Innistrad Themed Cube: 360 Unpowered

Oh how much better it would be if that forecast ability was evoke for 1W instead. =(
Another question that i thought of a while ago. How come you have a Top of library theme but do not run the top? or counterbalance? or how about Crown of convergence?I guess you must have a good reason for it.
I hope you're not finding my trying to change the cube without even having played it yet (got alot of cards in the mail still) annoying or anything. If you do please tell me =)

 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
It dosen't bother me. I'm expecting your version to adapt for your players, and I'm looking forward to seeing the changes. The chief advantage of doing at least 1 run with a stock list, is that it gives you a solid frame of reference as to how things were designed to run. I'm ok with whatever you decide to do though, as this dialogue is helpful for me regardless, because it makes me think critically about cards I may not otherwise have thought about.

Top would be really good to run. The reason I don't is because my local players take way too long fiddling with it. I've thought about running crystal ball instead, but it seems so low impact. Counterbalance is a card that I think needs top to be playable, and at that point isn't much fun to play against.

Now, crown of convergence is a card I had in the original drafts of the cube, but is not currently in due to space reasons. I really like the card though, and it does everything I want from a TOL effect: impacts the board, manipulates the TOL, vulnerable to shuffle effects. There is just nothing I feel really pressed to cut for it. The {G}{W} to manipulate the TOL also means its going to be a bit slower to catch on, since people will view it as a multi-colored card. I think that was my chief issue with it, though its hardly a fatal flaw.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I don't think I will cut persecutor, it results in some interesting board states, is a build around in its own right, and is a payoff card in the sacrifice decks.

I like bloodline keeper, I think its a really well designed card. There is merit to the idea of running both of them, but I don't think persecutor is the cut I want to make. That could be an ink eyes cut though...
 
I like the ink eyes -> nocturnus change, it's probably alot better than my champion of stray souls suggestion.
Things are slow at work today so got a chance to look over the list again and Explore caught my eye. It seems a bit out of place in a cube with very little card draw. Also i remember you saying you want to make the ramp more creature-centric. How have it been playing in your experience?

Anyway, i got together a few alternatives that may fit better
Druids' Repository - Ties the ramp to creature combat in a new way. Gets the big creatures out earlier though by saving up from turn to turn.
Ordeal of Nylea - Another way to tie ramp into combat. Also ups the very low aura count in the cube without all of the usual drawbacks of creature auras since the counters stay even if the ordeal gets removed. On top of that it ties in to Khans +1/+1 counter mechanics if those get included later on (some of those outlast humans look interesting).

Descendants' path - cares about the top of library in a very meaningfull way.

Manabond- Can give really fast starts and is also a discard outlet in green. In a cube as graveyardcentric as this it really doesnt have to be that bad to put your hand in the yard. Granted, it's a very poor topdeck but that seems like a decent tradeoff for the chance of getting 3 lands in play on turn 1.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Re: ramp decks, I have a player here that will comfort draft green ramp every single time. As a result, I really cut back on the ramp, and have been slowly adding it back in, with the caveat that it not be an easy comfort draft.

So, some of the ramp cards i'm not really married to. Explore has been ok. Its job has been to help smooth out draws, while ramping a bit, and it does that fine. Of the cards you mentioned, I like druids' repository the most: its a bit slower, is a build around, and has an exciting, explosive feel to it. Ordeal I think is a bit too clunky. I would be open to considering oracle of mul daya as well in that slot (but not courser of kruphix). Oracle works better with TOL themes, but repository looks much more exciting. Oracle never made the cut before because of its body and CC, and i'm still not excited about it now. None of those cards help smooth out draws as well as explore.

Manabond looks a little bit too all in and narrow for my tastes. The advantage of something like druids' repository as a build around, is that it fits so well naturally in a lot of decks, is reasonable at all points of the games, and can result in some interesting decision trees. Manabond looks a bit narrow, and the decision tree it offers is a bit black and white. Also, one of the fine lines that you walk with a cube like this, is that while people like having the extra dimension the graveyard brings, they don't like feeling as if they are playing in the graveyard. Thats part of why I don't run the threshold mechanic: people get tired of counting the number of cards in graveyards. Manabond looks like it has a bit too much of that "playing in the graveyard" feel to it.

Descendants' path I would need to be sold a bit more on the type of deck it would go in. It looks like something that could be a drafting trap for certain players.

Welcome to the black hole of cube design, where you start off with one list, and than an hour later, you're on starcity/channel fireball ordering 10-15 new cards. ;) This is part of the reason why I tend to be so slow to make changes, since is easy to talk myself into swaps over non-issues; and there is some danger, in overbuffing certain themes, and creating a meta monster without realizing it. I actually do really like the druids' repository suggestion though. However, a lot of the new ramp package is so recent that I want to see how it performs before I add anything else. If I do add more ramp though, I think repository will be the card I add.

Actual core things about the list I like to keep an eye on:
1) Number of "play with the TOL revealed cards". Unfortunatly, I think I would have to go the custom card route to really be happy with these, since I want them to interact with the board state, and there has only been one card that has ever been printed that really does what I want (mul daya channelers).
2) If the number of aggressive mana sinks in green should be increased: wolfbitten captive, darkthicket wolf ect.
3) If I need to add more evasive attackers: orchard spirit ect.
 
I see what you're saying and perhaps i suffer from the problem om wanting to put too many build arounds and to few value/utility cards in my cubes. The reason for this i think is opening a first pack and seeing nothing that draws you into an archetype is rather miserable.
Another thing i thought of while poking around with the cube is the question of archetype balance. Is it all just meta dependant or are there some archetypes that generally win more than others?

Also, since you were looking for a spirit lord earlier but thought Drogskol captain was too narow how about Sprite noble?
It buffs both the spirits (who all fly except for spectral rider) and the angels and feels like exactly what UW skies would want. Not sure what to take out for it though.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Thats a complicated question, the short answer is that is that its all meta dependent.

The long answer is that one of the things I wanted from my cube was to have a dynamic and evolving meta game, where an initial "best deck" would emerge to prey upon the default draft strategies, causing draft and deck building strategies to adapt to it.

We had this happen with the humans deck, which evolved to prey on an initial rush of slow midrange graveyard and pod decks. However, the meta has adapted to humans; faster decks are more common now, and the biggest evolution has been a strain of nearly creatureless aggro-control delver decks. Red, black, and blue just all have a lot of really good tools to disrupt the champion player, which people are capitalizing on.

i.m.o Delver, right now, is probably the best deck in the format, due to its potenial for explosive starts, ample disruption, and flashback card advantage to power the late game. It and humans, are currently setting the benchmark for early rushes you have to be ready for.

I'm not sure how the meta will adapt. But red has been becoming a more popular color, causing me to believe it will be overdrafted, making the U/R delver deck harder to put together. A lot of the non-red lists are also starting to show a penchant for running 6 or less creatures, so I am expecting delver to start migrating to other deck archetypes. There has also been a small push towards a U/R aggro-control deck, built around stromkirk noble rather than delver. Going with a noble based plan is an extremely effective strategy against a champion deck, for obvious reasons.

An additional wrinkle we've had, is that this weekend we saw our first reanimator deck, and it was a bit of a shock to the system. (I know it seems weird that it would take this long to get a reanimator deck, but there is a lot of cube space to explore here.) It was a B/U/G reanimator, using lim-dul's vault and insidious dreams to get living death asap, and than self-mill or discard it that betrays, before living deathing it into play. Wurm harvest and spider spawning were backup plans. It was surprisingly fast and consistant, with multiple lines of play, and could (and did) combo out on turn 5. So, I don't know, we might see a rush of these really comboish reanimator decks in the B/U/G colors, and that will change things.

In addition, no one has really explored the B/R color pairings yet, which I think has all of the tools to dethrone delver.

It can take a long time for people to figure out how to correctly build certain archetypes. Pod and delver are advanced drafts, requiring people to go out of their comfort zone. Humans can feel risky at first, stormkirk noble wants certain support, while runic repetition's applications are not initially obvious. I have yet to see a well drafted and designed ramp deck over here; and though i.m.o delver is, right now, the best deck in the format, it might take months before someone in your group figures out how to correctly draft, build, and play a delver deck. And thats ok, as this provides depth to the format, rewarding people for exploring the cube space, and innovating.

What I am trying to say, I guess, is that true archetype inbalance can be hard to pinpoint accurately, and its better to give the meta time to adapt than convincing yourself that deck X is too strong, and rushing straight to the scalpel.

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Spirit noble is a bit too low impact to take one of the competitive blue spots. If it were white though....
 
The changes look good and glad you liked my Druid's repository suggestion. Have you had a chance to see how the changes work in a draft yet?
I am almost done in my quest to complete a copy of the cube, there are only 30 cards missing now and most of them are fetches i intend to proxy. I am still not in love with the amrou seekers though, how has he been working out for you?
One alternative think look nice is Abzan Falconer.
The way i see it he has several upsides.
  • Relevant creature type: By adding another human we can are more able to change another human to a non human without making life difficult for the white human deck.
  • +1/+1 counter interaction: I checked and there are 3-4 cards (mostyly creatures) that make +1/+1 counters in each color and a few more in multi/artifacts and giving these cards flying seems like a nice synergy.
  • Different P/T: there are alot of 2/Xs in the format so that extra point of thoughness looks really useful.
  • More consistent: While the seekers are unblockable in some games and a grey ogre in others you know what you get with this guy. Intimidate is also not a very white ability.
Now the downside is that he is slower than the seekers since he needs to level up to get evasion and not as evasive since flying exists in all colors but i think that is fine.

Another alternative since white is so creature heavy anyway is to replace it with Spirit Mantle
It is multi use, turns any creature into an reliably evasive clock, fits the theme and also gives white its first non-removal aura.

Oh and another thing, I have the stapcaster and is running it instead of the kira, would you still cut that (or something else) for the extra stitched drake?

 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'm not in love with amrou seekers myself: 3 mana and no relevant creature type.

This is whats going on; in triple III draft, one of the things that made it a good format was that you had a certain density of cards that punished people for not interacting with the board. Part of the formula was represented by the combination of transformation cards with a lack of quality removal, the other part was represented by evasive guys that can pound past blockers: orchard spirit, spectral rider and so forth.

Unfortunatly, in white, there is a very limited card pool of unblockable creatures. Thats where amrou seekers came into the list, and its been pretty mediocre, so I am open to suggestions.

The problem I have with abzan falconer is that he seems very slow: what that slot needs is an aggressive card to punish players for creating non-interactive board states, while abzan falconer kind of rewards it. I do like the spirit mantle line of thinking though. When I was making the list I was looking at creatures to fill that role, and neglected the possibility of enchantments. My only concern is that it might be used defensivly.

I would probably either cut the fettergeist or snapecaster. Having a second stitched drake does a lot for the list: U/W flyers, U/G mulch, U/B zombies--it just has a lot of homes, and ties together a lot of themes. Plus, one of the major self-mill incentives in original III was the idea that you could get these undercosted beaters as a reward for making a tempo sacrifice.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Niblis seems strong. 2 drop, relevant creature type, evasive, and clears the way for attackers. Stromkirk noble would love it.

Also, I've not played with those changes yet in draft. I am planning to implement them this week. There is some chance stab wound becomes darkblast by the time I add the cards.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Made the changes for last nights draft: went well. I ran darkblast instead of stab wound, which I think is correct: darkblast provides another piece of early interaction for the grindy decks.

Celestial Crusader was a lot more impactful than dictate of heliod. Dictate was always one mana too many, and crusader is great both as a combat trick and tempo play. It fits with the spirits, tokens, and humans decks.

We had some pretty funny game states last night, including a B/U/G deck that won a game by mass sacrificing army of the damned tokens to trigger blood artist enough times to win; and another game where he had his opponent at negative life with an abyssal persecutor, no sac outlets in sight, and than ripped grimgrin, corpse-born (of all things) off the top, the turn before he would have had his face smashed in by angelic overseer and friends.
 
Nice to see that the changes are working as intended and I wish we could get more Spirits matter cards into the cube somehow. I considered putting the Dearly Departed in the Angelic Overseer slot but decided the overseer probably was a better buff for the human deck and a more unique effect.

Another thing i thought about recently is the black activation costs in white. Its obvious why you run the lingering souls but why choose Scholar of Athreos over Basilica Guards? Lets face it, it's not like the scholars are going to attack very often.

Order of whiteclay or Soulsworn Jury would also be interesting effects to have with similar cc and body.

Another card i had my eye on that seem to be useful in the Amrou seekers slot is Azorius Herald but the blue requirement for it to be something other than a pricey Sacred Nectar makes me kind of reluctant to use it. Could be something though if we want to promote the UW evasion deck though.
 
In addition to that I am considering running Wood Sage over Shadowmage infiltrator. My reasoning here is that the sage rewards knowing whats on top of the deck and seems really strong in self mill decks. The infiltrator with it's repeatable card draw does kind of stick out a bit from the theme i think. It would also be the first UG card in the cube and then every combination would have at least one card =)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
With the scholar of Athreos, I was trying to accomlish two things: provide a relevant 3cc blocker in white, and provide another reason for a player to go into a B/W color pairing. Order of whiteclay certaintly is the more interesting card in the abstract, but I talked myself out of that on the basis that I have enough similar effects that running a defacto B/W blocker that drains was more interesting. I also don't like the {W}{W} since those cards have to be able to come down turn 3 in the decks they go in. Basilica Guard would be fine though.

The thing with the spirits deck, is that there arn't a lot of build arounds that pull someone into the archetype. So, the way it will play out in draft will be either someone takes angel early in the pack, and starts drafting a "spirits deck", or they are just taking good cards that happen to be spirits, and stumble across angel. Thats why its important the spirits I do run be independently worthwhile, as they have to stand on their own merits. There also just has to be a certain density of them. Based on that criteria, I think Dearly Departed (flyers, humans, spirits) or Kokusho (B/W drain, spirits, sacrifice), make the most sense, were I to go deeper into promoting the archetype. The important thing is that people don't feel like they fell into a drafting trap.

Herald is a card that almost made the list a number of times, but the color requirement keeps it out. It is a sweet card though.

Wood sage looks sweet. Lots of interesting interactions with lim-dul's vault I predict.

The reason I run shadowmage is that its a 3cc blocker and another evasive threat. I don't mind the card draw here because its locked away in a gold card, and is kind of a reward for going in those colors.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
It occured to me that if I were to run a card other than scholar, it probably should be village bell-ringer: human, x/4 creature, costs{2} {W}, is a combat trick, and has interesting interactions with somnophore, dungeon geists, galvanic juggernaut, and grimgrin, corpse-born.

I did a spirit count, and here is what I got:



So thats one major build around, and 5 quality targets one would want to recur. Thats a pretty reasonable density, but its still worth considering finding room for dearly departed. It might be worth cutting valkyrie for it.
 
You forgot Nether Traitor. Granted that its interaction with the angel is very marginal but it could matter.

Speaking of spirits, here are a few more cards that interact as spirits on the board but are not returnable. How many do you think we need before we include the likes of Drogskol Captain or Battleground Geist?



Another card that interest me is Strangleroot Geist. Pod would love it, Gx aggro would love it, BG with lots of sacrifice effects would love it and its a spirit that's returnable with the angel.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Battleground Geist I don't think is a contender. Dictate of heliod is a much better card, but at 5cc it was too clunky to see much play. Its also just very narrow.

If it came down to it, I think I would prefer to break singleton on geist of saint traft rather than run Drogskol Captain. The thing I don't like about captain is that its very narrow: the body is not impressive, and if picked early it commits you to a certain tribe, deck strategy, and color combination. U/W already has a strong main theme with flyers, and we are really just looking to promote a fun sub theme in the color combination. As a result, I don't think its necessary to try to push the spirit deck into main theme territory, especially when the support is so questionable.

Strangleroot geist is an interesting suggestion, and I am going to write a lot about it. If you look at the list, you'll notice that there are no persit or undying creatures there; and, as a result, a lot of the traditional pod support cards are missing. The reason for this is that III was a very tempo based format, where the decks could exert pressure from an early point, and it really encouraged you to spend your mana rather than sitting back and playing a more card advantage, attrition based game. Thats why the removal was conditional, the transformation mechanic punished not casting spells, and there were no cards like thirst for knowledge or compulsive research, despite seemingly being natural fits in a graveyard format.

When dark ascension came out, they introduced both undying creatures and lingering souls, and the result was that the format became slower paced, and more card advantage focused, since you could chump block easily, and DA introduced better removal.

I'm not running the undying creatures currently (more on this in a moment) but I do have a number of flying token makers. However, this has not been detrimental to the format for several reasons:

1. The flying token maker cards (the good ones) are restricted to white, and are only three cards in a 360 list.

2. They are mostly conditional in some way. Spectral Procession is 4-5cc card most of the time, making it too slow to really blunt the aggro decks, and making it mana inefficent in a format where mana efficency is important. Lingering souls is much stronger, but usually those decks are splashing black, so it can be an issue flashing it back on time.

3. There are numerious ways to sweep aside a bunch of flying tokens: thundermaw hellkite, geistflame, lava dart, goblin sharpshooter, echoing decay, darkblast, sever the bloodline, forked bolt, silent departure and so on.

4. The easiest to cast token maker is midnight haunting, which is the weakest of the bunch.
There are three gather the townsfolk, but those tend to be in demand by an already aggressive deck as a combo piece (humans), and are unexciting in many other shells. In addition, stromkirk noble cannot be blocked by them.

Now, its not that undying creatures are necessarly bad, but they will change the overall flavor of the format, and probably have to result in some changes to avoid board stalls: perhaps stronger removal, or a reduction in the number of white token makers. I'm not interested in running them for those reasons, but you can; just be aware that those are issues with them and adjust accordingly.

For what its worth, I do like the way that not having them has changed the pod decks. Traditional pod is focused on exploiting death effects or ETB triggers while upgrading their board. Graveyard pod is more about upgrading your board while feeding your graveyard for abuse down the line. For example, the ideal pod chain here ends with a pod fueled Kessig Cagebreakers attack for game.

I know this is kind of a nuanced discussion, and I may not be explaining it as well as I should, especially since undying was part of a broader set of problems that DA had that made it worse than Innistrad. This exert from this Ars Arcanum article I think helps explain the sort of circumstances where the keyword can become a problem:


There is one more thorn in the side of tempo decks; every color got good value creatures for clogging up the ground. This is mainly manifest in Undying creatures, which only come back stronger if they are killed, as well as white creatures, which leave around token creatures. Blue gained a 3/6 for 3 mana. Green also got a great spider with Deathtouch. Instead of just being able to power through your opponent’s creatures, you are forced to hold your creatures back until you can find something to tip the balance in your favor.

All of these factors together combined to make the new limited environment a much more typical format. Card Advantage became important once again, and players have to focus more on being able to maintain a board presence in the late game. Control decks are better able to stabilize and gain an overwhelming advantage as the game goes on. Overall, the format actually slowed down a little bit, which was not my expectation at all.
 
Thank you for taking the time to write that up and i see what you mean with undying not being constructive to the format. I'm in favor of the Adarkar valkyrie -> Dearly departed switch since it is more synergistic with multiple archetypes.
I also feel that the Village Bellringers does more than the scholars and does not take up a white slot for what really is a gold card.
After looking thorught the gold cards where black is rather overrepresented and thinking back to your motivation for including the scholar because you wanted to push people into WB the question arises, Is black given more room intentionally ?

I may have found another, a bit more out of the box, way of solving the odd man out problem with amrou seekers. How about turning him into Odric, Master Tactician? Sure it costs an extra white but gives you much better stats, a relevant creature type and really helps small creatures swing through. Also including him gives us another human fourdrop wich lets us replace Tajic, Blade of the legion if we find some other gold card that fits better, perhaps a WB card that really gets people into the colors instead of the scholar. The problem with first strike is that it can be used defensively to hold back an entire team so the question might be if he is too good or not. Speaking of too good, have you seen this guy? We already have reusable creature kill in Burning vengance and you can't kill that with removal spells. =)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Just to beat this into the ground a little more; I think its possible that undying creatures could be ok in the format, just that at the moment its a bit questionable. In the first version of the cube I ran a lot of eldrazi spawn makers alongside the white token makers--on the logic that the eldrazi spawn would be good with the sacrifice theme--but the density of chump blockers created a board stall nightmare. After cutting the eldrazi spawn makers, things were fine, but obviously, there is some danger of going over the edge again in the current version of the cube. I'm just of the opinion that the white token makers add much more to the games than the undying/persist guys would.

Casting cost is another consideration in the decision; for example, I still have Kozilek's Predator in the list. Thats because at 4cc, the aggro decks should have time to put into effect their game plan before running the risk of getting stalled on the ground by the predator. I'm still not in love with the predator, and he will probably become the splicer you suggested, but the point is that were I to add an undying or persist creature, I would probably start at the 4cc spot, due to board stall considerations. Just some perspective in case you decide to experiment with that.

As for the heavy slant towards black in the multi-color sections, thats a product of design, but perhaps not a good one. Basically, the whole cube is a product of me having read an ars arcanum article, and than thinking about how cool it was the way that stitched drake and mulch supported one another. As a consequence, when I built the cube, there was a focus on color pairings, but unfortunatly, I wasn't using the method I advocate now (based on that experience and a WOTZ design artcle) which is writting down the ten guilds (or shards/wedges if you are doing that) and coming up with a theme and sub theme for each of them. As a result--as you noted--some of the guild pairings are very strong, while others are much weaker.

Seven of the guilds were well defined in the initial cube, the 8th (U/W) I feel is pretty well defined after this spirit update, but the 9th and 10th are still poorly defined (R/G and B/W). R/G has at least some definition as a pod color, but B/W is very poorly defined. Thats why the B/W multi-color section is as large as it is (me trying to add definition) and why I ran scholar in the first place; but despite those efforts, there are no real B/W decks.

One other wrinkle, from playing the cube, I found that certain mono color cards can really be defacto multi-color cards, which can make it really difficult to get an idea of where there are gaps in the multi-color section. For example, delver can (and has) ended up in non-U/R decks, but its a card that encourages a U/R color pairings. Spider spawning, I feel, is a U/G card based on the way it plays, despite it technically being G/B.

This is why I can have such a small (or in one case non-existant) U/R, U/G, and W/R sections in the multi-color listing of the cube, but still have strong decks based on those colors. On the other hand, I have a lot of B/W cards, but no real B/W based decks.

Odric is a good suggestion, and on paper I like it better than seekers. It would be interesting with Pod and provide another 4 drop to make the draft a little easier for them. I just have the same concern as you, that it may be too good. I feel the same about the Guerrillas, though that thing would do a great job ending any board stalls that might come up. I do feel like its a bit of a removal spell check though.

Thanks for all of your input btw, its been helpful putting the list under a microscope like this.
 
It really shows that you put a lot of thought and energy into building the cube and that is partly why I enjoy trying to make it that last bit better. Do you think it is possible, or even constructive, to try and set themes for the guilds now?

I also looked over the WB section and most of the cards are not that spectacular. My advise would be to turn the Orzhov Pontiff into Athreos, God of passage. They are both WB three drops and while the global -1/-1 ability on the potiff may be relevant sometimes it is till a 1/1 that doesn't do much once it is in play and not really something that pulls people into WB i think. The god on the other hand has a very powerful ability in a meta with lots of sacrifice effects and can sometimes just be a cheap fatty. Please note that I am sure there are moments while playing him that you actually want the creature to go to the yard for one reason or another so it's not always good. Also as with all "opponent chooses" effects it is never as good as you think it will be.

Another card i am a bit curious about is Porcelain legionnaire It's not really a white card since every aggro deck that wants it can play it and any aggro deck would play it at two, white or not. Shouldn't we either classify it as an artefact and find another, more suitable, card to replace it or cut it all together?
Here are a few suggestions for suitable replacements
  • Darklit Gargoyle - Good if you want to keep pushing the WB deck and can grow really big if you manage to pump his toughness somehow.
  • Niblis of the urn i mentioned this one earlier.
  • Nearheath Pilgrim So not everything in white has flying. He also gives white life gain, something that is very much in it's color pie but sorely lacking at the moment.
  • Spirit mantle I mentioned this one earlier too and while it may be used defensively it is also a good stall breaker and white has very many creatures anyway.
  • Perhaps just something as simple as Battlewise Valor? There aren't a lot of combat tricks at the moment and this one gives you some control over the top of your library.
 
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