I've been abused, harassed and assaulted by guys who learned to take feminine men as a joke, not to see them as human, because of heavy gender norm upbringings. If I had a nickel for every time I've been "playfully" called a pussy/sissy or threatening by a guy defending their own harmlessness while being upset that I don't fit their gender rolls, I'd buy out ancestral recalls. Like, there's not even anything wrong with being like a masculine guy, but pushing it on everyone is the reason a transgender woman is murdered by a man every 28 hours. People call it vicious because it gets extremely vicious. There's a world of difference between fitting into gender norms while respecting people who don't and pushing those norms on everyone else while encouraging hate against people who are different. I don't think you understand the difference between these things and why the latter is a problem that hurts a lot of people. I do recommend trying to understand though because I really do not appreciate the latter.
Card/Deck Creature lands
- Thread starter Eric Chan
- Start date
You should probably think about what's actually upsetting you. Is is the fact that feminine guys and trans women exist? Is it the fact that they want acceptance and rights? Because they don't want to listen to your manmusic? You're not being oppressed just because they want respect. The hater in this situation is the one who can't put aside their humor to be welcoming towards people who are different. You should probably think about what really caused you to leave the feminism scene and where the toxicity really was. To clarify, I'm not trying to be a dick or call you a bad person, I'm saying this because I think there's a lot of learning you can benefit from doing. : /
On topic: Factories isn't bad. Its about the same as creature lands, both three syllables and pretty to-the-point.
On topic: Factories isn't bad. Its about the same as creature lands, both three syllables and pretty to-the-point.
I'm no stranger to that type of bullying but I can't imagine facing it as an adult because it would be absurd. And sure you probably had it worse, I got away easy because my counterstrikes hit harder, faster and sneakier (maybe my opponents were weaker). I look nothing like the sort of traditional chauvinist male, but I think that their culture is amusing and I wouldn't want to take it away. I just think that there are many ways to fight within established frameworks instead of tearing everything potencially hostile down to the ground (though I believed this to be right at some point). The challenges I have faced has made me who I am and I am stronger and better for it, my skin is pretty thick. Some of the most beneficial lessons I have learned have been very offensive to my sensibilities at one time or another. Beyond that I know from my experience that a lot of feminists and sjws aren't interested in tearing down the framework of oppression, it's more like remodeling. Friendly censorship, othering of previously dominant groups no real backlash against biggotry and fear of questioning minorities. Once again, I'm kind of a minority were I am at, it's like the pc-capitol of the world.
I do not think that transgender women are murdered because of chauvanism, a lot of people are frustrated and angry, turning that frustration away from transgender women won't solve the underlying problem which I believe mostly stems from socio-economic inequality. It's like treating a symptom of a disease.
I do understand but I do not agree. Your personal experience is certainly valuable and I am sorry that you have been hurt. But I wouldn't want my life any other way, and I want a chance for people to turn out like me, for that to happen there must be comedy and we must be allowed to speak our minds. I think there is a common ground to be found, I doubt we will find it here though. It would have to be a larger cultural thing.
I do not think that transgender women are murdered because of chauvanism, a lot of people are frustrated and angry, turning that frustration away from transgender women won't solve the underlying problem which I believe mostly stems from socio-economic inequality. It's like treating a symptom of a disease.
I do understand but I do not agree. Your personal experience is certainly valuable and I am sorry that you have been hurt. But I wouldn't want my life any other way, and I want a chance for people to turn out like me, for that to happen there must be comedy and we must be allowed to speak our minds. I think there is a common ground to be found, I doubt we will find it here though. It would have to be a larger cultural thing.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
We'll I've certainty been around misandrist feminists, that statement is pretty brutal for trans people. Everyone wants to be accepted, feel accepted, and be understood fairly. You can appreciate that on some level, as I'm guessing you had some experience(s) with misandry that played a role in you becoming critical of feminism.
Imagine what that would be like, however, if you had literally no where to go to escape those experiences, and how stressful that would be, up to and including painful experiences with rejection from your own family. This is serious stuff.
Some of my clients are lower income individuals from the trans community, and typically I am defending them in eviction proceedings, usually motivated by animus on the part of the landlord, with homelessness and unemployment being the consequence if we lose.
Not to get all serious on everyone, but this is a particular area where more empathy is badly needed.
For queer folk, that type of bullying is something we face no matter how old we get. I don't think I see the world the same way you do because I don't want to fight back nor do I want to see people as opponents. Life is already tough when you have a board state covered in allies. Making it an 8-billion vs 1 archenemy game would be a disaster. Anyway, I am pretty heavily involved in feminism at this point I guess and frankly you've either only seen completely different groups or just can't see the positive change. Oppression is being destroyed, I've actively been a part of it. Hell, a group I'm part of got our local government to force a boarding school to stop abusing transgender students.
Chauvinistic culture is like a penis. Have it, yes. Whip it around my face, no. Get together with people who want to appreciate it, I don't care. Making people not whip it around is oppressing nobody.
Transgender women are always killed by men. And very brutally, often beaten well past death to the point where you can't even recognize them and the guys often go on some rant along the lines of trans women stealing/threatening their manhood. Its largely a power thing really and its tied to the aforementioned penises. (Suggested reading)
I also want to point out that I really don't want to live in a world where hurtful comedy is okay. Some things like black jokes and casual rape jokes just aren't funny to people who aren't part of the problem. And that special brand of MANhumor is another category. Most of the shit I've gotten in my life was caused directly by the idea that a "man in a dress" (aka trans women) is a joke, not a human. Most people I have ever met believe this. Seriously, if you do enjoy certain types of humor that hurt groups of people, at least leave them to yourself and friends outside of groups where people are going to get hurt.
Chauvinistic culture is like a penis. Have it, yes. Whip it around my face, no. Get together with people who want to appreciate it, I don't care. Making people not whip it around is oppressing nobody.
Transgender women are always killed by men. And very brutally, often beaten well past death to the point where you can't even recognize them and the guys often go on some rant along the lines of trans women stealing/threatening their manhood. Its largely a power thing really and its tied to the aforementioned penises. (Suggested reading)
I also want to point out that I really don't want to live in a world where hurtful comedy is okay. Some things like black jokes and casual rape jokes just aren't funny to people who aren't part of the problem. And that special brand of MANhumor is another category. Most of the shit I've gotten in my life was caused directly by the idea that a "man in a dress" (aka trans women) is a joke, not a human. Most people I have ever met believe this. Seriously, if you do enjoy certain types of humor that hurt groups of people, at least leave them to yourself and friends outside of groups where people are going to get hurt.
-grumbles- ugh I didn't even read that far...
"I also like my women, women and my men, men" is an explicit admission that you can't stand the very existence of transgender and non-gender conforming people. That statement basically means "I only want people to be manly men and feminine women." That is a declaration of hate towards people who happen to be different and have done nothing wrong. Its like saying you can't stand an entire race of people. At the very least, I would like to politely ask you to rethink that statement while I still accept your existence.
"I also like my women, women and my men, men" is an explicit admission that you can't stand the very existence of transgender and non-gender conforming people. That statement basically means "I only want people to be manly men and feminine women." That is a declaration of hate towards people who happen to be different and have done nothing wrong. Its like saying you can't stand an entire race of people. At the very least, I would like to politely ask you to rethink that statement while I still accept your existence.
I feel like I might have come off as insensitive here, so I just wanted to respond to this to clarify what I meant. I think it is completely reasonable to remove harmful words from vocabulary if their primary meaning is hurtful. I apologize in advance for my use of language here, but it's necessary for illustration: "faggot" is not a commonly used word. I want to be perfectly clear that I am not lamenting the loss of this word, and I DO blame the haters for this, not the victims.
Consider this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs
Straight away, it turns out "apple" is an ethnic slur. "Apple" and "man" are much more in the same level of common usage than "faggot." This is what I mean when I say commonly used words. There are plenty of other words like that on the list. Asking the public to refrain from using all of those words altogether seems like a tall order.
All I'm trying to say is that for commonly used words, it seems like the context in which it's used is important. The word "man" can be used in a way that's just as hurtful as any other more specific slur, and the perpetrators of that are horrible people.
Just so we're on clearer ground here, I'm at the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign, and I am perfectly conversant in the ideas behind what they're doing. And I wasn't talking about their LGBT housing set up, I was talking about their language and careful PR control because somebody said something dumb and racist on Facebook. I did say I was diverging even more from the off-offtopic topic before I started that paragraph. They could have gender inclusive housing without tepid PR, and they could have tepid PR without gender inclusive housing. The only thing they accomplished by responding to a racist facebook page was giving attention to an asshole. That was a minor incident. But they've certainly crossed the bridge into policing things too heavily when they revoked an offer for an assistant professorship because the candidate (Salaita) said some offensive things about Israelis. Now that was probably due to donor pressure and I doubt his offer would've been revoked if he had said something offensive about... I dunno... Norwegians. Ironically though, I'd bet this guy probably would've supported their actions if they had revoked an offer for an assistant professorship because somebody had said something offensive about Palestinians.
I support greater equality and am not attacking any project of greater equality between humans (if one was to attempt to lump so many things under one rough heading); I'm trying to make a point about how even ideas with good intentions and meant to do good things can spiral a bit out of control. In this case, I think the idea that has spiraled out of control involves a focus on enforcing the "correct" thought and language that in some environments (Universities mostly) has ended up stifling the exchange of ideas and open debate and led to some rather bizarre ordering of priorities. I'm not saying there are no gains, but the costs strike me as starting to rise quickly as things change from how things are here on Riptide (where I think things are fine) to how they are at a university (where I wouldn't say anything in public on essentially any political topic unless I thought it was worth being fired over). The manland thing doesn't really bother me either way; I'm on board with calling them wakelands. I see no problem with how meta this discussion may get even if that seems silly to some people. Mostly I responded because I think you and safra and probably some other people I forgot about are reading things as too black and white and thus may be missing out on what other people are saying. To dismiss somebody out of hand because they "just can't see it" and someone is "unlikely to ever understand [it]" is unfortunate because nothing is learned or gained.
Would you kindly not assume you know my gender or sexuality when you don't? I'm close enough to cisgendered that that seems the appropriate word, but I'm not heterosexual.
Going back to my divergence from the off-offtopic topic, I'm not expecting them to solve segregation in the city, I'm expecting them to put their money where their mouth is on a topic they would theoretically agree with me about and do something to change the status quo. And I doubt it has anything to do with they'd rather invest money in educating students. Universities haven't increased the number of professors per student for decades, so unsurprisingly, we have people who might do well in their discipline with a little more guidance dropping out because they hate their 300 person intro class. I would argues Universities aren't liberal or even progressive in any real sense. If they were, they wouldn't be so shitty to their graduate students who are probably half of their teaching force (This is not to say that professors treat grads badly necessarily, but University administration and policy tends to be bad). Universites are more bastions of fashionable ideology and a culture of CYA. In medieval Europe, that ideology was religious and conservative. Now it's something else.
EDIT: AUUUGGGHHHHH like 3 new posts since I started writing this. Oh well
I agree Grillo, I might come off a bit strong, I definitely do not have anything against transpeople.
And Tzenmoroth I didn't mean anything ill towards anyone by that, I was just explaining my preference which is personal to me and which does not imply any ill will towards people outside of it. Kind of like "once you go black you never go back" hopefully isn't meant to spite everyone else.
I'm just worried about the future of culture and speech. I think we might be heading towards better and more socially progressive times, I don't think it is necessary to propel that progress by burning away large parts of our culture in the fueltank and normalising oppressive and dangerous language tools such as censorship and shunning people because of the questions they ask. That's playing right into the hands of the people who would uphold the circumstances in which homelessness and unemployment is rife, we are giving them tools and we are fighting eachother. We must be able to question and joke about every thing, good and bad least we forget why they were good or bad to begin with. I apologize if this seems unnecessarily lofty, but that's my perspective on these things.
And Tzenmoroth I didn't mean anything ill towards anyone by that, I was just explaining my preference which is personal to me and which does not imply any ill will towards people outside of it. Kind of like "once you go black you never go back" hopefully isn't meant to spite everyone else.
I'm just worried about the future of culture and speech. I think we might be heading towards better and more socially progressive times, I don't think it is necessary to propel that progress by burning away large parts of our culture in the fueltank and normalising oppressive and dangerous language tools such as censorship and shunning people because of the questions they ask. That's playing right into the hands of the people who would uphold the circumstances in which homelessness and unemployment is rife, we are giving them tools and we are fighting eachother. We must be able to question and joke about every thing, good and bad least we forget why they were good or bad to begin with. I apologize if this seems unnecessarily lofty, but that's my perspective on these things.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
That was a really wonderful description of some of the problems in academia.
A term I've heard is the "regressive left" where traditional liberal ideas of critical, free debate, are abandoned for enforced, uniform belief.
My general experiences was that people were mixing less, and were self segregating into tribal entities, resentful and mistrustful of one another. Really depressing.
A term I've heard is the "regressive left" where traditional liberal ideas of critical, free debate, are abandoned for enforced, uniform belief.
My general experiences was that people were mixing less, and were self segregating into tribal entities, resentful and mistrustful of one another. Really depressing.
Yeah, I'm really just saying that man used to mean living things puts a bad taste in my mouth. Its not as extreme as slurs of course. Its a minor thing but it does make a difference. I get what you're saying though. Apple isn't even that problematic though since its just used by native Americans who are (understandably) salty towards the people who tried to exterminate them and are still slowly confiscating their land. Its not the kind of thing that destroys a word though. I do agree that it is a word that would be all sorts of resistant to being ruined. Man is also never going away or becoming a slur altogether. People are just disliking some of the more overarching and frankly kinda niche uses of the word.
Hey guys, I've been staying out of this conversation. I have a response typed up that I sent to Eric, but I'm holding off for now.
That said, if anybody is concerned about the dialogue happening here, feel free to send me a PM. From what I can tell people are being civil, despite disagreements, so I'm okay with letting the conversation stand. If anyone feels concerned though, let me know and I will reevaluate.
That said, if anybody is concerned about the dialogue happening here, feel free to send me a PM. From what I can tell people are being civil, despite disagreements, so I'm okay with letting the conversation stand. If anyone feels concerned though, let me know and I will reevaluate.
Reminds me of an article I read yesterday that seems relevant.
https://medium.com/@SeanBlanda/the-other-side-is-not-dumb-2670c1294063#.oewxqgjjd
What I gathered from Wiki was that apple was a term used by one Native American in an attempt to disparage another Native American. Like calling a Black person an oreo or an Asian person a banana. And I think this meaning is pretty problematic because it implies that certain activities and thoughts are for white people (an ever changing and vaguely defined category) and that being nonwhite and still engaging in those activities or thoughts somehow makes you less acceptable.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'm pretty impressed by the restraint shown. There's clearly some different opinions on here, and some posts have been pretty strongly worded, but I don't feel the discussion has escalated. And hey, I learned something from it!
The only thing that bothers me is that a few too many here seem to have been the victim of gender-based harassment. I didn't realize the percentage of assholes on this planet was that high. More people should embrace the "live and let live" principle. Judge people by their character, not by what they are or who they love.
This is a very difficult topic, which is (rightly) sensitive to a lot of people. I have stayed out of it as the danger with the Internet is that it can be hard to articulate a very complex topic when you're not as elequent as you (I) think you are.
Having said that I just wanted to say that in the main this forum is generally full of very cool people, who are elequent, educated and respectful.
Having said that I just wanted to say that in the main this forum is generally full of very cool people, who are elequent, educated and respectful.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That was an excellent read!
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Anyone that comes to this thread though as a resource on lands is just going to be like wtf.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'll be the first person do defend freedom of speech in its entirety. There are a lot of areas like book banning where I would remove censorship in a heartbeat. I firmly believe everyone should be able to say anything that isn't a threat to commit a crime without facing arrest. But that does mean we have the right to vocally disagree and the right to choose who we listen to. With freedom of speech comes the freedom of others to choose not to listen to you. Let's at least keep that in mind, its something people tend to forget and the reason people get shunned. That has nothing to do with censorship, its one of the prices of freedom.
I'll also be the first person to speak out against people who feel the need to speak out against the very existence of groups of people they arbitrarily dislike. Let's be honest, saying you like your men "men" and your women "women" is like saying you like your humans white. Regardless of your intentions, the meaning of that statement is that you don't want people who don't fit into whatever your gender rolls are or whatever your specific idea of a preferable person is. It feels like you already dislike me for how I was born. The statement is deeply disturbing at its core.
If you meant something else by it, feel free to explain.Oh, its problematic, sure. But not the kind of thing that ruins a word. Minorities can't ruin words like the majority can. They're in no position to. The meanings and connotations of words are by their very nature dictated by the majority. You don't see words like cracker getting ruined. If the majority says apple is just an apple then its just an apple.
Creature Land
Land - Thread
: Add 
to your mana pool.: ~ becomes a colorless Trainwreck creature until end of turn. Its still a land.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Creature Land
Land - Thread
Needs a base P/T but I like it. Maybe there's tribal applications for trainwreck in the next set!
Trainwreck tribal will be in the custom meta-cube. Alongside parasite tribal, which will be extremely parasitic. There will also be an entire cycle of GRBS and a Fight Club subtheme.
And that first part is an entirely agreeable position to keep. Though I think we all become better by listening and challenging our worldviews. Putting yourself in someone else's shoes, and trying to do so honestly was largely how past anti-gay bigotry was defeated from what I remember. So when sjw's and feminists of today chose to shut down without honestly trying to understand the other side I sometimes feel like I helped the wrong side win. I understand why they do it though, it is just a major letdown because I thought that we were fighting and winning against the framework of othering. We could all just be people you know?
I'll also be the first person to speak out against people who feel the need to speak out against the very existence of groups of people they arbitrarily dislike. Let's be honest, saying you like your men "men" and your women "women" is like saying you like your humans white. Regardless of your intentions, the meaning of that statement is that you don't want people who don't fit into whatever your gender rolls are or whatever your specific idea of a preferable person is. It feels like you already dislike me for how I was born. The statement is deeply disturbing at its core.
You seem like a good person Tzenmoroth, and it is amazing that this discussion hasn't flipped out yet. However, I think you are reading a bit too much into what I have written. Most people have preferences, and I like a lot of other types of people too. But there is something very funny and pleasing to me about man and woman as stereotypical entities with gender roles and all that. I wouldn't want every person to fit that mold, but I still like it as a plaything so I would like to hold unto it.
Kind of like how the gay lifestyle isn't necessarily threatening to the nuclear family or manliness, we would need like a straight eye for the lgbtq person to show that we aren't all horrible (yes not every gay guy is like that, but that show helped I think). But media today is kind of pushing this cultural warfare angle, so it can't happen like that.