General Minor Graveyard Support
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
I don't really like most of the other Golgari enablers, but like I said, I feel the mono-colour enablers are more than good enough. There's a helluva payoff card they just printed, though:
I find a lot of cube designers make it too much work for too low impact to put a lot of effort into making this kinda thing happen. fighting 2/1s for 1 with salvage into think twice is not a winning game lol and black grave guys dont fucking block.
I can go into 4 colours and get every durdly card I need to make my 4colour value reanimator deck to work in say eric's cube but then something with 2 colours is still gonna beat me half the time for reasons to various to document, no matter if I got the compulsive research eternal witness and profane command I really wanted lol.
Delve has helped, as has prowess, but you gotta remember in everyones effort to make green more interesting we've seen a big up in incredibly potent graveyard hosers like DRS or Ooze.
If you wana play grave value, take out some of the horse shit protection instants, and power boosters like +1/+0 unblockable or other niche playable cards that only benefit the stupid aggro decks you are already coddling and start adding in more grave benefits actually worth playing around and more copies of effects that the graveyard deck wants but everyone else wants also, like snapcaster, or gurmag etc
I can go into 4 colours and get every durdly card I need to make my 4colour value reanimator deck to work in say eric's cube but then something with 2 colours is still gonna beat me half the time for reasons to various to document, no matter if I got the compulsive research eternal witness and profane command I really wanted lol.
Delve has helped, as has prowess, but you gotta remember in everyones effort to make green more interesting we've seen a big up in incredibly potent graveyard hosers like DRS or Ooze.
If you wana play grave value, take out some of the horse shit protection instants, and power boosters like +1/+0 unblockable or other niche playable cards that only benefit the stupid aggro decks you are already coddling and start adding in more grave benefits actually worth playing around and more copies of effects that the graveyard deck wants but everyone else wants also, like snapcaster, or gurmag etc
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I'd Entomb:
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
A lot of the original graveyard design was supposed to revolve around different ways to generate card advantage, while more recently its been shifting to more tempo based offerings (delve). Its important not to mix the two up, especially if the format isn't about card advantage. Like lucre said, mixing in a bunch of semi-narrow, durdly, card advantage cards with gravecrawlers, bloodghasts, and carrion feeders that can't block is a recipe for disaster. Its better to have the graveyard interactions focus on something the cube is already about.
There is also a division between graveyard cards that care about dudes in the yard, lands in the lard, or just want things in the yard. The latter (delve) is better for incidental support; however, its going to be very difficult to support both land based graveyard strategies and creature based strategies, incidentally, in the same cube. The creature based ones are easier, due to the reanimation effects and sacrifice themes we already runs. There are generally a lot less broadly applicable ways to get lands into the yard--fetchlands being a trap, because again, they tend to be dispersed around the format since everyone wants them.
One really nice for those decks are cheap disposable creatures that buy time and slow the game down, or cards that work well with sacrifice themes. This is a much better way to fill up the yard than narrow enablers. Both ramp and graveyard decks can benefit from a card like sylvan ranger or sakura tribe elder: a card neutral play that ensures you hit your land drops, slows the game, and puts a dude into the yard. Another card I really like (probably too low power for most people) is ambush viper, which does a lot: green spot removal that puts a creature into the yard. Evoke guys are also really good because you can get value off of them with sac. effects and they are good value reanimation targets if nothing else.
Basically, if the graveyard card isn't something you can just generally cast and be happy with, its probably too narrow.
There is also a division between graveyard cards that care about dudes in the yard, lands in the lard, or just want things in the yard. The latter (delve) is better for incidental support; however, its going to be very difficult to support both land based graveyard strategies and creature based strategies, incidentally, in the same cube. The creature based ones are easier, due to the reanimation effects and sacrifice themes we already runs. There are generally a lot less broadly applicable ways to get lands into the yard--fetchlands being a trap, because again, they tend to be dispersed around the format since everyone wants them.
One really nice for those decks are cheap disposable creatures that buy time and slow the game down, or cards that work well with sacrifice themes. This is a much better way to fill up the yard than narrow enablers. Both ramp and graveyard decks can benefit from a card like sylvan ranger or sakura tribe elder: a card neutral play that ensures you hit your land drops, slows the game, and puts a dude into the yard. Another card I really like (probably too low power for most people) is ambush viper, which does a lot: green spot removal that puts a creature into the yard. Evoke guys are also really good because you can get value off of them with sac. effects and they are good value reanimation targets if nothing else.
Basically, if the graveyard card isn't something you can just generally cast and be happy with, its probably too narrow.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Man, thanks everyone for randomly posting about stuff I had directionless questions about over the last few days 
Is there some thread about UB Reanimator going up in a few hours?
Is there some thread about UB Reanimator going up in a few hours?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
So, question, between this and Pod, is my green section basically 99% creatures?
and if so, is that an issue?
I'd Entomb:
My problem is that I don't want my 7-drop to be a techy card for an aggro deck, I want it to be something control feels happy running.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Then don't call it 7 drop.
I tried that card out in my pox/zombie deck as a backup sacrifice machine for when my carrion feeders get nuked, its pretty good.
I tried that card out in my pox/zombie deck as a backup sacrifice machine for when my carrion feeders get nuked, its pretty good.
Okay, there is kind of a lot of... I feel like people in this thread are being unnecessarily dismissive. No, I don't expect durdly cards to be combined with a hyper-aggro strategy. I know Gravecrawler can't block. That's why when I was looking for a payoff card, my conclusion was to add more Delve board stabilizers like Gurmag Angler and Tombstalker.
Not sure how we can say Thought Scour is slow when it's a 1-mana instant speed cantrip that sees (saw) play in Legacy and Modern that replaces itself and puts 3 cards into the yard that interacts with Brainstorm and other top of library effects.
I don't really see Sakura-Tribe Elder as "incidental support" any more than Rampant Growth is. Both put a card in the graveyard, and aside from Meren (and Skaab Ruinator?) there hasn't really been any discussion of caring if creatures are in the graveyard (at least for me personally, I don't run reanimation). I guess tangentially STE gains some life against decks that are attacking on turn 2 and that is pro-durdle in some capacity, but it's not doing anything to accelerate you along the graveyard value axis.
What I found (and I'm super confident you guys will too) is that even with 25+ fetchlands and a super low curve, graveyards aren't filling up nearly as quickly in my format as in Modern or Legacy, so some cards that dump into the Graveyard sound like a great utility for fueling some sort of Rock deck that gums up the board with Turn 3 Delve creatures. Like what if instead of ramping into a 4-drop we "ramped" into a Turn 3 5/5 by playing some 2-mana cantrip that fills our graveyard and searches through 5 cards in our deck.
It feels like people are straw-manning some "Gravecrawler can't block" argument as a means to dismiss everything else going on in this thread.
Let's try to ground the discussion elsewhere for now. I'll throw out a concrete question: how much work do you need Gather the Pack to do in your deck to make it worth running?
In its favor:
+ puts a ton of cards in the yard for Delve shenanigans without representing card disadvantage
+ digs you towards your finisher, which is huge in a singleton format. My midrange / control decks usually have about 2 finishers in the 6-7 CMC range, and this will dig through 15-20% of your remaining library a large portion of the time.
Cons:
- two mana spell that doesn't affect the board. We have lots of these already, but, many still get play.
- it doesn't smooth your land-light draws. Maybe that's an argument for a more flexible card like Grisly Salvage (gold considerations aside)
I don't need it to fit in every deck. My cube is chock full of playables, but if a player can sometimes look at their pool and realize they've got sweet graveyard stuff going on, then all the merrier.
Not sure how we can say Thought Scour is slow when it's a 1-mana instant speed cantrip that sees (saw) play in Legacy and Modern that replaces itself and puts 3 cards into the yard that interacts with Brainstorm and other top of library effects.
I don't really see Sakura-Tribe Elder as "incidental support" any more than Rampant Growth is. Both put a card in the graveyard, and aside from Meren (and Skaab Ruinator?) there hasn't really been any discussion of caring if creatures are in the graveyard (at least for me personally, I don't run reanimation). I guess tangentially STE gains some life against decks that are attacking on turn 2 and that is pro-durdle in some capacity, but it's not doing anything to accelerate you along the graveyard value axis.
What I found (and I'm super confident you guys will too) is that even with 25+ fetchlands and a super low curve, graveyards aren't filling up nearly as quickly in my format as in Modern or Legacy, so some cards that dump into the Graveyard sound like a great utility for fueling some sort of
Rock deck that gums up the board with Turn 3 Delve creatures. Like what if instead of ramping into a 4-drop we "ramped" into a Turn 3 5/5 by playing some 2-mana cantrip that fills our graveyard and searches through 5 cards in our deck. It feels like people are straw-manning some "Gravecrawler can't block" argument as a means to dismiss everything else going on in this thread.
Let's try to ground the discussion elsewhere for now. I'll throw out a concrete question: how much work do you need Gather the Pack to do in your deck to make it worth running?
In its favor:
+ puts a ton of cards in the yard for Delve shenanigans without representing card disadvantage
+ digs you towards your finisher, which is huge in a singleton format. My midrange / control decks usually have about 2 finishers in the 6-7 CMC range, and this will dig through 15-20% of your remaining library a large portion of the time.
Cons:
- two mana spell that doesn't affect the board. We have lots of these already, but, many still get play.
- it doesn't smooth your land-light draws. Maybe that's an argument for a more flexible card like Grisly Salvage (gold considerations aside)
I don't need it to fit in every deck. My cube is chock full of playables, but if a player can sometimes look at their pool and realize they've got sweet graveyard stuff going on, then all the merrier.
Okay, was searching constructed decks that played Grisly Salvage. Found some random (likely to be rejected) cards to be considered:
Sakura-Tribe Elder interaction! This card has a weird-semi delve thing going on, without actually spending the resource that Delve cares about.
Probably too inefficient. It's kind of like a reverse Bonehoard (can attach to a creature first, becomes a creature later).
I ran this in my cube with the Gravecrawlers, but it was always kind of weird because usually you wanted to play the Crawler on Turn 1 and then you had less discard fuel for Lotleth Troll. Also that deck uses up its mana and isn't often holding regen mana up.
Known quantity.
There was also a Legacy Zombie Bombardment deck that ran it, dumping the yard full of Crawlers, Bloodghasts and Vengevines along with Cabal Therapy. Also played Deathrite Shaman.
Modern Dredgevine and Goryo's Vengeance decks. Some decks with a bunch of Delve in them.
Sakura-Tribe Elder interaction! This card has a weird-semi delve thing going on, without actually spending the resource that Delve cares about.
Probably too inefficient. It's kind of like a reverse Bonehoard (can attach to a creature first, becomes a creature later).
I ran this in my cube with the Gravecrawlers, but it was always kind of weird because usually you wanted to play the Crawler on Turn 1 and then you had less discard fuel for Lotleth Troll. Also that deck uses up its mana and isn't often holding regen mana up.
Known quantity.
There was also a Legacy Zombie Bombardment deck that ran it, dumping the yard full of Crawlers, Bloodghasts and Vengevines along with Cabal Therapy. Also played Deathrite Shaman.
Modern Dredgevine and Goryo's Vengeance decks. Some decks with a bunch of Delve in them.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Okay, there is kind of a lot of... I feel like people in this thread are being unnecessarily dismissive. No, I don't expect durdly cards to be combined with a hyper-aggro strategy. I know Gravecrawler can't block. That's why when I was looking for a payoff card, my conclusion was to add more Delve board stabilizers like Gurmag Angler and Tombstalker.
Not sure how we can say Thought Scour is slow when it's a 1-mana instant speed cantrip that sees (saw) play in Legacy and Modern that replaces itself and puts 3 cards into the yard that interacts with Brainstorm and other top of library effects.
I don't really see Sakura-Tribe Elder as "incidental support" any more than Rampant Growth is. Both put a card in the graveyard, and aside from Meren (and Skaab Ruinator?) there hasn't really been any discussion of caring if creatures are in the graveyard (at least for me personally, I don't run reanimation). I guess tangentially STE gains some life against decks that are attacking on turn 2 and that is pro-durdle in some capacity, but it's not doing anything to accelerate you along the graveyard value axis.
What I found (and I'm super confident you guys will too) is that even with 25+ fetchlands and a super low curve, graveyards aren't filling up nearly as quickly in my format as in Modern or Legacy, so some cards that dump into the Graveyard sound like a great utility for fueling some sort of
It feels like people are straw-manning some "Gravecrawler can't block" argument as a means to dismiss everything else going on in this thread.
Sorry if I'm coming across as dismissive, I am not trying to. I run incidental graveyard support, and am just relaying some of my own experiences with the theme. If its done too heavy handed, it will feel too low power, and too far removed from what the rest of the cube is looking to do. Sometimes you have to do your own experiment though, and I get that, but I can probably save you some time on certain things.
Thought scour isn't too slow, but it is too narrow. Literally only the graveyard deck is going to want to it, and thats a card that I've been wanting to be high on for a long time in cube. All of those "turbo delve" cards, are just not very good outside of the graveyard deck, and I've had more success with having the cube's pieces work together incidentally to support a graveyard theme rather than running narrow cards. Thats why I suggested something flexible like STE: it lets you sort of curve out in a way that fills up your graveyard while slowing down the game, and making sure you hit your land drops.
If you don't like STE, thats fine, but I would suggest 1 or 2 satyr wayfinder in its place, which operates on the same axis, and is much more flexible than something like gather the pack. If your payoff is fueling delve, than you really don't need to do much to support it: thats the beauty of delve. That GB midrange deck you are talking about (or the UB deck that will also inevitably result) doesn't need help to ramp out its delve threats, it will do that naturally via its interaction. If you want to speed that up, you can look for ways to ratchet up those decks rate of disposable spell velocity, rather than looking at tracker's instincts variants.
It's less that Thought Scour is there exclusively for Delve, and more that it's there as a "free shuffle" for Brainstorm / Scroll Rack / Jace / Delver Triggers / unwanted Sylvan Library and Courser cards. These decks tend to also run Delve spells, so the intersection is nice.
I do like Sakura Tribe Elder, but I need it and many other cards played to do any sort of early Delve action, and I don't currently run much that really cares about it being in the yard for any other reason that it's a card.
I do like Sakura Tribe Elder, but I need it and many other cards played to do any sort of early Delve action, and I don't currently run much that really cares about it being in the yard for any other reason that it's a card.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Some of the fringe benefits of playing gravecrawler type cards is that you can play innocent blood and not feel bad. Coincidentally, that's also a removal spell control decks love! Win/win! Smallpox works really well here too, but I'm not sure control decks that want to play Smallpox exist in most cubes. Smallpox does dump a lot of cards in the graveyard, so it might have some purpose here.
I think all of the green gravedump impulses are fine, but Grisly Salvage is a tier above. Being able to hit a land is a big deal. If you've got a couple of cards like that and Satyr Wayfinder you can shave a land out of your list which can be a huge advantage. I've never run it, but you are getting me interested. I'm not sure how much I like Gather the Pack even ifs it is mono-color.
Nemesis of Mortals has been a dud for me. Like you said filling the graveyard is a lot slower then in constructed and only counting creatures really limits your deckbuilding. I don't recommend it.
Lotleth Troll is great. As someone who played the fuck out of River Boa back in the day, regeneration is awesome. Trample is a bonus. Its totally worth it. The main thing is unless every hand you get is perfect, you get chances to save mana. And besides, if you play an awesome 3/4 drop and they instead kill your 2 because you were tapped and couldn't regen, are you really upset? And if they kill your 3/4, next turn you might not have another to play, but you will have a troll you can regenerate.
Maybe I missed being mentioned, but Buried Alive is a huge enabler for a lot of the stuff you are talking about.
I think all of the green gravedump impulses are fine, but Grisly Salvage is a tier above. Being able to hit a land is a big deal. If you've got a couple of cards like that and Satyr Wayfinder you can shave a land out of your list which can be a huge advantage. I've never run it, but you are getting me interested. I'm not sure how much I like Gather the Pack even ifs it is mono-color.
Nemesis of Mortals has been a dud for me. Like you said filling the graveyard is a lot slower then in constructed and only counting creatures really limits your deckbuilding. I don't recommend it.
Lotleth Troll is great. As someone who played the fuck out of River Boa back in the day, regeneration is awesome. Trample is a bonus. Its totally worth it. The main thing is unless every hand you get is perfect, you get chances to save mana. And besides, if you play an awesome 3/4 drop and they instead kill your 2 because you were tapped and couldn't regen, are you really upset? And if they kill your 3/4, next turn you might not have another to play, but you will have a troll you can regenerate.
Maybe I missed being mentioned, but Buried Alive is a huge enabler for a lot of the stuff you are talking about.
Smallpox was awful for me even in dedicated Gravecrawler decks, even though I really wanted to like it.
For the next draft I'll be testing Grisly Salvage and Gather the Pack, no better way to get info than to just jam the cards. There's also a Sidisi, Brood Tyrant in a flex spot, so maybe that will come together.
Buried Alive is an option, but for some reason I always think it will be even more narrow than Entomb, and far clunkier. I could potentially be sold, but it feels like a card I would put in for one draft and then take out soon after.
For the next draft I'll be testing Grisly Salvage and Gather the Pack, no better way to get info than to just jam the cards. There's also a Sidisi, Brood Tyrant in a flex spot, so maybe that will come together.
Buried Alive is an option, but for some reason I always think it will be even more narrow than Entomb, and far clunkier. I could potentially be sold, but it feels like a card I would put in for one draft and then take out soon after.
What Grillo said is very important: the graveyard matters cards can be broken up into multiple categories - any card in graveyard matters, creatures in graveyard matters, spells in graveyard matters, lands in graveyard matters...
Treat them as different decks that have intersecting cards rather than different versions of the same deck. Graveyard decks are trickier than other strategies because they LOOK like the same deck, so it's easy for a drafter to screw up and draft an anti-synergistic graveyard deck with Skaab Ruinator and Bonehoard.
The graveyard strategies I can pinpoint are:
Treat them as different decks that have intersecting cards rather than different versions of the same deck. Graveyard decks are trickier than other strategies because they LOOK like the same deck, so it's easy for a drafter to screw up and draft an anti-synergistic graveyard deck with Skaab Ruinator and Bonehoard.
The graveyard strategies I can pinpoint are:
- Creatures in graveyard (Ghoultree, Bonehoard, Living Death)
- Consume creatures in graveyard (Diabolic Servitude, Skaab Ruinator, Whip of Erebos)
- Consume anything in graveyard (Gurmag Angler, Dig Through Time, Deathrite Shaman)
- Lands in graveyard (Crucible of Worlds, Centaur Vinecrasher, Life from the Loam, Wildfire)
- Reanimate creatures fast (Necromancy, Animate Dead, Entomb)
- Spells in graveyard (Runechanter's Pike, Yawgmoth's Will, Deep Analysis, Ravaging Blaze)
Is gather the pack's spell mastery going to matter often enough for it to be better than commune with the gods? I feel like gather is better if slightly trickier to make better (need enough sorceries and instants but also enough creatures), but if you've got an enchantment theme going on already, maybe commune is better. Plus even if you're just playing 1 or 2 good enchantments commune can grab them.
Good point. I don't run an Enchantment theme, but there are Enchantments floating around the environment.
I am mostly working with "consume anything in graveyard", with Skaab Ruinator in the mix. Minor "lands in graveyard" stuff which is mostly supported by Fetchlands / Wasteland.
Don't run any support for reanimation, spells in graveyard (aside from Snapcaster) or creatures in graveyard.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
About the green graveyard impulses:
1. If impulse itself is too weak in your cube, filling your green section with narrow versions of it is probably questionable.
2. The problem with the creature/enchantment gravepulses is that spending your turn 2 to find a creature/enchantment that you can't cast is pretty miserable in faster formats.
I'm still pretty ugh about thought scour in cube. I've played a lot of UB/x turbo delver decks in modern and pauper; that card is so miserable to cast if you don't have anything to synergize with it, even in constructed decks designed to abuse it. The fact that its a modern legal blue cantrip says almost everything you need to know. But ymmv.
1. If impulse itself is too weak in your cube, filling your green section with narrow versions of it is probably questionable.
2. The problem with the creature/enchantment gravepulses is that spending your turn 2 to find a creature/enchantment that you can't cast is pretty miserable in faster formats.
I'm still pretty ugh about thought scour in cube. I've played a lot of UB/x turbo delver decks in modern and pauper; that card is so miserable to cast if you don't have anything to synergize with it, even in constructed decks designed to abuse it. The fact that its a modern legal blue cantrip says almost everything you need to know. But ymmv.
Umm its usually fine because you are casting it on turn 4 or 5 with like a strix or removal spell or boarderland ranger, whats actually bad is that the more competent aggro and midranged decks have been completely outclassing you up to and including this point of the game and the control decks couldn't give a shit, also you probz have mana problems.
But you can totes maybe find your whip with that 2 mana and start doing things with it 2 turns from now!
I would not underrate Scourge of Nel Toth as a viable option/payoff card. It's a sweet card that's a fair reanimation target, can create cool tech-y play with the right set-up, and it's just a fair card in general. It's the type of late-game finisher that feels non-oppressive while still being really good if you can cheat it in early. It doesn't just destroy games if you can power it out quickly. A 6/6 flier that can recur itself is pretty solid, there's also very few creatures that can deal with it head to head in the air in the late game.
RE the green graveyard impulses the only ones I actually like are mulch and satyr wayfinder. Getting lands early in the game are just better, and I want to be putting creatures rather than lands in the graveyard. I avoid too many non basics to avoid wasteland which I can understand as a less popular approach. I want creatures in the graveyard for
vengevine
Kessig cagebreakers
Genesis
Greenwarden of murasa
Eternal witness
Bonehoard
Molten-tail masticore
Feldon of the third path
Graveblade marauder
Undead gladiator
Soul of innistrad
Tasigur, the golden fang
Tombstalker
Foul renewal
Unearth
Phyrexian reclamation
Whip of erebos
Skabb ruinator
Body double
Reveillark
Emeria shepherd
Spider spawning
It also puts flashback and retrace cards there.
Other graveyard feeders that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread I don't think are
My list is heavy on the gy interactions if you're interested
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/16307
vengevine
Kessig cagebreakers
Genesis
Greenwarden of murasa
Eternal witness
Bonehoard
Molten-tail masticore
Feldon of the third path
Graveblade marauder
Undead gladiator
Soul of innistrad
Tasigur, the golden fang
Tombstalker
Foul renewal
Unearth
Phyrexian reclamation
Whip of erebos
Skabb ruinator
Body double
Reveillark
Emeria shepherd
Spider spawning
It also puts flashback and retrace cards there.
Other graveyard feeders that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread I don't think are
My list is heavy on the gy interactions if you're interested
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/16307
Maybe you wasn't listening mate but maybe I wasn't being clear enough. Impulses aint usually turn 2 plays unless you is got a combo you are frantically searching for or really need your anger of the gods.
Impulse is a turn 2 play the same way brainstorm is a turn 1 play.
Play impulse once your plan has started to have legs and you have some extra mana to spend on one of your turns, I know you're gonna we've all put a lot of emphasis on bulking up the 1-2-3 slots at the expense of 4-5-6.
Now [Turn 2 Grisly Salvage -> Turn 3 Tasigur + Removal Spell] is great but thats a special case.
One of my biggest problems with mulch is that getting lands late in the game is damn near useless and binning my thragtusk is actively quite bad in most riptide cubes as everyone here seems to hate even the card necromancy.
Is this you trying to be a cheeky chappy or are you just trying to be rude, as it comes across as rude?