General What makes you cut an archetype?

[Chris Taylor]

See the title. Under what circumstances are you cutting a whole deck archetype from your cube? (One that's already integrated I mean, not what are you excluding in your initial design)

It's a little hard to say "Too weak" or "Too strong" since you can shape the cube to make those statements not true, but sometimes that's more work than it's worth.

What has made you cut an archetype before, and why?

 

[Eric Chan]

A combination of

• narrow enablers and/or too much linearity (poison principle)
• the archetype not being highly valued by the draft group, or just plain not understood
• middling power level, even when the whole deck comes together

Birthing Pod was an example of the second point here - my player base just didn't know how to make heads or tails of it, and were genuinely confused when they asked me why I'd slotted in multiple copies.

 

[Aston]

I'd want to say I'd cut an archetype if it was not fun, but you'd have to wrestle Braids out of my cold dead fingers before I'd give her up.

 

[ahadabans]

Number one reason for me is because I want to run another archetype in it's place and I simply don't have room without cutting something. Since doing my modular design, I've also cut or altered archetypes based on what color combinations they work in and how well that lines up with the layout of the modules.

 

[shamizy]

If I don't see the archetype drafted beyond me forcing it, it's time to cut it. Luckily for me, my playgroup is full of guys who have been playing for years across multiple formats who play Limited like every new set so this isn't really an issue.

 

[sigh]

I feel strongly that I am a combination of both ahadabans and shamizy in their posts.

Design space is super finite in a 405 environment, I can only imagine in a tight 360. This is one reason I fall over myself when I think I've found a way to collapse a section of the space into something denser.

And I will also look for stuff that is just never ever happening. I, though, have a fairly casual group environment, which makes this assessment much more difficult in some ways.

In this same vein, watching what your drafters organically drift towards can help shape design directions for bolstering things or cutting down on OP stuff. AKA imo balancing an environment is an important reason to remove/nerf archetypes.

 

[James Stevenson]

I tried to make blink decks work for a while, but that was because one mad friend of my made it come together before I was ever supporting it. But it never happened again after that, and I rarely ever got to draft with that guy, so I cut it. As a deck it was kind of a failed experiment, but I think it reveals another reason to cut an archetype: your playgroup doesn't always stay constant. One guy gave me a beautiful Portuguese Akroma, but he moved away and eventually I realised nobody ever drafted her. So she went too.

 

[Peter LaCara]

Power level reasons. I am slowly cutting pieces away from the blink deck because it feels like it's starting to dominate every draft and it feels unhealthy. Like, it's gotten so bad I'm seriously considering cutting Galepowder Mage because it's too strong.

Similar reasoning coming from the other end. When you put together the best version of a deck and it still goes 1-2, it's time to take a hard look at the archetype and consider whether it's currently worth supporting because it might be a trap. I'm thinking enchantress might currently be on the chopping block. One guy put together a pretty sweet Abzan deck once and it's done absolutely nothing since then.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Power level reasons. I am slowly cutting pieces away from the blink deck because it feels like it's starting to dominate every draft and it feels unhealthy. Like, it's gotten so bad I'm seriously considering cutting Galepowder Mage because it's too strong.

Similar reasoning coming from the other end. When you put together the best version of a deck and it still goes 1-2, it's time to take a hard look at the archetype and consider whether it's currently worth supporting because it might be a trap. I'm thinking enchantress might currently be on the chopping block. One guy put together a pretty sweet Abzan deck once and it's done absolutely nothing since then.

This is different for me since I can literally add power to any card I want

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Should drafting an archetype be organic or a conscious act?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Should drafting an archetype be organic or a conscious act?

Hopefully both. The more people pay attention, the less organic it can be

 

[ahadabans]

Exactly what Chris said. Ideally, you see a card that is interesting and you draft it. Then you notice cards that synergies and snatch them up. Next thing you know you've wound up loosely in an archetype the cube supports. But you didn't do it with that specific goal in mind.

Problem with too much archetype drafting is it feels on rails and can be stale. Not enough archetype drafting and everything is good stuff. So some middle point is probably ideal.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Yeah, I was trying to square Jame's statement about blink decks. I remember back in the day, if you had asked me about blink decks I would have given a similar response. At that time I was trying to explicitly support the deck as an archetype, where people would affirmatively pick up blinking effects, and which I found never really worked.

Now, I'm at the point where I'm more worried about blink decks just being the natural result of drafting certain color combinations: you don't draft blink decks, you run restoration angel, and a blink deck will be made, regardless of what the drafter may have intended, or thought they were drafting.

 

[ahadabans]

Blink is a difficult one because it's technically combo. So much like tinker or natural order, finding a fair version is challenging. Both cards are 2 for 1'ing yourself so what you get has to be worth that. Things like momentary blink are the same thing. How much value is enough to justify the slot? Blink also suffers from good-stuff-itis in that it's really only good with other value cards you would run without any blinks shenanigans. Not easy to balance.