I guess 4/4. If I played it on turn two and get it to 4/4 on turn 4 or 3, that's great. But if I draw it on turn 6 it'll be bad. Same problem as most aggro 2-drops, really. I don't know what I want. The card's probably fine. Did you ever try it?
Card/Deck +1/+1 Counters
- Thread starter James Stevenson
- Start date
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Don't cards like Gorehouse Chainwalker get played in cubes?
A 3/3 beater for 2 is fine. Not great, but fine, particularly if it is sometimes 4/4 or 5/5 and we are getting added value from the counters.
A 3/3 beater for 2 is fine. Not great, but fine, particularly if it is sometimes 4/4 or 5/5 and we are getting added value from the counters.
CML
Contributor
So at its biggest Kudzu is a juggernaut, and within a few turns it will outgrow a Tarmogoyf. I've played with the Plant in Modern, though, and this is the wrong way to think about the card, which has also sucked in my experience. Consider
-Even if it's a 4/4 on t4, it started off as a 1/1. Even worse than Cloistered Youth in this regard.
-Kudzu is a shit topdeck and Tarmogoyf is an awesome one
-Kudzu probably needs to grow by 2 a turn to make it all that great, which is a tall order for even 20/360 (as opposed to even 10/60 with 4 Knight of the Reliquary or Scapeshift).
Wait, James already said these things
-Even if it's a 4/4 on t4, it started off as a 1/1. Even worse than Cloistered Youth in this regard.
-Kudzu is a shit topdeck and Tarmogoyf is an awesome one
-Kudzu probably needs to grow by 2 a turn to make it all that great, which is a tall order for even 20/360 (as opposed to even 10/60 with 4 Knight of the Reliquary or Scapeshift).
Wait, James already said these things
Well, every time I think about kudzu this is the kind of thing I think. Nevertheless my memory tells me it wasn't good. I think it needs testing.
I stand by Cloistered Youth still being a good card.
For comparison, last draft a player jammed Ajani's Pridemate into his Junk deck, and often it just incidentally grew to a 4/4 by Turn 4 or so, and it proved to be one of the best cards in his deck.
If Kudzu started as a 2/2 we'd probably all be playing it.
Not being as good of a topdeck as the best attacking 2-drop of all time is kind of a ridiculous statement.
I'm not saying it makes the cut, but some of these comparisons feel a bit off.
CML
Contributor
only one way to find out
it's just worth considering that people raged at its inclusion in my cube, though it might be good over in waddstown.YOU TAKE IT BACK FOR SHITTY CLOISTERED YOUTH
OR ELSE YOU GET A DRINK OF STINK VERMOUTH
#iambicpentameter
Why is cloistered youth bad?
only one way to find out
YOU TAKE IT BACK FOR SHITTY CLOISTERED YOUTH
OR ELSE YOU GET A DRINK OF STINK VERMOUTH
#iambicpentameter
Okay, so, you say it's bad because it's a 1/1 temporarily, but, Christ, it's not for blocking anyways. Almost all cube removal that kills a 1/1 also kills a 3/3, and turning Black is actually a form of protection against black removal. The life loss is almost always irrelevant. And people run stuff like Accorder Paladin, which always dies on its first attack and rarely even has a (highly) relevant trigger.
If cloistered youth is bad because it starts at 1 toughness before it's 3 toughness, we'd better cut all agro creatures that are permanently 1 toughness or otherwise start at 1 toughness until you start doing things that put counters on it, which is to say, almost all of them.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
CML has had too many bad experiences of it being bricked by a 4/4 and slowly killing him
Edit, for Clarity: FROM INNISTRAD DRAFT
Edit, for Clarity: FROM INNISTRAD DRAFT
Agreeing about Accorder Paladin. I doubled it for my white aggro package but it hasn't pulled it's weight. I am going back down to one. Perhaps for a Cloistered Youth.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Accorder Paladin has been good for me. His trigger goes off an extra power or two all the time. A two drop that represents 4-5 damage in a single swing (that is spread out so you can't just chump it with 1 dude) is good for me.
Speaking of cloistered youth, flip cards don't add to devotion when they are flippped do they?
Speaking of cloistered youth, flip cards don't add to devotion when they are flippped do they?
Nope, no devotion from flipped cards.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Well, unless that card has a mana cost (which it doesn't). they pod like tokens do too
CML
Contributor
yeah pretty much. why is it bad? i pondered some other time. well, there are a bunch of reasons you could cite -- relevant life-loss is the main one -- that would be unconvincing compared to the experience of playing with it, as after that i have never thought of putting it in my cube again.
Pssst, guys: Daring Skyjek is better than Accorder Paladin! No, for reals. I've tried them both and Skyjek has a mode where it survives.
Cloistered Youth is not good. Not in draft, not in constructed, not in cube. The life loss is a real downside, and pretending that it's not won't make it go away. Maybe I run more Pacifism effects in my list than most people, but it seemed like she always got immobilized without actually biting the dust.
Cloistered Youth is not good. Not in draft, not in constructed, not in cube. The life loss is a real downside, and pretending that it's not won't make it go away. Maybe I run more Pacifism effects in my list than most people, but it seemed like she always got immobilized without actually biting the dust.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
=)
We've also been disappointed in Cloistered Youth, and she got cut some time ago. I've never actually given Daring Skyjek serious thought, I always chalked its awesomeness in Gatecrash drafts up to Boros being a house. But it does look kinda good, I mean, you would have to attack with other dudes for Accorder Paladin to be good anyway, so they're almost directly comparable. I'm having such a hard time cutting down my white section, though - perhaps it'll just be a direct switch to shake things up.
I run Accorder Paladin and Daring Skyjek and they are often in the same decks. Skyjek is not only a good card, it's a very interesting card to play with, and I think it's got a really important tension for white aggro decks. When you can choose between playing Skyjek or other two drops, and then have multiple options for the following turns, you have to really play it right to get this guy into the air (or not if you decided to go with other options). Playing this sort of card right is very rewarding. It's really good design!
I'm convinced, I'm bringing Skyjek in.
I'm starting to change my views on it too, but I'm gonna be stubborn for a few more days.
Hey duders, do you guys think this stuff could work at my cube's power level?
Well now. In my cube it still needs more testing. I think part of the strength of the archetype is that the red aggro creatures are good anyway:
These are already good, you just need to get the numbers right to make Ion Storm decent. As I said in my post in my cube list, this card is really good.
I think the weakness is the evolve guys. If your opponents can keep your Experiment Ones from evolving, you're stuck with 1/1s. This does require excellent counterspell draws though. I don't know, you should try it! The Experiment Ones are also problematic because nobody else wants to draft them. In my cube, this is the only green-based aggro deck, though really it's 2-4 colors.
You have a high level of removal in your cube, so buffing guys isn't the greatest strategy. On the other hand, your lifegain strategy is about making giant dudes, and these guys fit right in with this theme! If Ajani's Pridemate has been good, then probably the Experiment Ones and stuff will be good.
This is another one of those cool techy aggro decks, and I know you love them. It's all about interactions. I have the theme spread across 4 colors, and it could easily be stretched to blue. Ion Storm could also go in some neat control deck, we just have to find some more controlling +1/+1 counter guys. This is the next thing I'm going to look at.
These are already good, you just need to get the numbers right to make Ion Storm decent. As I said in my post in my cube list, this card is really good.
I think the weakness is the evolve guys. If your opponents can keep your Experiment Ones from evolving, you're stuck with 1/1s. This does require excellent counterspell draws though. I don't know, you should try it! The Experiment Ones are also problematic because nobody else wants to draft them. In my cube, this is the only green-based aggro deck, though really it's 2-4 colors.
You have a high level of removal in your cube, so buffing guys isn't the greatest strategy. On the other hand, your lifegain strategy is about making giant dudes, and these guys fit right in with this theme! If Ajani's Pridemate has been good, then probably the Experiment Ones and stuff will be good.
This is another one of those cool techy aggro decks, and I know you love them. It's all about interactions. I have the theme spread across 4 colors, and it could easily be stretched to blue. Ion Storm could also go in some neat control deck, we just have to find some more controlling +1/+1 counter guys. This is the next thing I'm going to look at.