Alphez's first Cube! Suggestions are very welcome :)

[Alphez]

Hello again!

Background
I started playing Cube with some friends who only play casually. They totally love Powermax Cubes, probably because they never actually played with the most powerful cards in the game. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but I have grown a bit sick of the lopsided situations that such an environment can create. That is why I decided to build a Cube of my own, which in my intentions should:

- encourage relying on synergies rather than raw power
- make aggro and tempo decks viable, avoiding the usual midrange-fest
- be powerful enough to make my casual friends happy, but interesting enough to hook up other players in the local shop, including the most spikey ones

It will hardly be drafted too often, but if I can engage other players in the shop I might manage to make it a recurring thing. I wouldn't mind that.

I have been out of town for a while, so at the moment I don't have access to my cards and to my playgroup. But I want to have a Cube list ready for when I will go back home (which is in a few days), so that I could propose my alternative to Powermax right away. This is the reason why, so far, I could only goldfish on CubeTutor and ask for suggestions here. The comments I received here have been golden. They led me to rebuild my Cube from scratch (you can find the original thread and list in the quote at the bottom of this post, if you are interested) and I believe it is much better now. Still, I think there is room for further improvements: I am open to suggestions.

The Cube itself

Here you can see the CubeTutor list.
I focused on 6 main themes, trying to stretch them out in as many colours as I could. Specifically, I have:

Tokens

Spoiler

This is mostly a Boros theme, but every colour actually has some decent tokens producer and ways to use the extra bodies. It's nothing too original, but I like to have the theme because it has some overlap with other supported strategies like Artifacts, Spells matter and Aristocrats. I originally wanted Tokens to be a thing in Selesnya, too, but I couldn't really find a way to make it work. Orzhov is currently a much better alternative for the archetype.

Spells matter

Spoiler

This is a theme that I totally love and that received a lot of support with Origins and the Tarkir block. It is obviously a mostly-Jeskai theme. I tried to add some depth by including a tiny bit of support in black and green. I honestly don't think that anybody would splash black or green for them, but they are interesting cards regardless of their synergy with the Prowess theme so it's okay to have them in the Cube (at least for now).
Luckily Prowess also triggers off of artifacts, which happen to be another supported theme in my Cube. The Tokens archetype also overlaps very well with this one.

Flash tempo/control

Spoiler

This was an attempt to find a cool identity for the Simic combination. The two colours have some very solid flash creatures, which allow the Simic player to be very reactive without having to sacrifice board development. The theme is easily expanded into white and obviously benefits from the many instants included in the Cube, courtesy of the Prowess theme.

Artifacts

Spoiler

This is a new addition to my Cube. I dislike that it is mostly based in Jeskai, which already has other options available; I love that it can easily be declined in different ways, that it also has splash-worthy bombs in black and that most of its cards can actually be used in several decks, being colourless. I tried to avoid supporting the ramp version of the archetype, since midrange decks will come out anyway and I don't really want to further encourage that.

Graveyard matters

Spoiler

This was originally the biggest theme in the Cube, but I am a bit afraid that it has become less and less obvious compared to the other ones. Maybe this is not a bad thing: I guess having archetypes that get recognised only after a while gives depth to the format. Still, I think I could improve this a lot.
What I like the most is the tension between cards that want to consume your graveyard and cards that would prefer it to stay stocked. The "keep the graveyard stocked" thing is integral to the identity of green in my Cube and I like that it sets it apart from the other colours, which generally consume it.
Among the graveyard-centric decks that can be built in my cube are the Goblin Welder deck and the black recursive aggro deck. I am not a huge fan of this last one, so I could see myself cutting it unless my players show interest in it.

Aristocrats

Spoiler

This started as a Birthing Pod theme. I played Pod for years in Modern and I was eager to do it again in Cube, but I came to realise that it might be way too powerful for the environment that I am building. Loving someone means being able to let them go. Good bye, my dearest friend.
So I switched to a more generic Aristocrats theme, with several cards that reward you for killing your own stuff. I included a few cards that "like" to die and that can play well with other supported themes. There are also a number of stealing effects available, to make things even more fun.
Black and red are probably the core colours, since they provide a lot of incentives and sac outlets, but the other three can all play a significant part in this strategy.

So, this is it! If anybody has suggestions, I am eager to read them!

Spoiler: Original post

Hi guys!
After months of lurking, I finally decided to go ahead and make a Cube of my own... and, subsequently, to make an account on RiptideLab

Background
I started playing Cube with some friends who only play casually. They totally love Powermax Cubes, probably because they never actually played with the most powerful cards in the game. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but I have grown a bit sick of the lopsided situations that such an environment can create. That is why I decided to build a Cube of my own, which in my intentions should:

- encourage relying on synergies rather than raw power
- make aggro and tempo decks viable, avoiding the usual midrange-fest
- be powerful enough to make my casual friends happy, but interesting enough to hook up other players in the local shop, including the most spikey ones

It will hardly be drafted too often, but if I can engage other players in the shop I might manage to make it a recurring thing. I wouldn't mind that.
Now, I do have a list ready and I did some draft simulations on CubeTutor. I didn't get to build it yet in real life, though, and I would love to get some preliminary feedback from more experienced builders before I get to it. My main fears are that colours are imbalanced (either power-wise or theme-wise), that there are either too many or too few removals and that the amount of themes is inappropriate (if there are too many, the risk is that they are too watered down to actually be relevant).

The Cube itself

Here you can see the CubeTutor list.

And here is a quick rundown of the themes included (which are for the most part the typical Riptide themes, as far as I know).

Graveyard matters
This is probably the biggest theme in the Cube, mostly because of how broad it is and how well it interacts with other themes in the list. The graveyard is meant to be an important resource of advantage, that can be exploited in different ways. There is a nice tension between cards that want to empty your graveyard and cards that would prefer it to stay stocked. I also like that some old-school cards that my casual friends love acquire an entirely new dimension in this format: for example Wheel of Fortune becomes an enabler for graveyard decks, while Timetwister becomes maindeckable hate.

Zombies
Duh. Talking about graveyard interactions and Riptide classics... Nothing too unusual here. I tried to spread the theme in other colours, especially in blue and green, and to include zombies that would be useful also outside of a dedicated Zombie deck. There are also some generic tribal support cards, like Obelisk of Urd and Adaptive Automaton, which are good because I want to support Goblins, too.

Pod and other sacrifice effects
Another classic theme. Besides playing the usual suspects, I included a few cards that "like" to die and that can play well with other supported themes. Also note that it's theoretically possible to assemble both the Melira Pod combo and the Kiki Pod one.
There are then a number of other sacrifice effects, which play well with the above cards and with the various stealing effects available.

Goblins
This tribe is probably less aggressive than Zombies, but its cards are more useful on their own and can guarantee a better mid/late game if the aggro plan fails. Goblins can do it all! The big downside is that they are mostly limited to red, but there are some rare exceptions to the rule (not counting the Changelings).

Tokens
This is mostly a Boros theme, but every colour actually has some decent tokens producer. Again, nothing too original, but I like to have the theme because it works well with other supported strategies like Goblins and Spells matter.

Spells matter
This is a theme that I totally love and that received a lot of support with the Tarkir block. It is obviously a mostly-Jeskai theme and almost all card choices are self-explanatory. I tried to add some depth by including a tiny bit of support in black and green, as well as by giving the deck something to do besides attacking. I am not sure that any of these things are actually worth it, though they are interesting cards regardless of their synergy with the Prowess theme.

Flash tempo/control
This was an attempt to find a cool identity for the Simic combination. The two colours have some very solid flash creatures, which allow the Simic player to be very reactive without having to sacrifice board development. The theme is easily expanded into white and obviously benefits from the many instants included in the Cube, courtesy of the Prowess theme.

Life matters
Once again, another typical Riptide theme. Strongly rooted in white, it can easily include green for easy triggers or black for juicy rewards. I also have Drogskol Reaver to try and do something fancy: it is probably too cute, but I imagined it wouldn't hurt having a finisher in Azorius colours that a control player could expect to wheel. All in all it's not a theme that I am too fond of, but I am reluctant to cut it because it has links to almost every other theme I want to support.

+1/+1 counters
I won't spend many words on this, because it has been already discusses in detail in the forums. Basically all the cards I run are taken from there. My only concern is if the removal I have has been watered down enough to make this strategy viable. I think it does, but I would appreciate your opinion on this.

Lands matter
This is actually a minor subtheme that I originally added in order to include yet another way to make the graveyard relevant. I'm not sure it's worth it, though. I like Worm Harvest a lot, to the point that I doubled up on it, but I don't think there is enough critical mass to reliably draft this deck. Some of the cards are kinda narrow, too. Could this theme be destined to be cut from the get go?

Twin
With a bit of luck, it's actually possible to draft a Twin deck. I doubled-up on Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, since it's a hilarious card that does crazy stuff whenever it hits the field. I don't play Twin itself because it's not as versatile. I also have Goblin Matron to help finding Kiki and there are four cards that combo off with it. I don't expect the deck to come together very often, but I think that the pieces are good enough on their own to make them worth playing even in another context.

This is it. I feel like there are way too many themes for this to be normal, but at the same time those themes are so intertwined that it's difficult to draw lines. What do you guys think? Help me strike the right balance, please!

 

[Laz]

Looking over the list I was nodding my head and thinking 'This looks pretty good. Seems like some solid decisions have been made, and you can really feel the designer's personal touch coming through in a lot of these choices'.

Decided to do a quick draft, saw Shu Yun and decided that I would try for a tempo-based aggro deck, so I followed up the pick with a Pit Fight from a weak pack. Seems fine. Here is where it starts to unravel. Library of Alexandria -> Coalition Relic. It would have been so easy for the strength of these cards alone to have swung me to a mid-range control strategy, but I stayed the course.

It feels like quite a large number of your cards are just kind of 'eh'. Just from my experience in the draft, Rotting Rats, Toshiro Umezawa, Samurai of the Pale Curtain and Bloodmark Mentor are all examples of cards which I would consider unlikely to make my final 40. None of the cards are bad per-say, they just don't excite.

It is a little hard to take in and understand the interactions of 450 cards at once, so I will likely be back with more comments...

 

[Alphez]

Looking over the list I was nodding my head and thinking 'This looks pretty good. Seems like some solid decisions have been made, and you can really feel the designer's personal touch coming through in a lot of these choices'.

Decided to do a quick draft, saw Shu Yun and decided that I would try for a tempo-based aggro deck, so I followed up the pick with a Pit Fight from a weak pack. Seems fine. Here is where it starts to unravel. Library of Alexandria -> Coalition Relic. It would have been so easy for the strength of these cards alone to have swung me to a mid-range control strategy, but I stayed the course.

It feels like quite a large number of your cards are just kind of 'eh'. Just from my experience in the draft, Rotting Rats, Toshiro Umezawa, Samurai of the Pale Curtain and Bloodmark Mentor are all examples of cards which I would consider unlikely to make my final 40. None of the cards are bad per-say, they just don't excite.

It is a little hard to take in and understand the interactions of 450 cards at once, so I will likely be back with more comments...

Thanks for the help! I'm eager to read your comments
Yes, one of my problems is that I don't really have much Cube experience besides my friends' Powermax. I am trying to tone down quite a bit from that, but it's difficult to hit the right level without first-hand experience. These forums have been a great help, though!

 

[Eric Chan]

Welcome to the forums, Alphez!

While I think you have the beginnings of a solid list here, I feel like the cube has too many themes crammed in, each of which are a bit unfocused. There's lifegain - oh god, I thought I'd seen the last of Ajani's Pridemate - but there's no Soul Warden, nor Falkenrath Noble (or second Blood Artist, if you really want to soup it up). There are the requisite Birthing Pods, but there are next to no undying and persist creatures, meaning that Pods may well be dead on arrival. There's supposedly a spells theme, but there's only one Young Pyromancer, no Delver of Secrets, and generally no real incentive to go into this archetype.

My advice would be to narrow the number of supported themes to start, and really hone in and focus on doing them well. If, after you get a few drafts in and you like where things are, then you may want to layer in additional themes one at a time. Layering in themes is really the key - a lot of your themes above currently have very little overlap, and are spread so thin as it is that I think even people trying to force one of your archetypes may find themselves short on cards; especially in a 450 list, where individual cards aren't guaranteed to show up.

Sorry to sound so harsh, mate. I think there are good design principles being applied here, but a lack of focus might be hindering the actual execution. As a design exercise, I might try and experiment with shrinking the cube down to, say, 405 cards, and force yourself to think about what you really value, versus what themes are expendable.

 

[Alphez]

Welcome to the forums, Alphez!

While I think you have the beginnings of a solid list here, I feel like the cube has too many themes crammed in, each of which are a bit unfocused. There's lifegain - oh god, I thought I'd seen the last of Ajani's Pridemate - but there's no Soul Warden, nor Falkenrath Noble (or second Blood Artist, if you really want to soup it up). There are the requisite Birthing Pods, but there are next to no undying and persist creatures, meaning that Pods may well be dead on arrival. There's supposedly a spells theme, but there's only one Young Pyromancer, no Delver of Secrets, and generally no real incentive to go into this archetype.

My advice would be to narrow the number of supported themes to start, and really hone in and focus on doing them well. If, after you get a few drafts in and you like where things are, then you may want to layer in additional themes one at a time. Layering in themes is really the key - a lot of your themes above currently have very little overlap, and are spread so thin as it is that I think even people trying to force one of your archetypes may find themselves short on cards; especially in a 450 list, where individual cards aren't guaranteed to show up.

Sorry to sound so harsh, mate. I think there are good design principles being applied here, but a lack of focus might be hindering the actual execution. As a design exercise, I might try and experiment with shrinking the cube down to, say, 405 cards, and force yourself to think about what you really value, versus what themes are expendable.

Hi there!
Well, I came here for criticism, so I am more than happy to hear a honest opinion and some actual advice.
The number of themes that one should include was a big question mark for me, at least in this initial stage. Of course you don't want to have too few because that would make the Cube uninteresting, but I agree that having too many is also detrimental. In your opinion, how many should I cut in order to find my sweet spot? I think that "Life matters" and "Lands" would be the first ones that I would cut, just because I find them less interesting than the alternatives. I am also not 100% sold on the "+1/+1 counters" theme, because I feel that it brings along some very subpar cards. I am a bit afraid that Green would feel useless without it, though.

 

[Eric Chan]

From your list above, Twin would seem like the most egregious offender. While I think it'll be funny the first few times it comes together, it will probably head south into groan territory pretty soon after that. Twin is the kind of archetype that's fair game in high-powered cubes, but if you aren't giving opponents the chance to interact with cards like Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile, a lot of the infinite wins will feel to the other player like there was nothing they could have done about it. A quick glance at your list appears to show that only black can reasonably interact with the combo, while most of the other colours are left out in the cold.

Goblins also seem a little thin, especially beyond red, which tends to be a problem when attempting to support tribal in cube. The consensus, at least on this forum, is that the only tribe really worth supporting is humans, because they have a presence in all five colours, and a critical mass in one or two. Now, a few folks have had success supporting goblins here, but you may want to delve into custom card territory to ensure that you're providing enough support for the deck.

I would probably start by choosing five or six of your favourite themes from your initial list above, and go all out on each of them. Boost the number of cards in each archetype by as much as 50%, so that your drafters can hear your themes loud and clear. It's probably the best way to make sure that they're successful right out of the gates, and allows your drafters to get a feel for what kinds of decks you're explicitly pushing. Then, when those decks have had their time in the sun, you can pare back on some of the more fringe support cards, and try introducing new, layered archetypes into the mix, both to add more variety to the drafts and to provide more avenues for your expert drafters to mix and match deck types together.

 

[Alphez]

Up!

I made a lot of changes, following Eric's suggestions. The OP reflects that. I am eager to read what you guys think about it

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

This looks really good, very solid.

 

[Kirblinx]

So I gave your new cube a couple of drafts and it was a pretty fun experience. The abundance of fixing (and the fact that the bots are uneducated) meant that some of my decks ended up being 5-colour goodstuff piles eg.

UR Splash Everything from CubeTutor.com

I also did these drafts without looking at your dedicated themes in your first post. So I was pulled toward the UR spells, RW Spells/Tokens and I made a sweet black stax aggro deck which I guess could be classified as an aristocrats deck.
Once I read what themes you were trying to support I noticed you mentioned the graveyard and didn't really see it when I was drafting, so I tried to force it and ended up with this:

BGr Graveyard Shenanigans from CubeTutor.com

To me this doesn't feel like what I was hoping for, feels more aristocrats-esque than graveyard based. I don't know if splinterfright, ghoultree and friends can be competitive in this relatively high powered cube (I saw JtMS in nearly every draft). Also, I like how you mentioned that the recurring black aggro theme is your least favourite when it has been what I built two of my drafts around. To me that was all I could see that really used the graveyard (barring welder shenanigans). Maybe I am just too used to spider spawning and worm harvest as my win conditions and having the promise of a graveyard based strategy left me a little bitter. Even a little bit of reanimation would have been cool but oh well.

I'll do a couple more drafts later and give some more opinions and even question some of your card decisions (millikin comes to mind straight away) but overall it was good fun to draft and should be a blast to play.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Some thoughts, do with them as you will.
- Student of Warfare: I don't like this card, as level-ups always lead to blowouts against removal. (Enclave Cryptologist is perhaps the only exception to the universal rule that level ups tend to be bad.)
- You are extremely counter-light. This is fine if that's deliberate, but a cube of your size generally needs around 14-16 counterspells to support blue control.
- You took out Toshiro Umezawa, I'm assuming, based on an earlier comment in this thread. The card is extremely underappreciated, however, and performs quite excellently in most any environment, giving Johnny-style drafters a lot of amusement and giving B/x control strategies more creature cards that really fit their game plan. Looking at your list now, Cemetery Reaper and Grim Haruspex are both taking spots in 3 that I would gladly cut for Toshiro. Haruspex is really boring, and rarely does anything. Reaper is tolerable in cubes with lots of incidental synergies, but you have hardly any zombies (his ability alone is overcosted for the effect; you're letting white spew tokens on the cheap, so I don't see why you'd make black work so hard for theirs). Please reconsider unless you have actually playtested Toshiro and found him undesirable.
- I despise Despise; if you're looking for cool discard variants, I'd suggest Blackmail.
- The Abyss is abysmally unfun to play against and I personally would probably be really put off to see that card in a cube, especially if it was supposed to be a non-powermax environment.
- Whipflare is perhaps too efficient in your environment. You might want to consider downgrading it to a 3-mana equivalent. Just a thought; could be totally unnecessary.
- I'm not sure why anyone would ever play Splinterfright in this cube; there's not enough graveyard stuff. Maybe consider Managorger Hydra, which is really cool and potentially really powerful (it also plays into your spells-matter goals).
- Obstinate Baloth AND Thragtusk is awfully generic value-y together. I cut the Baloth, because playing Baloth -> Thragtusk is a pretty backbreaking 9-pt life swing, totally hosing aggressive decks. You may want to cut one of them to give aggressive decks some breathing room.
- Hornet Queen is pretty dull; I'd recommend you find a more fun big green thing.
- Relic of Progenitus is ridiculous garbage. Please never run this card. You don't have hardly any graveyard-matters cards as it is, so there's no need for this extremely narrow, extremely mean card when you have stuff like Scavenging Ooze already.

Overall, it looks pretty good! I'd maybe like to see some duplicates of the better artifact creatures since you're pushing a gentle artifacts-matter theme, but aside from that, I really like what you're doing with the cube. Keep at it!

 

[tibbelsandbitts]

Some thoughts, do with them as you will.
- I'm not sure why anyone would ever play Splinterfright in this cube; there's not enough graveyard stuff. Maybe consider Managorger Hydra, which is really cool and potentially really powerful
- Relic of Progenitus is ridiculous garbage. Please never run this card. You don't have hardly any graveyard-matters cards as it is, so there's no need for this extremely narrow, extremely mean card when you have stuff like Scavenging Ooze already.

Overall, it looks pretty good! I'd maybe like to see some duplicates of the better artifact creatures since you're pushing a gentle artifacts-matter theme, but aside from that, I really like what you're doing with the cube. Keep at it!

I feel like you may have been looking at the cube color by color, and he may have changed the cube since your comment but splinterfright mills vengevine, bloodghast, and bloodsoaked champion. Which would be cards some would like to remove with relic.

Overall i like your cube,
I am not the biggest fan of hallowed spiritkeeper myself, its never preformed like i thought it would.

Im sorry i don't have more to say other than it looks fun.

 

[tibbelsandbitts]

You have a decent amount of green self mill and besides ghoultree and vengvine. Theres not alot to do with it unless your gb. What about some cards with flashback like roar of the wurm or call of the pack. Or hooting mandrils with delve.

 

[Alphez]

Thanks a lot, guys!
I've loved this forum since the first time I stumbled upon it, because the community seemed t0 be super fun and supportive. I am glad that I finally joined

I'll answer to some of your comments, in random order.

- the low number of counterspells is not deliberate; it's just me being inexperienced I actually counted 16 of them, though, which are:

Spoiler

Mana Tithe
Silumgar Sorcerer
Glen Elendra Archmage
Venser, Shaper Savant
Draining Whelk
Daze
Force of Will
Divert
Counterspell
Mana Leak
Miscalculation
Remand
Dissipate
Exclude
Cryptic Command
Mystic Snake

I agree that some of them are quite narrow or situational, so it might be a good idea to fit a couple more in.

- Toshiro Umezawa did come out following the comments that I received here. I am glad to see that you have a different experience with it, because to me it felt like a good intersection between "graveyard matters" and "spells matter". It will go back in, probably substituting Cemetery Reaper. The Reaper is kind of a pet card of mine because I remember having won quite a few games in M10 limited with it, but this is not a core set draft and you are right that it pales in comparison with my other token makers.

- The Abyss is there mostly to push artifact decks towards black. It could be too much, though. It's true that it's quite frustrating to play against.

- I like Whipflare as a gentle push towards the artifacts theme. Much like Dispense Justice in white, it's a card that is perfectly reasonable in any deck that wants the effect but becomes even better in a dedicated artifacts deck. I think I will keep it in, for now.

- I will try some of the cuts/swaps suggested by RavebornMuse. I don't have overly strong feelings for most of the cards that he dislikes, so I might as well follow the suggestions of a more experienced builder and see if I like that.

- I think I want some more incentive for the Aristocrats deck. I might add a second Goblin Bombardment or something like that.

- The "graveyard matters" theme is the elephant in the room. I agree that it is not as obvious as the other ones. Maybe it should be more focused, I don't know. I considered Spider Spawning, but finally discarded it because I think the flashback cost is too expensive for Cube. Worm Harvest was discarded when I decided to remove the "lands matter" theme. Maybe it could come back as an incentive, together with a couple more cards that care about lands. I already have Bloodghast in my graveyard stuff package, which has landfall; I could have "lands matter" as a sub-section of the graveyard archetype. Maybe that would make it clearer that you can draft around such a theme. I would then have Goblin Welder, recursive black aggro and Worm Harvest/Loam as three distinct possible graveyard decks, besides having the generic value cards that exploit the graveyard.

- Reanimation is also an interesting suggestion and my group would appreciate it, since it's the kind of flashy play that they love in Powermax. I am a bit afraid of having it, because reanimation spells feel quite narrow to me and I think that a dedicated Reanimator deck could either be too good or too bad, with no appreciable middle ground. I think that I cannot allow for a very powerful reanimator deck without improving my removal suite, but that's the kind of chain reaction that quickly leads to increasing power level. I would like to avoid that, for now.

Thanks everybody for your comments, I really appreciate them

 

[Alphez]

You have a decent amount of green self mill and besides ghoultree and vengvine. Theres not alot to do with it unless your gb. What about some cards with flashback like roar of the wurm or call of the pack. Or hooting mandrils with delve.

I guess you meant Call of the Herd, right?
Those are very nice suggestions; I will see if I can make room for some of them.
GB is indeed the main graveyard pair. I would like blue to get more involved in the theme, but I had a hard time finding good incentives. At the moment, blue is decent at filling the graveyard with multiple looters but needs black or green to make that useful. If you have suggestions on how to change that, I'm all ears!

 

[tibbelsandbitts]

If you want blue to be involved. There is always delve. But in terms of filling you have thoughtscour. Yes i meant call of the herd.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Re: 16 counterspells - Of your list, I wouldn't count all of those cards, since some of them are too narrow to really be "counted" in my opinion.
Mana Tithe - I don't like Tithe much for my format since it's so fast that punishing people for curving out is usually not worth holding back 1 mana to maybe "get them", but it's tolerable elsewhere, I suppose. I don't count it for the 14-16 that blue control would want, since it's white.
Draining Whelk - This is an interesting potential low-powered control finisher, but I wouldn't see it in a draft and be drawn into it unless I was already heavily invested in blue. I don't know if I'd count this or not.
Force of Will - This seems really unnecessary for your format, and would probably be better off as a cheaper counterspell. I can't imagine it often being correct to freecast it, as it puts the control player down two cards to counter one spell, which is totally inefficient. This card is fantastic in high-powered format, but in your list, this is going to probably just be bait for bad new players to mess up, freecasting it "for fun" and setting themselves back unnecessarily. I consider it a trap very often and not worth running.
Divert - Not really a "control counterspell", but more like a combat trick, since it will be used to protect creatures 99.999% of the time, most likely.
Mystic Snake - Multicolour. I like it, but I wouldn't count it for blue control.

This leaves you with 11 counterspells that I would actually consider worth picking for a "control" deck, which some of your drafters will be interested in. As I said, it's fine to leave them narrow like this - I love narrow removal, it's fun - but another 3-4 that are solid, flexible counters below 3 cmc would be ideal to support a more "blue control" build effectively.

Re: The Abyss
I get that it supports artifact decks, but in this case, it feels more like using a hammer instead of a hole punch. Perhaps something like Glaze Fiend or Moriok Rigger would be more interesting to encourage building around?

Re: Reanimator
- Remember that reanimator cards are not just there for obscene combos - they're also fantastic value plays. Paying 2 mana for Animate Dead on a Nekrataal generates a lot of value! Think of "reanimate cards" as giving your creatures flashback. Everyone loves the flashback-esque effect of Bloodsoaked Champion, which is 2 mana to get back a 1-drop creature (albeit as many times as you wish). Reanimator cards should be seen in the same light. Just remind your drafters going in that "reanimator isn't a combo deck here!" or something of the like, and I think you'll be surprised by how fun it is to return things from the graveyard. There's nothing "narrow" about being able to recast creatures (and for generally cheaper!) from the graveyard, because stuff dies a lot in cube. It just takes thinking about Reanimator from the lens of a value play, rather than a combo play.

Just my thoughts, anyway! Glad if I can be of any help - it's great seeing what new members of the community can come up with, and I really like this very strong, yet subtle, artifact theme you're pushing.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

U/B/w Draw Go from CubeTutor.com

Looks like a blast.

Would have liked a lim-dul's vault, or /drum roll mystical teachings. Maybe a teferi? Thought scour? God delve is so great.

 

[Alphez]

Thanks for the suggestions, everybody!

As you can see here, I made some changes between yesterday and today. Most of your advices seemed solid, so I incorporated as much as I could.

Besides adjustments to the counterspells and discard spells suites and cuts to dull/overpowered cards, the main effort was in trying to fix the GY theme.
As I wrote yesterday, I tried to fit a lands/graveyard subtheme in. This means that I added double Worm Harvest, Knight of the White Orchid, Zuran Orb, Land Tax, Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime, a third Bloodghast instead of Defiler of Souls, Molten Vortex, Titania, Protector of Argoth, Sword of the Animist, Crucible of Worlds and Knight of the Reliquary. I trimmed a Wasteland and Expedition Map in order to reduce the likeliness of Wastelocks. I think that a dedicated lands/GY deck will not happen very often, but (together with 20 fetchlands) there are enough pieces to create worthwhile synergies every now and then. Yesterday I even put in a Terravore (I love that card!), but then I thought it was probably too narrow and changed to a more versatile Hooting Mandrills.

I decided to follow RavebornMuse's advice and put in some reanimation (or pseudo-reanimation) spells. They are spread out in different colours and slow enough to make sure that nobody could even think about making a combo deck out of them Let's see how it goes!

I, too, was tempted to try out a Teferi. In the end I took out Soulblade Djinn in order to make room for it. After all, I think that Prowess creatures are only interesting if they are cheap enough. After the first few turns, you probably just want to keep your mana open to cast noncreature spells. Having an extra Flash creature plays well into that plan.

Lim-Dul's Vault is a veery nice card, but gold slots are so tight...

 

[Alphez]

While performing the BFZ update, I made a lot of changes (you can see them here).

The most relevant one was repealing support for the artifacts archetype. I originally included it assuming that it would work well with my prowess theme; the problem is that many prowess incentive cards (my triple Delver and double Young Pyromancer, for example) do not have actual prowess and don't really care about artifacts being in your deck. Because of this, I ended up having 2 major aggro-ish themes in Jeskai colours which didn't really have too much overlap. Cutting the artifacts archetype was the obvious choice to me, because instants and sorceries in my list are usually decent on their own (or at least cantrip) and can therefore fit in most decks. Many artifacts or artifact-related cards felt much more narrow. And, to be honest, I like prowess much more than artifacts anyway

I used the free slots to make "lands matter" into a full-blown theme. It was already there as a minor thing, but thanks to BFZ it could now be enlarged. There are now a few useful lands, a number of cards that care about lands, and a few countermeasures as well. I like that this theme can be pushed in a number of different directions. The cards themselves don't seem to be overly poisonous, because you are playing lands anyway.

I had a double fetchlands and double shocklands manabase to begin with, so landfall feels right at home. I also included the full set of WWK+BFZ manlands because I love that cycle. I currently have placeholders for the 3 missing colour combinations, but they will become the appropriate manlands as soon as the next set hits. I wonder if my setup, which also includes Alara+Tarkir trilands, might now be too lands heavy? It's true that I removed all artifact fixers, so it's all on the lands now (and green), but from my initial goldfishing on CubeTutor it does seem like there are a bit too many lands. I don't like the concept of a ULD, though.

An addition that I like a lot in my list is Sygg, River Cutthroat. It's a solid card by itself, but it works very well with my manabase. Your opponent can't fetch for an untapped shockland without letting you draw, and that is an interaction that I like a lot.

Beside the above things, I included some support cards for existing themes. I also added triple Champion of the Parish and double Mayor of Avabruck, because (like everybody else) I already run plenty of good humans, so it felt right to replace dull one-drops with more interesting ones. Mayors are a good complement to this, and are good cards in general, so why not?

I tried to put some gold tricolor cards in, but I regretted it after just one day. Damn, they are tempting but they rarely end up in the pool of somebody who cares about them.

On an unrelated note, my LGS just changed owner. The new one likes the idea of cubing and might help me to find a group of regular drafters. Looks like I am finally going to build this IRL, yay!

 

[Alphez]

I just came home from my first actual Cube draft with my own list.
It was simply awesome, I loved every aspect of the experience!

We managed to gather 8 people, which was my target number. All were reasonably experienced players, but with varying skill levels. They all seemed to enjoy the draft quite a lot, which was the best part of it all.

We had these decks:

- BRw Aristocrats (me, winner)
- UWb Flash/Blink control (our local pro, taking 2nd place)
- Monored aggro
- URb good stuff control
- WB graveyard recursion/life pay
- BGw Pod
- Naya +1/+1 counters midrange
- a UBG deck I didn't get to see play. I asked, but the guy just said it was an awful deck and refused to say more

I love the fact that a few archetypes were spotted right away. Hopefully the remaining ones will show up very soon. Regardless, I am happy that most players managed to draft a synergy-driven deck instead of a pile of good cards. Being their very first experience with my list, I am impressed!

We agreed on waiting a few weeks before making any change to the list, so that everybody can get more acquainted with it and be able to draft better/give informed feedback. The opinions the players expressed today varied wildly, so I can't really take them into account yet (like, somebody wanted Karakas and Show and Tell in the list while somebody else considered Bloodsoaked Champion broken).
In general, though, comments were very positive and I think we will very likely manage to repeat the draft soon and often. The guys acknowledged that cubing is quite different from normal draft sets, since most cards are at least playable and this makes both drafting and deck construction more difficult. Some of them expressed the wish to draft often in order to learn quickly how to adapt to this. What more can I ask for?

Other things I noticed:

- the two Conspiracy cards in the list were quite appreciated, especially Lore Seeker.
- nobody complained about me breaking singleton!
- I am a bit surprised by how underplayed blue and green were. I expected them to be very powerful!
- mana fixing was quite a high priority and most players promptly recognised that. Like, I snatched 4 fetchlands but couldn't get more than a single shockland, so I was forced to pick City of Brass in order to mitigate the problem. Still, I think that at 405 I don't need more lands than I have and I don't want to add artifact fixers. I am totally fine with my players having to prioritise their mana.
- if we do end up drafting very often, I might need to go up to 450 cards in order to increase variety and variance. But that is definitely a first-world problem.

I won the draft partly because I had the obvious advantage of knowing my list; still, at least 3 of the games I won were decided by topdecks. One game vs. the UWb Blink deck I won solely because my opponent felt overly confident and played his Silumgar's Command very aggressively: this allowed me to steal the win with Zealous Conscripts + Goblin Bombardment the next turn.

I close by sharing my most awesome play.
My board was Goblin Bombardment, Xathrid Necromancer and Phyrexian Metamorph copying the Necromancer. Both creatures were tapped.
Opponent attacked with Thundermaw Hellkite, I cast Undying Evil on the Metamorph and sac'd it to Bombardment. It came back as an undying copy of the Hellkite, killing it in battle and surviving. I also gained a couple tokens from the exchange.
Of course my opponent cast an overloaded Mizzium Mortars in his second main phase, resetting all of my hard work; but still, that play made my day!

The list is here, as usual. Quite a few changes took place since I last updated this thread. I am eager to read your comments, as usual!

 

[Alphez]

Just finished my second draft with this Cube. I want to keep a little log of how the first few drafts go, so that I can re-read everything when making an update. Also, I guess it would help anybody who feels like sharing an opinion on this.

This time we were only 6 people. We had these decks:

- URb spells-matter aggro (winner) no Prowess, but Delver of Secrets, Young Pyromancer, Runechanter's Pike, Spellheart Chimera etc.
- Rw Sligh, super fast (2nd)
- GBw Pod
- WBr wide aggro
- WBg midrange, no particular strategy but a couple of ways to use the graveyard as a resource
- UGw flash control (me, 0-3. lol, I wasn't in a great shape tonight)

I started the draft with the intention of forcing one of my intended archetypes, in order to help the playgroup to discover them draft after draft. Aristocrats was off-limits for the sole reason that I already drafted it the previous time and I wanted to highlight another deck.
So I proceeded to pick a P1P1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride with the intention of putting together a +1/+1 counters deck. Unfortunately I didn't get passed many cards that played into that strategy, but I saw a lot of blue bombs. You can't really avoid playing blue when you get a Mystic Confluence as your third pick, right? I also got to snatch Snapcaster Mage, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Fact or Fiction, Treasure Cruise, Mystic Snake. Basically my deck ended up being a bunch of blue bombs, counterspells and flash creatures, with green for acceleration (I had 3 dorks and Harrow) and some utilities like Fauna Shaman and Sylvan Library, and with a tiny white splash for Detention Sphere, Sunblast Angel and Hallowed Spiritkeeper. My biggest problem was that I didn't have too many removal spells and most creatures were relatively small.

I faced both the red-based aggro decks and they were way too fast for me. I desperately needed to keep my dorks on board in the first turns and I obviously failed, and that alone was a recipe for disaster. Add a couple misplays on my part...
Round 3 I faced the WBg midrange deck, which was slow enough to let me do something more. The games were more balanced, but I still lost game 3 without doing much. He had even mulled at 4! I made some serious misplays that game, but I also flooded horribly.

Impressions:
- Hallowed Spiritkeeper is love. Hallowed Spiritkeeper is life. The rest of the playgroup didn't understand it yet, but I swear to my new master
- red is probably the strongest colour in my Cube. It won the previous draft and today it powered the two best decks
- although people will hardly build a full graveyard-centric deck, the graveyard is a very important resource in my Cube. Pretty much every deck exploited it, somehow. I was not happy to see a Samurai of the Pale Curtain on the other side of the table, and that is probably the crappiest piece of graveyard hate that I run
- I might need to add some fatties. I am probably a bit light in that department, because I just don't like battlecruiser Magic. When one of your players drafts Entomb and Unburial Rites but decides not to play them for lack of good targets, there might be a problem.
- after only 2 drafts, most of the themes/subthemes I tried to include were identified and used. Sometimes they were not the focus of a whole deck, but still they were used as components of the final 40s
- Dimir and Simic (and Gruul, to a lesser extent) are the colour pairs that I am most unhappy with, at the moment. They lack a satisfying identity and they are underused/underperforming. Dimir didn't give birth to any deck yet. Gruul only appeared in a Naya deck, where red was just a spash IIRC. My main Simic theme, flash control, was the beating heart of my deck today and it proved to be a very poor choice (despite my having most of the bombs that blue has to offer in my Cube)
- so far, green seems to be the worst colour
- my Cube is pretty fast. The Rw Sligh could, and did, win as early as turn 4. I might need to boost control a bit
- I need to cut some cards with multiple specific-mana costs. There are a bit too many for my liking
- I want to see how many players show up on average. If we reach 8 often, I will definitely up the Cube's size to 450. Otherwise it will stay at 405.

So, well, I have mixed feelings. I am a bit disappointed by the failure of the Simic theme, because I really liked it in theory. But if I 0-3'd with such a deck, it might mean something. Green in general is a bit uninteresting. I think that the +1/+1 theme, which is one of the major green themes, is quite underwhelming: there are cards that use +1/+1 counters and are strong enough to be used in any deck, but the reward cards for the theme don't seem to be rewarding enough. Maybe I should focus the colour on ramp; that would also justify the inclusion of additional fatties. Dunno.

Of course it's a bit early to draw conclusions. As I wrote in my previous post, I want to draft this exact list at least 5 times before making any change. The final size I will settle on, in particular, is a very important factor that ATM is still up in the air.
I hope we can make these 3 more drafts soon, because I can't wait!

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

If you have the deck lists, they might be interesting to see. I do question the idea of 'splashing' two cards with double white in their costs though. I've never really understood the whole simic flash control thing. I think it probably only works your environment is slow enough that your counters can catch up. Maybe the cards individually aren't that bad but I wonder if it's a deck by itself?

Re green - it does seem very much like counters and ramp doesn't it? I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that there's a big gap between the good and bad cards that interact with counters and some of it might need dialing back a bit more. You have a little bit of graveyard support for green, perhaps something that you can dial up a bit.

Re red, how comfortable do you feel with red decks being able to win by turn 4? Your red section is very much focused on aggro, with some support for aristocrats style. Perhaps you could dilute the red aggro down a bit by trying to have cards that other themes and archetypes might find more welcoming? You have spells matter, but that's pretty aggro focused as well.

Re dimir, your guild cards are just generic good stuff spells, perhaps that might be a place to start? What do you want dimir to do? Control? Sacrifice? You should be able to build a good control deck atm. There's a simic thread if you search for it which has a lot of discussion with what you could do with simic which is probably worth a look. Good luck with gruul, I don't think anybody has particularly 'solved it' other than grrr, beatdown, which probably is supported by your red cards at the moment. I've got some hopes for a land matters theme with OGW, but need to see the rest of the set and at what power level it would comfortably sit.

 

[Alphez]

If you have the deck lists, they might be interesting to see. I do question the idea of 'splashing' two cards with double white in their costs though.

Unfortunately I have no decklists. I generally ask players to remove basics and put everything back in the box themselves. I do question all the players about their deck, but that is not enough to compile full decklists.

I was also a bit concerned with the double-white mana costs. The problem is that, as I said, I was light in removals and I couldn't give up Sunblast Angel. My rationale was that both the Angel and the Spiritkeeper are to be played as late as possible, so the mana cost was not so much of a restriction. Moreover, I had a manabase with 2x Windswept Heath, 1x Hallowed Fountain, 1x Temple Garden, 1x Seaside Citadel, 1x Birds of Paradise, 1x Noble Hierarch, 1x Honored Hierarch, 1x Harrow. This, together with the amount of card draw/filtering that I had, reassured me that the white splash was doable. And most of the times I had no problems with white, I'd say. Only one game was problematic in this regard, IIRC.

...and by the way: boy, is Honored Hierarch disappointing! Such a crap card.

I've never really understood the whole simic flash control thing. I think it probably only works your environment is slow enough that your counters can catch up. Maybe the cards individually aren't that bad but I wonder if it's a deck by itself?

Well I really liked the idea. The problem is that you need a very tight deck, and even then you might not succeed if your Cube is fast. I think you are spot-on on this. It makes me sad, but this theme is on the verge of being chopped. I will see how the next drafts go.

Re green - it does seem very much like counters and ramp doesn't it? I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that there's a big gap between the good and bad cards that interact with counters and some of it might need dialing back a bit more. You have a little bit of graveyard support for green, perhaps something that you can dial up a bit.

Well there's also Pod, and support cards for other themes. But yes, it's probably an underwhelming colour compared to the competition. I think that green's problems might be linked to the fact that Simic and Gruul are not so successful. Again, I want to draft some more before coming to conclusions, but ATM I am considering cutting the +1/+1 theme (which I was never a big fan of) along with the flash control theme. If I do so, I might make Simic the ramp guild (which is something I don't like, but it should also solve the problem of not having enough fatties to reanimate). Gruul, I don't know yet: I like the Fires archetype, but Wildfire is also an option. Or maybe something like Landfall, that would have interesting consequences on my Selesnya section as well. I don't know yet.

Re red, how comfortable do you feel with red decks being able to win by turn 4? Your red section is very much focused on aggro, with some support for aristocrats style. Perhaps you could dilute the red aggro down a bit by trying to have cards that other themes and archetypes might find more welcoming? You have spells matter, but that's pretty aggro focused as well.

I actually didn't expect red to be so efficient. I even cut all the 1-mana 3-damage spells (with the exception of Collateral Damage, which I think has enough of a drawback to be allowed to exist). I am inclined to think that red's efficiency is actually a function of my painful manabase and of my attempt to preemptively avoid a midrange-fest by having very few good stand-alone threats. I might trim some numbers in red, but I think that if green mans up red will be put back in its place.

The turn-4 win occurred only once. I didn't see the game, but I think the opponent had its faults: it was a GBw Pod deck, but it had no mana dorks because I drafted all the good ones and it included a number of cards with restrictive mana costs. I imagine the red deck opened with a Goblin Guide, Pod had no turn-1 play and was forced to take abundant damage from his manabase in order to drop something in the following turns. The red deck was probably able to keep the pressure up in the following turns and sealed the deal with a Hellrider or a Char.

Re dimir, your guild cards are just generic good stuff spells, perhaps that might be a place to start? What do you want dimir to do? Control? Sacrifice? You should be able to build a good control deck atm.

Dimir should be a control pair that takes advantage of the graveyard, sometimes by reanimating stuff, sometimes by delving. The occasional tempo/aggro deck should also be possible. To be honest, Silumgar's Command was an all-star in our first draft, but it was pretty much the only UB card in a base-UW deck. Tasigur obviously sees play. The other Dimir cards, not so much.

 

[Alphez]

Back from draft number 3, we were 6 players with the following decks:

- Rb Sligh (3-0)
- 4c Pod (no Blue)
- UWG control
- UBW Flash control
- BGu Aristocrats (me, 0-3 again, lol)
- UWB goodstuff midrange (0-3)

This draft pretty much confirmed the impressions I had with the previous one. Specifically:
- red needs to be nerfed quite a bit, while Green needs to be made more interesting (and it needs more fatties, too)
- I will try to push ramp and reanimator strategies a bit. Ramp should become an integral part of Gruul and Simic identities, which are the colour pairs that struggled the most so far (while Dimir is in a better shape than I thought)
- I need more Disenchant effects

I wanted to draft 5 times before making changes, but at this point I am quite confident that we identified a few issues that need to be addressed. People are already sick of playing, and invariably losing, vs. Sligh. It's true that today the Sligh guy was basically the only one playing red (Pod only had a tiny splash), so he was passed every red card in the draft. Still, I think it is only good to tone red down a bit.
Back to the Excel sheet!

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

If you were going to draft primarily red, do you think you can reasonably draft anythig other than a straight aggro deck? Do you need to try to diversify red a bit?