Sets [KLD] Kaladesh Spoilers Thread

Well, let's break it down. Jace's best ability is probably brainstorming every turn. Chandra's first +1 is probably comparable. She draws you a card. If you can't use that card, it turns into a free shock, which is indistinguishable from a card in a red deck. It's not the same level of card selection, to be sure, but the option for free repeatable damage every turn likely balances that out.

Jace was good at protecting himself with his -1. Chandra's -3 is better, since killing a creature is better than bouncing it. You can't do it as often, but killing a creature tends to be more permanent, so you won't have to do it as often.

Fatesealing ins't bad, but I think ramping by 2 is stronger. Consider that if you have a 2-drop in your hand, Chandra is effectively a 2 mana spell.

Their ultimates both win you the game very quickly, but Chandra's comes online faster.

Like, I don't think she's just equal to Jace. I'm saying she's better than Jace.
That is a very bold statement! I think in the grand scheme of things magic-wise, JTMS is definitely better. This is partally because of the cards and environments he's in (or is banned from). In cube, he can honestly be middle of the road. Sure he's powerful, but so is all of cube. And he doesn't have 8 fetchlands to combo with every brainstorm actication. This new Chandra will be at least as good in a deck that can utilize her, and win in half the time.

Note that if you + to her ult right away, and deal 2 each time, it's only three spells and they die (from 20).

I'm 90% sure she's far too good for my cube. Which is sad, but facts is facts.
 
Yeah, even if Chandra is better in a red deck than Jace is in a blue deck, the blue deck is blue.
Well, yeah. I don't disagree. In their respective environments given the circumstances, Jace was probably better. R&D has a lot more experience with making walkers these days and hopefully aren't making a Caw-Blade leve development mistake again. But in a vacuum, comparing the two cards and noting that they are pretty fucking close isn't as ludicrous as some people are saying it is.

If Chandra doesn't wreck Modern, there's probably a strong case to be made for unbanning Jace.
 
Well, yeah. I don't disagree. In their respective environments given the circumstances, Jace was probably better. R&D has a lot more experience with making walkers these days and hopefully aren't making a Caw-Blade leve development mistake again. But in a vacuum, comparing the two cards and noting that they are pretty fucking close isn't as ludicrous as some people are saying it is.

If Chandra doesn't wreck Modern, there's probably a strong case to be made for unbanning Jace.

I agree that in a vacuum, they are very similar and if Jace's 0 were straight "draw a card", Chandra would be just as good if not better, but fetchlands alone put Jace's power level so far ahead of anything Chandra will ever do, I don't think there's any case to be made there. They would have to ban fetches and other broken interactions with repeatable brainstorms to get Jace back down to Chandra's level.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
https://www.you tube.com/watch?v=Tlg2CtZi6yk#t=02h14m28s

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The emerge deck LSV was playing at the spellslinging on stage looked super fun. Ignore the banter, enjoy the deck. Really, Fox Familiar into Wretched Gryff (draw two) into Morbid Curiosity (sac Gryff, draw 7) was awesome (if not particularly good)!
 

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
https://www.you tube.com/watch?v=Tlg2CtZi6yk#t=02h14m28s

Copy the link and remove the space between you and tube (plugin ignores timestamp :()

The emerge deck LSV was playing at the spellslinging on stage looked super fun. Ignore the banter, enjoy the deck. Really, Fox Familiar into Wretched Gryff (draw two) into Morbid Curiosity (sac Gryff, draw 7) was awesome (if not particularly good)!

What's this event? Why is there Kaladesh and some other set together?
edit: I guess it looks like future standard.
 
torrentialgearhulk.jpg

Nice! Sweet late game finisher for blue that can capitalize on counters played earlier. Now my 6-drop slot is contested.... Gearhulk vs. Crush of Tentacles.

EDIT!
nissavitalforce.jpg

YESssS. Just what I was looking for as an anchor for Green to be either controlling or aggressive. You can beat down with the 5/5, or block with it, and the rest of her abilities play into a card advantage engine. Love it! Worldwaker was always a little boring
 
Well, let's break it down. Jace's best ability is probably brainstorming every turn. Chandra's first +1 is probably comparable. She draws you a card. If you can't use that card, it turns into a free shock, which is indistinguishable from a card in a red deck. It's not the same level of card selection, to be sure, but the option for free repeatable damage every turn likely balances that out.

Jace was good at protecting himself with his -1. Chandra's -3 is better, since killing a creature is better than bouncing it. You can't do it as often, but killing a creature tends to be more permanent, so you won't have to do it as often.

Fatesealing ins't bad, but I think ramping by 2 is stronger. Consider that if you have a 2-drop in your hand, Chandra is effectively a 2 mana spell.

Their ultimates both win you the game very quickly, but Chandra's comes online faster.

Like, I don't think she's just equal to Jace. I'm saying she's better than Jace.



I should probably point out that I'm looking at this from a constructed perspective, as that is where the comparisons between her and JTMS fall very, very short.

Brainstorm VS. Exile

In terms of her +1, I'm not sure if you've ever played with Jace in constructed. At it's base, Jace's 0 is brainstorming, and brainstorming is drawing 3 cards (you put the two worst ones back, giving you a virtual 'net gain'). It stops being that once you lock yourself under a brainstorm cycle, but I'll get to that. Chandra's +1 has several limitations.

1. You cannot play lands, as the ability specifies 'cast,' and, well... you can't cast lands.

2. You must play the card that turn.

Now, the obvious response to this is 'but 2 damage!' and this is true; the 2 damage does help mitigate the downsides of the ability, somewhat. It does not, however, completely erase the ability's limitations.

Now let's compare that to JTMS's brainstorm ability, because that's the obvious parallel. Chandra's ability just isn't even close. Remember, we live in a world where fetchlands and shuffle effects exist. Brainstorm would not be half the card it is today without those effects. The ability to shuffle one's library makes brainstorm the ultimate selection tool, so much so that it is restricted in vintage. The ability to literally sculpt (ha) the perfect hand using Jace is a large part of what makes him attractive to your average control deck.

Chandra cannot do that. She provides an equal amount of card raw advantage, with none of virtual card advantage or the selection... sometimes. When you don't hit a land. Or something you don't want to cast. So.... we'll call it 60 percent of the time, to be generous? The other times it's a shock to your opponent, but that doesn't even come close to making up for the biggest issue with her ability: The lack of consistency.

I just don't see how these abilities come close, honestly.

Mini Ritual VS. Fateseal

This mini-ritual does not excite me. People are all like 'wah-wah mitigate her cost,' but what card do you know that's playable in constructed that has a double-red cost? That's what I thought. Maybe, MAYBE you get to double-bolt something, or you're just jamming a 4 drop into burn now because eeeh?

'Mana dump' effects are not typically used in constructed, and fireball effects such as banefire aren't either. I don't think this is enough to make them attractive. But what about next turn? For most decks, the jump from 5-7 mana doesn't really matter. At all. This is frankly an inconsistent ability... which is starting to become a theme here.

There is exactly 1 deck that actually wants this ability: All-In Red, in modern. Maybe dragon/werewolf stompy/Imperial Painter in Legacy want the card, but even then this ability is flavor text.

Fatesealing is always value. You can scry away a bad card for yourself, or a good card for your opponent, or gain the knowledge that they'll be drawing land next turn and use that information to plan your turn. It also is mostly trinket text, as you + to reach his ultimate, but at least it's consistent value.

Bounce VS. 4 damage

Chandra's ability burns a creature for 4. This is not bad. However, there are some veeery important cards that this ability cannot deal with in Legacy (that format that Jace is actually played in), that Jace's can:



Not to mention Marit Lage tokens. I don't think I need to make much more of an argument than this. Burning for 4 is not bad, but it is not a guaranteed tempo advantage against any board state. So, you know... it's inconsistent value.

Ultimate VS. Ultimate

They both win the game more or less the next turn. Willing to call them equal.

Starting Loyalty:

Jace starts with less, but pluses faster. Chandra starts with more, but pluses slower. Neither of them can remove a creature and survive bolt. Both of them can plus and survive bolt. They are equal-ish here enough that I don't have much to talk about.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... JTMS will always be consistent value in constructed. Chandra, much less so.

BUT WHAT ABOUT IN CUUUUUUUUBE?!

There is certainly an environment where this new Chandra is better. To support this, your cube environment must have:

  • No shuffle effects.
  • Few creatures with toughness over 4
  • A highly aggressive creature base
In that environment, I could see this new Chandra being... well, not better, but equal. Ish. Sort of. I've not really convinced myself.

Tl;Dr: Jace is consistent, Chandra is not.
 
Based on your little end note, Gifts, Chandra is better than Jace in almost every single riptide cube.
  • non-constructed level of shuffle effects. You get like 2-3 in your deck in RTL cubes that has double fetches. My cube you get 1-2. In constructed you have like 8-9. That's more than twice to three times the density once decksizes are normalized.
  • Most RTL cubes have very pushed creature curves. Pushed downwards. There are 22 creatures in my cube that the 4 damage doesn't hit, not counting tokens, which all get hit, I believe. That's 93% kill success.
  • basically just a repeat of the point above.
And then we can get into more bonuses
  • doesn't just lock you into your opponents value loop by having to unsummon an ETB creature. There are a lot of those in RTL cubes.
  • ramps you. I'm not sure what world ramping from 5 to 7 is a bad thing, or from 0 to 2. the First scenarios that popped into my head were: Play -> ritual -> Searing Spear, protecting her while plussing her. Alternatively on the next turn, Rtiual -> drop World Breaker or Angel of Serenity or Sphinx of the Final Word
  • Can actually just kill your opponent with plussing. In a more aggressive deck, this can shorten the clock to one or two turns by representing up to 6 damage to the face. That's Fiery Confluence levels of efficiency, and it only goes up from there.
I get that in environments that specifically coddle Jace, he's far and away the best there can be with value from every ability, but he doesn't get that environment around here.
 
Based on your little end note, Gifts, Chandra is better than Jace in almost every single riptide cube.
  • non-constructed level of shuffle effects. You get like 2-3 in your deck in RTL cubes that has double fetches. My cube you get 1-2. In constructed you have like 8-9. That's more than twice to three times the density once decksizes are normalized.
  • Most RTL cubes have very pushed creature curves. Pushed downwards. There are 22 creatures in my cube that the 4 damage doesn't hit, not counting tokens, which all get hit, I believe. That's 93% kill success.
  • basically just a repeat of the point above.
And then we can get into more bonuses

  • doesn't just lock you into your opponents value loop by having to unsummon an ETB creature. There are a lot of those in RTL cubes.
  • ramps you. I'm not sure what world ramping from 5 to 7 is a bad thing, or from 0 to 2. the First scenarios that popped into my head were: Play -> ritual -> Searing Spear, protecting her while plussing her. Alternatively on the next turn, Rtiual -> drop World Breaker or Angel of Serenity or Sphinx of the Final Word
  • Can actually just kill your opponent with plussing. In a more aggressive deck, this can shorten the clock to one or two turns by representing up to 6 damage to the face. That's Fiery Confluence levels of efficiency, and it only goes up from there.
I get that in environments that specifically coddle Jace, he's far and away the best there can be with value from every ability, but he doesn't get that environment around here.


This may surprise you, but I completely agree. I am a person who in general thinks Jace is over-valued in draft. He is still very good, mind you... but not as good as he is with a proper shell around him.

Edit: There is a big difference between 'constructed' Jace and 'draft' Jace. People who spout the 'ermagerd chandra the mind sculptor' shtick typically do not have cube in mind, lol.
 
This may surprise you, but I completely agree. I am a person who in general thinks Jace is over-valued in draft. He is still very good, mind you... but not as good as he is with a proper shell around him.

Edit: There is a big difference between 'constructed' Jace and 'draft' Jace. People who spout the 'ermagerd chandra the mind sculptor' shtick typically do not have cube in mind, lol.
That may be, but even in constructed it's hard to tell just how good a card can be. Chandra could absolutely montrously good in bigger, midrangier decks in modern. Examples that comes to mind would be Skred Red and some bigger Naya Zoo deck, where you are already pressuring your opponents a lot, and this is opening up a whole new level of pressure.

One thing consistent with her abilities is that they more directly work towards you just winning. Jace is all about providing tools of card advantage that require the deck to be suited to allowing that to happen, chandra is about getting your deck into play, dealing damage, killing the opponent.
 
This may surprise you, but I completely agree. I am a person who in general thinks Jace is over-valued in draft. He is still very good, mind you... but not as good as he is with a proper shell around him.

Edit: There is a big difference between 'constructed' Jace and 'draft' Jace. People who spout the 'ermagerd chandra the mind sculptor' shtick typically do not have cube in mind, lol.
Well, you've got me that I never played Jace in constructed (I took a nice long break between Kamigawa block and AVR with the exception of a few drafts here and there, and I've never touched a legacy deck), so the only experience I have with him is in a cube context. From that perspective, she's probably too strong. She's at least Elspeth, Knight Errant level, and that card is just unreasonable.
 
torrentialgearhulk.jpg

Nice! Sweet late game finisher for blue that can capitalize on counters played earlier. Now my 6-drop slot is contested.... Gearhulk vs. Crush of Tentacles.

EDIT!
nissavitalforce.jpg

YESssS. Just what I was looking for as an anchor for Green to be either controlling or aggressive. You can beat down with the 5/5, or block with it, and the rest of her abilities play into a card advantage engine. Love it! Worldwaker was always a little boring
Gearhulk only says Instant. Not sure I like that.

New Nissa is very cool. I like that her ultimate is an easy to achieve grindy card advantage engine, rather than a difficult you win the game thing. I'm not sure I like her more than Voice of Zendikar, though, and I try to only have 1 version of a walker in my cube at a time.
 
Re: 1 walker version at a time, I'm starting to feel like the best way to balance Super Friends is to jam multiple versions of each walker you like and demand your players sequence appropriately or draft selectively. It's not the end of the world to have a Nissa "dead in your hand" if you've got one on the field overflowing with counters. Just a rogue thought for the galley, since I know we all pivot between "walkers warp formats badly" and "I want to run fun cards and walkers are fun".

Re: Torrential Gearhulk, why must they spoil my Spells-Combo fun? All my combo cards are sorcery speed! I may well end up running it, anyway, but I SO wish it could've been another piece for my spell shenanigans..
 


Some thoughts!
1) Animation Module seems highly cubeable, and I believe I'll be running it. {3} to proliferate on 'walkers alone is enough to get me excited, but pumping out cute robots for engaging in +1/+1 counter shenanigans? Priceless! Combine with Mikaeus, the Lunarch for some zany go-wide goodtimes!
2) Decoction Module could well be included, as well. I see energy coming into my cube, I feel it's quite likely, anyway, and the ability to re-buy ETB creatures for {4} seems like a very fair spin on old, busted faves like Crystal Shard. But this is me with some optimistic thoughts, and by no means a guaranteed include.
3) Fabrication Module is the loosest of the lot, but I could see throwing it in in energy is a major feature of my cube, or just for the sake of putting in a 3-card combo in.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Given that you can proliferate poison counters (a key angle of its draft format), you can proliferate energy counters, right?
I guess I should remember from our discussion of Experience Counters (Meren of Clan Nel Toth), but I'm not sure if we brought it up
 
Well, you've got me that I never played Jace in constructed (I took a nice long break between Kamigawa block and AVR with the exception of a few drafts here and there, and I've never touched a legacy deck), so the only experience I have with him is in a cube context. From that perspective, she's probably too strong. She's at least Elspeth, Knight Errant level, and that card is just unreasonable.


You should play Legacy! It's super fun, and skill-testing besides. Chandra is likely to be one of the strongest walkers ever printed for cube, so I can't really argue with ya there.

That may be, but even in constructed it's hard to tell just how good a card can be. Chandra could absolutely montrously good in bigger, midrangier decks in modern. Examples that comes to mind would be Skred Red and some bigger Naya Zoo deck, where you are already pressuring your opponents a lot, and this is opening up a whole new level of pressure.

While I can see a theoretical meta where she shines more, Modern currently lacks those midrange decks that would really utilize her; and I'm not sure she is going to be the tipping point to make those decks popular. T4 is a real cost in modern, considering that you're going up against consistent T2-T3 wins these days, with infect, death's shadow, the faster zoo variants, etc.

One thing consistent with her abilities is that they more directly work towards you just winning. Jace is all about providing tools of card advantage that require the deck to be suited to allowing that to happen, chandra is about getting your deck into play, dealing damage, killing the opponent.


This is why I agree that in a vacuum, I would prefer Chandra to Jace in a cube, although I do disagree that Jace does nothing without support. Jace just +2ing and threatening to ult is the real deal. In cube, your opponent is not going to consistently have the tools to pressure him all the time; unless your cube trends to aggro.

Reminder: Not saying new Chandra is bad. She's the best Chandra ever printed, IMO. But I am not inclined to leap face-first on every hype train that comes along without testing.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
torrentialgearhulk.jpg

Nice! Sweet late game finisher for blue that can capitalize on counters played earlier. Now my 6-drop slot is contested.... Gearhulk vs. Crush of Tentacles.

Hmm... I was looking for a blue, non-flying finisher the other day :) Eventually I settled on Elder Deep-Fiend, but this is a nice option as well. I also think this set may finally make artifacts matter a theme that bleeds nicely into other colors. The only thing I hate about this set so far is that I'm halfway through with rebuilding it, but don't want to wait another month to finish up, when I've got momentum going right now!
 
I'm just annoyed that she obsoletes Chandra, Pyromaster, who up until this point has been my favorite Chandra (and she's still got the best art).

As far as Gearhulk goes, I missed the part where it has flash. That makes the only instant thing make more sense. I'll probably run it as an intersection the artifact theme and spells matter, both of which are heavy in blue.
 
I'm just annoyed that she obsoletes Chandra, Pyromaster, who up until this point has been my favorite Chandra (and she's still got the best art).

As far as Gearhulk goes, I missed the part where it has flash. That makes the only instant thing make more sense. I'll probably run it as an intersection the artifact theme and spells matter, both of which are heavy in blue.


That, I can totally agree with. It was one of the reasons I like flamecaller so much. She didn't step on Pyromaster's toes. This, though... it's just strictly better, even if it's utility is slightly different :/
 
Chandra's exile ability is nowhere near as good as Jace's brainstorm, even without shuffles. Still a very strong card. I like Pyromaster a lot and Torch of Defiance is probably just an upgrade (though hitting land drops with Pyromaster is nice).
 
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