Chris Taylor
Contributor
Seems fine.
Card/Deck Artifact/Enchantment destruction
- Thread starter Chris Taylor
- Start date
harrow, meet bramblecrush 
Instant
Destroy target noncreature permanent. Its controller may search his or her library up to two basic land cards and put them onto the battlefield, then shuffle his or her library.
Instant
Destroy target noncreature permanent. Its controller may search his or her library up to two basic land cards and put them onto the battlefield, then shuffle his or her library.
Why not a land that sacs to destroy artifacts? The problem with artifacts is they're hard to interact with - just like lands are. If Wasteland is the right card for that job, maybe some kind of artifact analogue would solve this problem? I think a correctly developed card like this could be run as a 4-of or something and might really solve the problem. I think I might try this. Vedalken Shackles can come back!
Edit: wow it looks like I took out Mimic Vat and Opposition too. I guess this card should hit enchantments too. Maybe like, sac or , sac. What do you think?
Edit: wow it looks like I took out Mimic Vat and Opposition too. I guess this card should hit enchantments too. Maybe like
, sac or , sac. What do you think?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Probably 2 sac?
Possible problems:
1) Will you get the same tempo you get from killing a land?
2) Will you have as many targets? Will they be played as much?
Possible problems:
1) Will you get the same tempo you get from killing a land?
2) Will you have as many targets? Will they be played as much?
True, it's not going to be always good like Wasteland, but the point is still you'll be totally happy to play one. The downside is not huge if there's no targets.
I wonder... it basically just turns your opponent's artifacts into bad land-destruction spells, and there aren't even enough artifacts in most cubes that you can actually bait the activation and then slam your game winner. It seems fine but I wish there were some more to it.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Well we could just go hog wild and do the inevitable bramblecrush land. Now if that can be justified at , , Sac, We'd have a surefire winner
, , Sac, We'd have a surefire winner
I think you guys are really underestimating the potential of a Disenchant land. There was a brief period of time that Mystifying Maze was Standard-playable, and that card tied up five of your mana each turn to take out a single attacker. The versatility of a land / spell split card more than makes up for the opportunity cost of playing it, especially when it doesn't even cost a spell slot in your deck.
I'd happily play a Disenchant land even it were, , Sac.
I'd happily play a Disenchant land even it were
, , Sac.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Also reading that bramblecrush land over made me throw up in my mouth a bit for how old cube mindset it sounds.
"Well, no deck in my cube can beat jitte, but they also can't beat moat or volrath's stronghold, so let's hope to god that wotc makes more vindicate variants."
"Well, no deck in my cube can beat jitte, but they also can't beat moat or volrath's stronghold, so let's hope to god that wotc makes more vindicate variants."
This was my initial approach, but after my first draft the players wanted more utility, specifically, artifact and enchantment removal. Now I like having a little bit of enchant/artifact removal and allowing the power of the enchant/artifacts to tick up a bit.
Here's everything I run, currently, that can deal with enchantments or artifacts (not counting counters):
I think I want every card in the cube to be main-deckable. Currently, I think this is case. The reason? Signets. Everybody's got 'em so a maindeck Smash to Smithereens makes sense. Of course, signets are on my watch list. If I take them out I may adjust my plans.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I kinda forgot about trygon predator
So I've actually abandoned the initial idea of this thread and just decided to take out all the problem artifacts and enchantments.
The problem with signets is they make control decks a turn faster, and red is (usually) the only color that can keep up with that. They're fine, but keep their numbers low is usully what works
So I've actually abandoned the initial idea of this thread and just decided to take out all the problem artifacts and enchantments.
The problem with signets is they make control decks a turn faster, and red is (usually) the only color that can keep up with that. They're fine, but keep their numbers low is usully what works
What happens if we only put signets in for colours that don't want to durdle?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Then basically each one taps for colorless for the control decks
I prefer the talismans anyways
I prefer the talismans anyways
And they're hard to interact with because they're not granular. If you include Indrik Stomphowler so that players can incidentally destroy signets to punish greedy mana bases, then you're also hurting the players that want to make the Big Sexy Artifacts deck. Because it's no harder to kill Phyrexian Dreadnought than it is to kill Boros Signet. In fact, it's easier, because you can also use Doom Blade and StP etc.
You can't deal damage to them - even though, unlike enchantments, they're tangible objects! Just like creatures. Which can be smashed. Green and red are for the most part the anti-arti colors... and they're also generally the highest-power-creatures colors.
If artifacts could just be straight-up smashed with damage like planeswalkers can, red and green would be great at it and they could have all sorts of ways to interact in a granular fashion. Stomphowler could be a 4/4 with "unblockable when attacking artifacts" or "when CARD enters the B, deals 4 damage to target artifact". Any red burn would, in a pinch, double as arti removal. (and it already does, for arti creatures)
But that's not gonna happen so w/e. That's "if we could go back in time and rewrite the ground rules" territory like maro's Instant Sorceries.
In the meantime, I might go all FSR and tweak things... some sort of rule that takes cards which say "and, free bonus: destroy artifact while you're at it!" and soft-gate them to be "artifact must have cmc <= the cmc of this card". The Charms, the Commands, and Naturalize-like cards would remain ungated and work on anything.
CML
Contributor
I think you guys are really underestimating the potential of a Disenchant land. There was a brief period of time that Mystifying Maze was Standard-playable, and that card tied up five of your mana each turn to take out a single attacker. The versatility of a land / spell split card more than makes up for the opportunity cost of playing it, especially when it doesn't even cost a spell slot in your deck.
I'd happily play a Disenchant land even it were
now even accounting for how this was a standard format that revolved around attacking with one creature (a titan, say, or a bird with a sword), to the point where freaking tumble magnet was good, this is an excellent point. tumble magnet! jesus christ. anyway, i agree the disenchant land is probably OP. let's take a deep breath and realize that lands that have marginal effects are extremely powerful. who wants to pay 1B to put a creature on top of their library? nobody. but when it comes with a land, it becomes great. i guess the closest analogue to the disenchant land is mouth of ronom? but it's certainly better. 4 and a snow is expensive and weird. they're asking you to pay that activation cost in scandinavian currency.
beyond that i look at a lot of the posts here and i see a bunch of cards that are not maindeckable and i think a lot of these cards are just trying too hard. nature's claim and solemn offering and bramblecrush are bad cards! there are very few environments where these are playable and the ones where they are, i dunno, they are quite good. artifacts and enchantments are inherently problematic design-wise because artifacts can be played by anyone and non-creature permanents are hard to kill, but i think it's fine that artifacts and enchantments are hard to interact with, it gives you a certain direction for your design of those sections. here are some ways to kill these cards in my cube
as well as temporary solutions like
anyway nobody took cards like unravel the aether or even duergar hedge-mage when i put them in so there you have it. as you can see red gets nothing but red probably doesn't want much of this anyway, who wants to draft manic vandal except in power cube where it just wrecks everyone? that card is kind of like Dig Through Time in that the dumber the environment is the stronger the card is. it fits in bad environments like how Dig fits in bad decks. at any rate, i put in pretty much all the stuff that can kill artifacts or enchantments that is maindeckable and justifiable via power level too
Do you guys have experience with these three cards?
Those are all cards that have an alternate effect with alternate costs to their naturalize effect. I find those to be the three best cards to put into ones cube that only serve the purpose of having enough art/ench removal and I'm still thinking about adding them.
Those are all cards that have an alternate effect with alternate costs to their naturalize effect. I find those to be the three best cards to put into ones cube that only serve the purpose of having enough art/ench removal and I'm still thinking about adding them.
Do you guys have experience with these three cards?
Those are all cards that have an alternate effect with alternate costs to their naturalize effect. I find those to be the three best cards to put into ones cube that only serve the purpose of having enough art/ench removal and I'm still thinking about adding them.
no experience with the Kor, but both Wickerbough Elder and Forsake the Worldly have been great for me; both have seen maindeck play and are well liked with the group
I think Kor is the weakest of the three, but they are all very serviceable, and their stock climbs the more "must answer" artifact and enchantments you run. Forsake the Worldly has been great in testing and the only one I have no experience with in an actual draft. Cycling makes cards substantially better though and I have no doubt this card is worthy. Wickerbough Elder is very solid as the body post disenchant is sizable, and not useless pre. Kor Sanctifiers is really the only one that is marginal without a target. The third toughness does make it a decent blocker, but you generally feel pretty sad casting it for 2W. Flying would have made that card really solid. I used to think the kicker versus an ETB trigger was a strict downgrade, but having a reduced cost for just a body is nice and occasionally upside.
Wickerbough Elder was first-pickable in the early days of my cube, when it had a high artifact count and a couple were must removes (like Swords). It's very maindeckable and my favorite piece of artifact/enchantment removal.
I'm cubing Forsake the Worldly, but no experiences yet with it - though it looks great.
I ran for a long time Solemn Offering, and ended up removing it just to push aggro in the control matchup a little. It's very serviceable.
Krosan Grip is also sweet. The Split Second is quite often relevant - picking on Nevinyrral's Disk, Oblivion Stone, Legacy's Allure, Shrine of Burning Rage, Walking Ballista, etc, besides dodging counterspells, bounce and others.
Apart from that, I run the classics.
Other cards I've run and would bring back if I needed more hate:
I'm cubing Forsake the Worldly, but no experiences yet with it - though it looks great.
I ran for a long time Solemn Offering, and ended up removing it just to push aggro in the control matchup a little. It's very serviceable.
Krosan Grip is also sweet. The Split Second is quite often relevant - picking on Nevinyrral's Disk, Oblivion Stone, Legacy's Allure, Shrine of Burning Rage, Walking Ballista, etc, besides dodging counterspells, bounce and others.
Apart from that, I run the classics.
Other cards I've run and would bring back if I needed more hate:
Might be worth running the populate disenchant if you're adding a bunch of embalm and eternalize?
The problem with those Naturalizes and Disenchants is that they only serve one purpose alone: being artifact/enchantment removal. If your opponent doesn't play any then those are dead cards and I don't like to put cards into my cube that aren't maindeckable. Same goes for Sundering Growth as it has to target an artifact/enchantment to populate.
I think I'll just go with Forsake the Worldly and Wickerbough Elder as I already play some artifact/enchantment removal in the form of:
I think I'll just go with Forsake the Worldly and Wickerbough Elder as I already play some artifact/enchantment removal in the form of:
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
One card I've really loved is
The basic landcycling is a very good alternative mode, and exiling up to two problem permanents is very good against recursion. Plus, instant speed means some sweet "in reaction" blowout potential (in fact I've used it to exile a vehicle in response to the crew trigger at a very opportune moment).
The basic landcycling is a very good alternative mode, and exiling up to two problem permanents is very good against recursion. Plus, instant speed means some sweet "in reaction" blowout potential (in fact I've used it to exile a vehicle in response to the crew trigger at a very opportune moment).
I don't understand why every card should be equally maindeckable. Good sideboard cards are an integral and necessary part of MtG. Also, creature removal can be useless against decks with (almost) no creatures or such, so where's the difference? And when you run enough artifacts and enchantments, Naturalize becomes a card I'm not unhappy to maindeck if I'm a little short on playables. I don't support many artifact or enchantment decks, bit a deck with 0 targets is almost nonexistent here.
At the moment I'm happily running these permanent answers:
Disenchant
Banishing Light
Oblivion Ring
Kor Sanctifiers
Faith's Fetters
Confiscate
Duress
Mesmeric Fiend
Reckless Reveler
Pillage
Abrade
Naturalize
Reclamation Sage
Wickerbough Elder
Indrik Stomphowler
Angel of Despair
Tidehollow Sculler
At the moment I'm happily running these permanent answers:
Disenchant
Banishing Light
Oblivion Ring
Kor Sanctifiers
Faith's Fetters
Confiscate
Duress
Mesmeric Fiend
Reckless Reveler
Pillage
Abrade
Naturalize
Reclamation Sage
Wickerbough Elder
Indrik Stomphowler
Angel of Despair
Tidehollow Sculler
Expecting drafters to pick sideboard cards consistently is asking a lot of players who are already besieged by options in a cubing session and imho put an unnecessary burden on your drafters that can be avoided by running more flexible cards or less potent artifacts/enchantments. If you have must-answer enchantments in a format, I don't think players should be punished for not knowing that and passing on Naturalize / Disenchant to pick up a more enjoyable-looking card or even (Gods be good) a piece of fixing.
I also don't think it's the same as drafting creature removal and facing against a decks with "(almost) no creatures" because a creatureless deck is rarely viable, and a deck that is creature-light tends to be relying on a few key utility or game-winning creatures, which justify maindecked creature removal just fine.
Of course, of the cards you've listed, the only cards I would seriously consider swapping out would be the least flexible/interesting of the lot: Disenchant, Reckless Reveler, and Naturalize. All your other options seem dandy enough to me! And in those slots you could easily run Cast Out/Forsake the Worldly, Ingot Chewer, and Brutalizer Exarch and wind up with them being more reliably drafted and maindecked, as well as being overall (imho) more interesting and versatile cards. Of course, at the end of the day, it's your format.. but I don't think the power level of your artifacts/enchantments is really so menacing to require such potent and single-minded tools to reign them in.