens that I'm taking to a local shop tonight to try to turn into other lands I need.

As to the destroy artifacts and enchantments question, I don't want to put things in the cube that people just die to if they can't immediately deal with it. I didn't realize that True-Name Nemesis was one of those cards because I was usually playing him. Strange how that works. I recently cut Sol Ring for the same reason. I think what I want to do moving forward is have most of the effects ties to creatures. I *really* want players to use the attack step.

 

[shamizy]

Of your listed additions, I'm on board with all of them aside from Armageddon. It's been such a feel bad card for me whenever I've seen it cast (or casted it) and it's kind of hard to play around unless you're blue with counterspells. Like, all you need to do is drop a big guy or a walker at parity, geddon the board, and the rest of game becomes trivial at that point. It seems like a cool effect for sure, but it requires a certain environment to get the most out of it. I prefer Cataclysm if you're looking for one of those sort of wrath but not just creature wrath effects.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I mean, assuming I can't convince you to proxy (Which you should do, cube is expensive and anyone who complains about your proxies should make their own damn multi-thousand dollar piece of paper then bring it to public spaces and draft it with strangers. I had a friend quit cubing when his pack foil Jace TMS got stolen, fuck people who say this) Here's what I'd recommend:

-If you don't have all the fetches/duals/shocks etc you need, take guildgates and sharpie out the "enters the battlefield tapped" line. Just as good, nobody cares.
-That list looks awesome, but you don't need armageddon. Its a decent white disruption spell, but it's nothing special, and probably not worth the 4$ when everything else is so cheap. Warden of the First Tree is also pretty replaceable if you don't care much. There's a million 50c rares that are fine for limited, but don't see play anymore which will give you way more bang for your buck than either of those two (Hey, Student of Warfare is one of those cards! )
-Double up on more cards to tighten in the power variance: Carnophage can become gravecrawler #2, or hell Diregraf ghoul #2. Vexing Devil and Jackel Pup can become more Cacklers, or stromkirk nobles, or whatever aggressive 1 drop you have lying around. Cruel Edict can become another ultimate price, or doom blade or whatever.
-Check the ammount of removal you have. Not just actual killspells, but anything that stops a creature or creates a defensive board state. You need these cards to play control, but there's likely some hidden removal spells which make your counted total seem lower (Eg: Gideon's Lawkeeper doesn't really do much attacking)
-If you really want people to be using their combat step, add more creatures. I'm noticing most of your colors are split 50/50, other than blue/green. My cube is an extreme example, but if every color is 60/40, people are probably going to attack at some point, that's what creatures are for anyhow

Please cut fireblast though. All that card does it cheat people out of playing magic

 

[shamizy]

A favorite mechanic of mine (and many here) is Prowess specifically because it has helped to make combat more interesting. Turning any given instant card or non-creature spell on your turn into a +1/+1 boost is fantastic. And most of the cards are cheap as well. It encourages spellslinger (which you seem to want to do with two Young Pyromancer), gives an interesting bleeder archetype in UWR, and allows you to use your instants in ways that you might not have considered. The short list of Prowess cards I run are:



Just think of a board with 2 of any of these along with two instants in hand, a Defiant Strike and a Brainstorm. If you swing during combat with mana up, often times your opponent will be somewhat worried because the blowout potential is so high. I mean, could you imagine having 3 mana up, swinging with Seeker and Thief, opponent blocks Thief (b/c scared of that card draw), and you just go Brainstorm into Strike on the Thief? All of sudden you've pretty much cycled two cards in hand, probably killed off their blocker, gained 4 life, AND you've still got your creatures. And this isn't even a nut draw or anything. Now throw in things like untapped fetches to filter chaff off the brainstorm or hell even a Jeskai Ascendancy (which is a FANTASTIC card) and you've got something really spicy there.

Supporting UWR Prowess isn't very difficult (shouldn't be now with it being evergreen either), and you're mostly just playing the same non-creature spells you wanted to anyway. Turning any instant in your hand into a combat trick is just so sweet.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Some thoughts:
Of your cut cards...
- Lightning Mauler is a fantastic red 2-drop, and I really recommend it. It helps aggro and it can do some zany work later in the game launching a fatty at your opponent's face during a board stall. I'd run it over Ember Hauler in a heartbeat.
- Aether Adept is a really nice card for blue; I also recommend it pretty highly, probably over Repeal.

Of your considered additions...
- I really love Student of Warfare, but most of the time, it's just a bad mana investment. I've killed these things with level up on the stack about a billion times. Don't waste your money on it - it dies a lot more often in a lower-powered environ, where it is actually worth a removal spell.

Of your trimmed list...
- I don't like white tokens, but if you're going to run them, I'd suggest considering more anthem effects. Consul's Lieutenant and Soltari Champion do fine work in this regard, and are pretty playable without tokens.
- Errant Ephemeron doesn't seem playable in your environment; it's too slow or too costly, in my opinion, and I can't imagine putting it into a deck unless I was desperate for a creature.
- Fathom Seer: I really don't fathom this seeing any play; I'd suggest dropping it, perhaps for Augur of Bolas.
- Willbender: Morph tricks are best with lots of morphs. If you want it to have a buddy to help hide it that isn't the above card, Stratus Dancer is pretty okay. Otherwise, cut them both, perhaps.
- I prefer Silent Departure over Vapor Snag; the flashback really helps, and the sorcery speed helps make it feel a bit more fair. Generally, I don't care about the 1 extra damage in blue unless my deck is crazy aggressive, and even then, I feel that Silent Departure does more work.
- I don't care for Victimize unless I can put really, really good fatties in my yard to fish out. It doesn't reanimate for value as easily as, say, Unburial Rites can. I tried it for a while, and we draft a lot over here (pretty much daily) - it was never played, even in a reanimator deck with good targets. YMMV.
- I love Wolfir Silverheart, even if he's unpopular over here. It's good to give green some real meaty threats, and as your list stands, it's one of the only ramp targets that would actually pull me into green. That said, he certainly does demand removal; I'm okay with that, but if you aren't, go ahead and trim him.
- I don't care for Overrun, but it's probably okay in your cube since the environment is a bit lower-powered. Keep an eye on it.
- Shrine of Burning Rage is a real lazy clock; I like it in high-powered cubes okay, but outside of that, it just feels a bit whatever.
- Obzedat, Ghost Council has always been way too slow to see play over here. Maybe it can work in your environ? But keep an eye on it.

Other considerations:
- Your cube really looks like it could use more counterspells. As it stands, you have less than a dozen, some of which ( Dismiss, Force Spike, Exclude) hardly seem playable in my experience. I'd really suggest you consider running a few more unless your players get extremely upset playing against counterspells, which I know is sometimes a concern. Doubling up on counters in the 2-drop spot has worked out great for me, and if you want some lower-powered counters to balance the increased number of them, I've really liked Prohibit in my super-lean environment, since it can counter a bunch of stuff without wrecking someone's day who's trying to get off one of the few expensive cards. I'd recommend powering up some of the worst ones, at least, but that's just my own taste.

It looks like you've done pretty well for a first go-round! Sorry I couldn't be more helpful - you've done most of the heavy lifting already yourself, it seems!

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Counters really depend on environment structure: speed, average cc, whether you can leave mana up. 4cc counters i find are generally unplayable because ive never really supported draw go control and no one can just leave 4 mana up. 3cc counters are always a little awkward for me, but i really want exclude to be good. I love force spike and mana tithe, they are some of my favorite picks for a tempo list. Force spike is one of the few counters i get excited to play with.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

- Fathom Seer: I really don't fathom this seeing any play; I'd suggest dropping it, perhaps for Augur of Bolas.

I'm on to you LSV!

 

[Hathaway]

- I love Wolfir Silverheart, even if he's unpopular over here. It's good to give green some real meaty threats, and as your list stands, it's one of the only ramp targets that would actually pull me into green. That said, he certainly does demand removal; I'm okay with that, but if you aren't, go ahead and trim him.
- I don't care for Overrun, but it's probably okay in your cube since the environment is a bit lower-powered. Keep an eye on it.

Other considerations:
- Your cube really looks like it could use more counterspells. As it stands, you have less than a dozen, some of which ( Dismiss, Force Spike, Exclude) hardly seem playable in my experience. I'd really suggest you consider running a few more unless your players get extremely upset playing against counterspells, which I know is sometimes a concern. Doubling up on counters in the 2-drop spot has worked out great for me, and if you want some lower-powered counters to balance the increased number of them, I've really liked Prohibit in my super-lean environment, since it can counter a bunch of stuff without wrecking someone's day who's trying to get off one of the few expensive cards. I'd recommend powering up some of the worst ones, at least, but that's just my own taste.

It looks like you've done pretty well for a first go-round! Sorry I couldn't be more helpful - you've done most of the heavy lifting already yourself, it seems!

Thanks. A few questions.

You say that Silverheart is one of the only ramp targets. I want green ramp to be good, but so far, no one has done anything impressive with it. What else would you suggest?
Overrun was kind of my attempt at a green finisher. Would something like Garruk Wildspeaker be a better fit?
I like your idea of more counters. I'm considering going to two Counterspell and Remand and Mana Leak as well as adding Prohibit. Too much?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

What is everyone's experiences with actual counterspell in cube? I tend to find people shy away because of the , but I'm not sure if thats fair to the card.

Remand and mana leak I've always found to be solid.

 

[Dom Harvey]

OG Garruk is almost the perfect planeswalker, and I'd definitely recommend it

 

[safra]

What is everyone's experiences with actual counterspell in cube? I tend to find people shy away because of the , but I'm not sure if thats fair to the card.

Remand and mana leak I've always found to be solid.

It is very very very good. Mana leak is basically Counterspell anyway and OG counterspell is like a proactive vindicate. I've run it on and off, though I haven't had it in for a while. If I have a hand of four cards, and one of them is Counterspell and another is lightning bolt, I've conquered fear and am on top of the world.

That said, the UU wasn't insignificant here either. Hitting double blue on turn two is harder than a single blue so my density of early threats pushed people towards mana leak and Prohibit.

I also really like some gold counterspells, especially the modal ones. They encourage diverse control decks and get to the drafter who needs them.