[Design/Discussion] The Spiral

[Grillo_Parlante]

I had a slightly eccentric idea I wanted to run past some people.

I know we had some initial excitement about running the colorless mana eldrazi cards, but (outside of customs) that quickly tapered out, because its practically a 6th color of mana. Its just very difficult to find your colorless mana sources with any degree of consistency.

The graveyard, however, is really good for that; and it certainly ups the power level of cards like life from the loam, which can finally be used to do something truly powerful (and actually calibrated to cube), rather than trying, with mixed successes, to mimic its traditional constructed synergies. The pushed nature of many of the colorless mana cards, even serve to reward the setup.

What if I ran, say a row of pain lands, alongside some of the more interesting colorless mana options?

Specifically, I have




In mind. Having blink rooted in colorless mana helps check a powerful mechanic, while mirrorpool just enables sweet plays. Its also an awesome reward for any kind of land recursion.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Is the idea to 'tutor' for corless sources by milling yourself and picking up the land from the yard?

It's a neat take on the dilemma. Mostly it's matter of enough cards to be able to draft something functional.

How many colorless eldrazi were you thinking of?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Ok, finally have a first draft up.

Sorry about the link confusion: here it is.

After numerous iterations trying to find the right power level, I have 360 cards I am reasonably happy with.

The working draft could be best described as using bouncelands to power an unfair graveyard axis and a fair land interaction axis. Again, the idea is to merge the "fair cube" and "combo cube" concepts by isolating the combo cube portion within the graveyard. This means more protracted games, less BS kills, and more control over anti-combo hate, while still allowing players the ability to ride a johnny built roller coaster. I feel this should be the unique selling point of a graveyard format.

That being said:

1. Familiar combo is in here at the moment, and will probably ultimately have to go for obvious reasons. However there is a lot more symmetrical discard because of the hellbent/madness deck, and I want to see how that goes. There are a few other maybe nutso things too, like cadaverous bloom which might be obnoxious in a BUG shell where you have access to X draw spells.

2. I kind of wanted to experiment with a more retro, old school vibe. I've already tried "reasonably efficient but interestingly conditioned removal" with the penny cube, and I want to expand that concept more to other cards. The Blue bounce has been (I think) toned down considerably, and I've tried to minimize the number of ETB creatures in favor of reasonably efficient bodies that carry some sort of interesting triggered or activated ability.

Spells should be more powerful than creatures, hopefully taking pressure off the ground, and focusing games more on winning via spell effects, rather than spell creature-centric strategies. Basically, this means that creatures that would in the past have been rares, and which would now be generally printed at uncommon, are where I want that focus to be. I don't even have the splicers at the moment (though their inclusion + rusted relic would mean I can layer in an artifact theme).

This is pretty new to me, so input on those cards, or creatures I might have missed, would be nice.

3. There is no bow of nylea, battlefield scrounger, or other recycling effect, other than recycle golem. I have that focus more on spell effects that go on the bottom of the library, thereby making it impossible to deck from self mill.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

lol...I don't even know:

R/G Pure Lands Control from CubeTutor.com

Just pure R/G control, splashing a little white for potential firemane recursion.

Might as well blank all of their removal.

This is why we cut down on the ETB creatures.

 

[whydirt]

Quick thoughts after an initial viewing:

1. Why not just pick one of Sextant/Star/Sphere and run however many you want? I realize that there are slight play differences between them, but if you're already breaking singleton why not just run six of whichever version of you prefer?
2. Thoughts on Codex Shredder as a source of mill that can double as a late-game mana-sink?
3. I love cycling, but man Expunge seems like a terrible place to have it.
4. Tarfire seems odd in a cube without any way to explicitly take advantage of it being a goblin. IMO, there isn't enough density of delirium to make it worth a slot over other options, and if that's your goal I'd almost rather see Seal of Fire in that slot.

Overall it looks fun! I look forward to doing a few test drafts!

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Ugh, I completely forgot about codex shredder. That seems better than the millstone I keep on passing.

Tarfire because I like the art

Adding more delirium was something I was thinking of, but it was kind of a late include.





Keep it in G/W: neat little way to tie white in more with graveyard interactions and self mill. Just need to experiment with slots to seed it into.

In my practice drafts I was a bit too scared to go for:




Maybe I would need to more robustly flesh out an untap theme to justify those cards, with a greater density of those effects + some more in green, and




Green slots are getting really competitive though.

Check this bad boy out:

BUG aggro mill from CubeTutor.com

5 drops are the new 3 drops, but no seriously, lots of fun ways to play this, though I am a zuran orb away from perfection. So many ins and outs to this thing, from value milling to mana ramping to using kage + jolrael as a 1 sided Armageddon.

What I really like is the mill package, and all of the ways it has to build and rebuild a gameplan. Extractor demon is reasonable on its own with skeletal and saproling burst, but demon + kage + life // death can win the game on the spot (especially backed up by a splendid reclamation), and that can always be supplemented by frantic search powered brain freezes and strokes.



is looking like a really fun card

 

[whydirt]

Falkenrath Gorger seems like a bit of a new drafter trap given that there's only one other vampire in red, not that many in black, and the only gold one already has madness.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Yeah, I don't like it either. Not sure if I need another aggressive red 1 though.

R/B Aggro from CubeTutor.com

Probably not?

Made the Seal of fire swaps, as the hellbent deck really wants you casting removal, rather than holding it.

For the same reason, was considering:

Out



In

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

What is this thing, and what does it need // want ?

R/W/G Control from CubeTutor.com

This is like some bizarre parfait deck. I already realized I need more robust red removal for these control decks, and have cut falkenrath gorger and embodiment of fury in favor of flame slash and roast. Will probably cut the second green embodiment as well. Need to find space for magmatic insight, which for some reason isn't here. Also, might need to add 1-2 red x spells. This thing seems like it would be pretty inconsistent.

I think weathered wayfarer and knight of the white orchid can go, since these decks seem to want to be perpetually creatureless of near creatureless.

Kind of messed up in the draft, could have had knightfall combo or the saffi + altar + reveillark combo.

Given the strategic posture of the deck, it probably would have greatly preferred zuran orb to devastating summons.

It plans to deplete its library of lands to use as a resource, and keeping itself from decking via enduring renewal->loaming shaman->altar of dementia. It seems strong once it gets to the point where its depleted its library and is recycling its best spells over and over, but I kind of question its ability to get there.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think the following has to go in black




I think bone shredder should get a slot: not sure about the others. Kind of looking for human or zombie tribal type. Strike leader has poor synergy with the hellbent deck. Don't know what deck toshiro goes into, besides being a generic black value card. Investing mana in queen seems poor.

royal assassin is probably fine? It fills that role of removal attached to a body for slightly more controlling aggro decks.

I cut down on the eggs in the artifact section, since their primary role in this structure is to feed the yard (delirium specifically) while also supporting aggro decks (which I think are fine without too many: reach is pretty good in this format). Went singleton there, adding terrarion, wanderer's twig and traveler's amulet. GY Golem is out due to how vulnerable it is, and added in mindslaver because its a fun card, and a combination of format speed + ramp should make it attainable.

Can go -10 bouncelands, +5 karoo lands, +5 sac/depletion/utility lands (or also run Balduvian trading post/soldevi excavations and be banned from the forum), to have my first singleton format. This might be correct, since I have less ways to disrupt them in this format.

Also Out





In




Collusion is better synergy (and less $$) while traverse provides a higher power incentive for delirium.

Not sure there are UG decks, and the blue creatures seem a bit messy tbh. Probably want




This card also seems bad?



Four mana seems like a lot, for something designed to accrue value over time. The hellbent deck just wants to end the game at this point no? I would need my hellbent deck to be more midrangy I think. Something interested in getting to the midgame, and running




to close out in the late game

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Instead of the karoo's can I recommend



or



If you're looking for land bounce, rather than land doubling.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Made a bunch of changes after the drafts. Took your advice and went with the lairs, which look great, and also the 5 karoo lands. This is now my first singleton format.

Guilds look like this:

RB: Hellbent aggro/hellbent midrange {} extractor mill {} bushwhackers
RG: lands control/midrange ramp {} bushwhackers
RU: spells matter control-burn {} flicker combo
RW: lands control/wide aggro {} double strike
UG: Tempo/ramp {} flicker combo
GB: value self mill {} extractor combo {} land recursion ramp
GW: lands control/ramp midrange {} saffi combo {}double strike
BW: warriors-humans tribal
UB: flyers tempo/control {} living death combo {} library maniac/flick/living death combo {} flicker combo
UW: flyers/control {} flicker combo

The BUG triad looks like the most fun, which is how this usually goes >.> Though RUG and RWU look interesting too.

Most broken interactions revolve around these cards:




Which can be grouped as

1) using untap effects to make large amounts of mana.
2) using mass land reanimation effects with self mill or effects that that turn lands into rituals (note these become better with bouncelands)
3) effects that convert cards in hand into mana or damage

From which their are a variety of ways to setup a kill. Ranging from milling an opponent out with stroke of genius after creating infinite mana, to milling them out with extractor demon after converting all of your lands to creatures and sacing them to a zuran orb or whatever, or milling them out with a giant brain freeze.

I am sure there are ways to kill them that don't involve milling.

Of course, you have your more mundane combo kills, like lim-dul's vault->brain freeze -> living death, or creating an infinite loop with saffi->altar of dementia->karmic guide to mill an opponent out, or the tried and true laboratory maniac kills.

On the small level, aggro decks get to be on the fun with:




Which can be grouped as:

1) Creating very large horizontal board states suddenly, that the micro anthems can exploit
2) having cards in place that take advantage of the sudden death of those horizontal board states (say to a goblin bombardment-note: may be a bit light on mass sacrifice outlets, and there is an argument for cryptolith rites.).


recruiter of the guard being a nice tutor for these decks: wish imperial recruiter was cheaper :/

Balancing of course, will be an ongoing process. There is quite a bit of lifegain in the format, which was a surprise, and quite a bit of attrition discard, as well as ways to disrupt the graveyard. In addition, much of the combos require some self-mill setup to execute. Ghostly flicker might be a bit much, however.

Of course, if you want to approach things in a more traditional way, you are free to do so. There are some interesting non-blue control decks, and a B/W warriors tribe that came together surprisingly well, as well as traditional flyers and midrange strategies (Though I tried to keep midrange ETBs at a minimum, to make it kind of a trap).

I'm a little worried about the aggro decks being too good. Gameplay is supposed to evolve to a late game, where the aggro deck's puzzle is completing its reach plan by setting up a big damage burst, while the other decks are supposed to be searching for their own combo finish, after spending the early/mid game setting up while fending off creature aggression or hate.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I'm not sure I have enough lifegain for that? I would see it as a RWG card maybe, as that landfall enchantment in green is a constant source of life.

Here are some more non-blue control decks I liked:

seismic tax from CubeTutor.com

Rwg lands control from CubeTutor.com

This one keeps itself from decking via codex shredder -> krosan reclamation. I love how you can build actual creatureless decks now without the proliferation of ETBs

Neat little decks, and I am tempted to add a third wrath effect in white to support them. Wrath's rising stock also seems to make dash creatures or manlands better, as ways to avoid sweepers.

Here is a B/W aggro deck

warriors from CubeTutor.com

Really kind of unhappy with it. There should be some white knights for haakron to recur, possibly that changeling removal spell in white. I also feel white should be providing at least one anthem effect. Maybe:



Edit: Alfonso, those lair lands are really good.

Also, cut planar birth to put back in faith's reward: reward is the same card but more flexible.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

In a bid to tighten up B/W, I added



Cutting, at least for the time, living death.

This was interesting.

B/W aggro stax from CubeTutor.com

Few factors at work here:

1. All of the ramp in white, works nicely with smokestack, helps break symmetrical discard effects, and powers the rally effects

2. Being able to rally back discard creatures breaks the symmetrical effects of smokestack and discard effects.

3. Discard provides disruption to let the aggro threats go the distance.

Its not quite there. I probably need one more discard or symmetrical discard effect in the 360 (some kind of greater disruption), and probably want to add blood artist. This looks more like a real strategic axis though for B/W.

Next need to tighten up U/R.

 

[sigh]

?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

?

I've been burned by that card so badly in the past, but it actually probably is perfect here isn't it?

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I love that BW idea. Feels like a nice union of color identities.


What about this card? Doesn't it play into the same idea?

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

In a bid to tighten up B/W, I added



Cutting, at least for the time, living death.

This was interesting.

B/W aggro stax from CubeTutor.com

Few factors at work here:

1. All of the ramp in white, works nicely with smokestack, helps break symmetrical discard effects, and powers the rally effects

2. Being able to rally back discard creatures breaks the symmetrical effects of smokestack and discard effects.

3. Discard provides disruption to let the aggro threats go the distance.

Its not quite there. I probably need one more discard or symmetrical discard effect in the 360 (some kind of greater disruption), and probably want to add blood artist. This looks more like a real strategic axis though for B/W.

Next need to tighten up U/R.

I'm not sure what rally and wake are doing in that deck. For me they are ways to combo with sac effects and give graveyard interaction. I like rally and also play return to the ranks as it gives white something graveyardy to do.

Smallpox has the potential to create some non games but depends on your tolerance for that type of thing.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I'm not sure what rally and wake are doing in that deck. For me they are ways to combo with sac effects and give graveyard interaction. I like rally and also play return to the ranks as it gives white something graveyardy to do.

Smallpox has the potential to create some non games but depends on your tolerance for that type of thing.

I was looking for them to create a big temporary board state later in the game, independent of ETBs or sac effects. Create 10+ power out of nowhere and so forth.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Create 10+ power out of nowhere and so forth.

Doesn't rally work in a way that the creatures never get to red zone your opponent?

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

I was looking for them to create a big temporary board state later in the game, independent of ETBs or sac effects. Create 10+ power out of nowhere and so forth.

So they're just for surprise blocks?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

So they're just for surprise blocks?

Thank you sir, and I thought wake was end of your next end step.

I guess than immortal servitude and return to the ranks?

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Depends what you want from the slots and in which colours. I'd be interested in the results of immortal servitude, but wonder if say ever after might be better? death or glory?

I'd love to see a rally / altar of dementia win as well but agree rally probably isn't right here.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I'm kind of looking for a more gentle living death varient: something spicy and explosive. I suppose its possible that might be a fools errand.

Thd b/w deck is kind of hard to design, because I need an aggro deck that dosen't involve red. I also kind of want to shift some of the focus away from the bug colors, and living death tends to be a ub or bug card.