All I see is a wall of words that should not matter as much as it apparently does to some of you. I've lost my sense of amusement with it all and just wanted to share that I don't approve of this brand of madness.
Card/Deck Ug... What should I do with my Blue-Green section?
- Thread starter James Stevenson
- Start date
Aoret
Developer
I actually thought the above was a really good, really civil discussion. And I think there's consensus on the fact that the terminology open to a lot of interpretation and various usage. Disagreement is a good thing because it shows us other perspectives and prevents excessive groupthink on the forums. The fact that we didn't emerge with "tempo means this" doesn't make the discussion a waste of time. I particularly enjoyed the discussion by venny and others breaking down magic theory into a handful of types of resource. It's basic stuff we all probably know, but sometimes it helps to cover those basics again and refresh our perspective.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
A lot of really good posts here. Wanted to pick out one point to talk more in detail, as it touches on a lot of important things.
I think its important to remember that midrange design has changed a lot over the years. NWO Midrange tends to focus on cards that generate both card advantage and tempo. Thragtusk is a perfect example of this: against aggro decks it effectively sets them back a turn via life gain, while against control decks it generates card advantage by demanding two removal spells to deal with one threat. This is why the card is so good. Planeswalkers were also part of that shift, as they give a midrange deck, again, the tools that both generate tempo advantage and card advantage. They generate tempo advantage in the sense that you are getting a free spell effect every turn, meaning you can sequence more activity than an opponent on your turn. They also generate card advantage at the same time, as they either draw cards or kill things.
This is what I mean by midrange "value" cards: cards that produce both tempo and card advantage, and why I think there should be some caution in the density being run. These cards represent a lethal marrage of the two concepts, which cause many groups to overdraft them, and for good reason.
This might seem overly technical, but think for a moment about how good thragtusk is against bounce: you just can never generate a tempo advantage against it. The traditional weakness fatties had against tempo based strategies (specifically bounce) was that the midrange deck was casting one spell a turn. They were structured in a way where they had a natural weakness against decks better able to sequence their spells, and bounce was devestating against them. You could put them in a position where you were actively adding to your board, while forcing them to perpetually repeat the same ineffectual turn, over-and-over again. You could advance your gameplan, and they never could.
Thragtusk breaks this strategy in half, because the card represents three spells in one: a 5/3 monster, a 3/3 token, and a 5 lifegain spell. You could never put thraggy back on tempo, because the thragtusk player was always advancing their game state in some way, no matter what you did to it. Because thragtusk represents such an insane amount of value, any interaction you made with it would have the net result of actually putting you behind on tempo. The card is like a tempo sucking black hole as far as the game's math is concerned.
As a theortical concept, tempo is really essential, touches upon huge swaths of the game, and plays a massive role in dictating why formats work in the way they do. This covers everything from fast mana rocks, to ETB value creatures, to planeswalkers, to format condensing combo or aggro decks. I think this is especially important for both riptide cubes and NWO formats, because both are focused on keeping things action packed and moving forward, leading to the perception of tempo as an idea so large it swallows itself as a meaninful concept.
However, I agree with you completly that talking about "tempo cards" or "tempo decks" is not really helpful. Like you said, in the way we usually think about tempo decks (basically all of the cards ran in every delver deck ever) thragtusk is not a tempo card, its a midrange card. It just is that what makes it a great midrange card is its ability to generate both card advantage and tempo advantage: and thats the important thing to realize.
There is a broader conversation here though, that would be helpful to archetype design, delignating what exactly makes something a tempo deck, aggro-control deck, or aggro-disruption deck. A lot of the defintions I see tossed around I think are dated, and quite bad. For example, the era of decks generating tempo predominatly through bounce or hemorrhaging card advantage is long gone. With how low our curves are, and the sheer volumn of ETB creatures running around today, tempo generation based around bounce isn't going to get you very far.
I think its important to remember that midrange design has changed a lot over the years. NWO Midrange tends to focus on cards that generate both card advantage and tempo. Thragtusk is a perfect example of this: against aggro decks it effectively sets them back a turn via life gain, while against control decks it generates card advantage by demanding two removal spells to deal with one threat. This is why the card is so good. Planeswalkers were also part of that shift, as they give a midrange deck, again, the tools that both generate tempo advantage and card advantage. They generate tempo advantage in the sense that you are getting a free spell effect every turn, meaning you can sequence more activity than an opponent on your turn. They also generate card advantage at the same time, as they either draw cards or kill things.
This is what I mean by midrange "value" cards: cards that produce both tempo and card advantage, and why I think there should be some caution in the density being run. These cards represent a lethal marrage of the two concepts, which cause many groups to overdraft them, and for good reason.
This might seem overly technical, but think for a moment about how good thragtusk is against bounce: you just can never generate a tempo advantage against it. The traditional weakness fatties had against tempo based strategies (specifically bounce) was that the midrange deck was casting one spell a turn. They were structured in a way where they had a natural weakness against decks better able to sequence their spells, and bounce was devestating against them. You could put them in a position where you were actively adding to your board, while forcing them to perpetually repeat the same ineffectual turn, over-and-over again. You could advance your gameplan, and they never could.
Thragtusk breaks this strategy in half, because the card represents three spells in one: a 5/3 monster, a 3/3 token, and a 5 lifegain spell. You could never put thraggy back on tempo, because the thragtusk player was always advancing their game state in some way, no matter what you did to it. Because thragtusk represents such an insane amount of value, any interaction you made with it would have the net result of actually putting you behind on tempo. The card is like a tempo sucking black hole as far as the game's math is concerned.
As a theortical concept, tempo is really essential, touches upon huge swaths of the game, and plays a massive role in dictating why formats work in the way they do. This covers everything from fast mana rocks, to ETB value creatures, to planeswalkers, to format condensing combo or aggro decks. I think this is especially important for both riptide cubes and NWO formats, because both are focused on keeping things action packed and moving forward, leading to the perception of tempo as an idea so large it swallows itself as a meaninful concept.
However, I agree with you completly that talking about "tempo cards" or "tempo decks" is not really helpful. Like you said, in the way we usually think about tempo decks (basically all of the cards ran in every delver deck ever) thragtusk is not a tempo card, its a midrange card. It just is that what makes it a great midrange card is its ability to generate both card advantage and tempo advantage: and thats the important thing to realize.
There is a broader conversation here though, that would be helpful to archetype design, delignating what exactly makes something a tempo deck, aggro-control deck, or aggro-disruption deck. A lot of the defintions I see tossed around I think are dated, and quite bad. For example, the era of decks generating tempo predominatly through bounce or hemorrhaging card advantage is long gone. With how low our curves are, and the sheer volumn of ETB creatures running around today, tempo generation based around bounce isn't going to get you very far.
Aoret
Developer
^ possibly my favorite Grillo post. This articulates a lot of things I was thinking but couldn't write because (ostensibly) I'm at work, and it articulates those things better than I could have.
Is this a good point to move the discussion to a dedicated thread and let this get back to how painful UG is to design? Or do we just call it a wash at this point and let the thread fully derail?
Is this a good point to move the discussion to a dedicated thread and let this get back to how painful UG is to design? Or do we just call it a wash at this point and let the thread fully derail?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
A Trainwreck?
The best threads on this site are ones that derail. And that post from Grillo is stellar. I say let it ride. 
Touching upon something Grillo mentioned... I come at these conversations from a slightly outdated meta (my cube is 2005 more than it is 2015), so sometimes my contributions are not fully applicable with what most guys are running. Sometimes I write a reply and then I delete it because I realize it's useless to the conversation. Sometimes I reply when I probably shouldn't because I feel like posting (this post may fall into that category). Anyway...
Grillo is correct that the days of card disadvantage tempo are gone from contemporary cubes. Even in my cube, the influx of better creatures (particularly at lower CC) has made it so that this type of deck really needs a great draw to be able to truly hemorrhage cards and not just lose. I recently tried to run Seal of Removal thinking it was still good and honestly it didn't do enough even in the deck that should have wanted it (but it used to be good - I know because I ran it in a lot of decks). Silent Departure has been better despite not being instant and it's because you can get a second shot out of it which really can help later in the game when you just need one more guy to sneak through. Your opponent knowing you have that play also alters the games sometimes. So anyone who hasn't run that card, I recommend you give it a try. It's totally decent.
Touching upon something Grillo mentioned... I come at these conversations from a slightly outdated meta (my cube is 2005 more than it is 2015), so sometimes my contributions are not fully applicable with what most guys are running. Sometimes I write a reply and then I delete it because I realize it's useless to the conversation. Sometimes I reply when I probably shouldn't because I feel like posting (this post may fall into that category). Anyway...
Grillo is correct that the days of card disadvantage tempo are gone from contemporary cubes. Even in my cube, the influx of better creatures (particularly at lower CC) has made it so that this type of deck really needs a great draw to be able to truly hemorrhage cards and not just lose. I recently tried to run Seal of Removal thinking it was still good and honestly it didn't do enough even in the deck that should have wanted it (but it used to be good - I know because I ran it in a lot of decks). Silent Departure has been better despite not being instant and it's because you can get a second shot out of it which really can help later in the game when you just need one more guy to sneak through. Your opponent knowing you have that play also alters the games sometimes. So anyone who hasn't run that card, I recommend you give it a try. It's totally decent.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
that looks like a Lorescale Coatl
Grillo, turn that post into an article you fuckin' clown. I think it at least deserves that much.
Aoret
Developer
and so we come full circle.
Grillo should stop playing magic and work on world peace or something.