Sets Shadows over Innistrad Spoilers Thread

[Grillo_Parlante]

FWIW, I didn't like Hyena Umbra when I ran it. And I think Gryff's Boon is better because flying > FS and (IMO at least) being able to recur it is better than the totem effect. I really don't think 4 mana is too much for the effect. I could be completely off base here, but I'm basing it off of how often I've seen Silent Departure flashed back. Granting a dude you have flying and +1/+0 late in the game could be the difference between being able to attack and being stonewalled. Not exactly like bouncing an opponents blocker, but I feel like it might be close.

If its going to be run, I kind of imagine it being played as a late game mana sink, one investment, on a single threat, when the game has kind of stalled, or its reached that attrition stage and there is just nothing competing with the mana investment. Kind of functioning like a manland in that sense, but a lot less efficient, since it requires a creature in play.

Silent departure is much better because the opponent is going to have to invest the mana again in the spell you bounced.

The elephant in the room here is the giant mana cost for a marginal buff, which you can't really get away from if we're evaluating the card fairly. 4 mana for +1 +0 and flying is a really bad rate (I hope we aren't actually arguing that point) and has to be able to compete with whatever else we could be doing at 4 mana. In a reasonably powered environment, casting pretty much any midrange spell is going to be a better use of mana. Even in my low powered environment (and I'm running the lowest powered environment here) thats just not a competitive rate with what you could be doing at 4cc, which is why I would expect it to be recurred in the late game, in a spot where you have a creature and literally nothing better to do with your mana.

Thats why I keep on allowing for corner cases with constellation (but evidently not heroic anymore, which just makes the card look even worse) since its possible that the triggered benefits from recurring it could be enough to justify a 4cc investment. I don't run enchantments though so I can't comment on that front. It would be nice if we could talk about the card and how it could fit into an environment (if at all), rather than dodging this mana cost issue.

The griffin guide cut is still really bad though. Surely, there is some bottom tier aura to cut for real world testing purposes? It would probably be more efficient to just do some mockup draft decks and run it through a few paces.

 

[yan]

i dont have any white discard outlets. i was thinking it can be used as fuel and reach in . straight up its weaker. is it worth a slot in a squee type of way

 

[sigh]

The elephant in the room here is the giant mana cost for a marginal buff, which you can't really get away from if we're evaluating the card fairly. 4 mana for +1 +0 and flying is a really bad rate (I hope we aren't actually arguing that point) and has to be able to compete with whatever else we could be doing at 4 mana. In a reasonably powered environment, casting pretty much any midrange spell is going to be a better use of mana. Even in my low powered environment (and I'm running the lowest powered environment here) thats just not a competitive rate with what you could be doing at 4cc, which is why I would expect it to be recurred in the late game, in a spot where you have a creature and literally nothing better to do with your mana..

Are we just ignoring that it's four mana from the graveyard, even if your hand is empty, after it's already been played once for some potential value? This isn't a spell that says Enchant creature +1/+0 and flying, and that's the whole spell. That part's the flashback. Do we just stop thinking flashback is good when it's on a permanent? Firebolt is five mana on flashback, I'd much rather be casting Thundermaw Hellkite when given the chance.... And I'd undoubtedly be casting my Gideon on four mana in my white deck, but then later I can gear up a knight with wings and start getting around board stall. Hell, I can strap up Gideon every turn if that works out.


Fair evaluation of the card? It's for +1/+0 and flying. that's decent at worst on it's own! Add "flashback"? Nice. Evidently this card isn't hitting the right notes for everyone. That's ok. Just look at how much discussion a one mana uncommon aura has wrung up. This is at the very least a super intriguing spell for a lot of people.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Are we just ignoring that it's four mana from the graveyard, even if your hand is empty, after it's already been played once for some potential value? This isn't a spell that says Enchant creature +1/+0 and flying, and that's the whole spell. That part's the flashback. Do we just stop thinking flashback is good when it's on a permanent? Firebolt is five mana on flashback, I'd much rather be casting Thundermaw Hellkite when given the chance.... And I'd undoubtedly be casting my Gideon on four mana in my white deck, but then later I can gear up a knight with wings and start getting around board stall. Hell, I can strap up Gideon every turn if that works out.


Fair evaluation of the card? It's for +1/+0 and flying. that's decent at worst on it's own! Add "flashback"? Nice. Evidently this card isn't hitting the right notes for everyone. That's ok. Just look at how much discussion a one mana uncommon aura has wrung up. This is at the very least a super intriguing spell for a lot of people.

Yes, I talked about that in the post that you quoted, about the spot where you would be casting it from the yard, and the post itself was in response to a back end flashback comparison.

I didn't discuss the front end of the card because that wasn't an issue in the post I was responding to.

But if we are looking for cheap evasive granting auras, you should probably be considering shimmering wings, which looks like a strong heroic and constellation enabler that grants evasion.

 

[ahadabans]

I'm rating the recur part of the card very highly because I've seen a lot of games where you have an aggressive deck that just needs a way to get one guy through to seal the deal. That is how I've seen silent departure used. It's not about the tempo loss of them recasting what you bounce, it's getting the blocker off the board so you can keep swinging.

Here's the thing for me. Mana cost is much less relevant than the effect you get. Endless One is an example of this. It's a weak card at all costs. What makes the card very playable is that it's what you need when you need it. And I'm more than willing to pay extra for that.

Gryff's Boon might not be what I want when I want and so I may end up looking at that 4 mana recur cost and being very unhappy with the ROI based on the board states I see it in. Very possible. But it could also be seriously tasty shit in a number of decks. I really don't know yet. I'm bummed about not getting repeatable heroic triggers. Constellation is great but I'm not sure that pushes it far enough for me. I'm looking at this more like equipment because you can keep playing it. 4 is a really expensive equip cost though, especially for flying and +1/+0, so I see both sides of this argument here. This card might be good and it might suck. I don't know.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I'm rating the recur part of the card very highly because I've seen a lot of games where you have an aggressive deck that just needs a way to get one guy through to seal the deal. That is how I've seen silent departure used. It's not about the tempo loss of them recasting what you bounce, it's getting the blocker off the board so you can keep swinging.

Here's the thing for me. Mana cost is much less relevant than the effect you get. Endless One is an example of this. It's a weak card at all costs. What makes the card very playable is that it's what you need when you need it. And I'm more than willing to pay extra for that.

Gryff's Boon might not be what I want when I want and so I may end up looking at that 4 mana recur cost and being very unhappy with the ROI based on the board states I see it in. Very possible. But it could also be seriously tasty shit in a number of decks. I really don't know yet. I'm bummed about not getting repeatable heroic triggers. Constellation is great but I'm not sure that pushes it far enough for me. I'm looking at this more like equipment because you can keep playing it. 4 is a really expensive equip cost though, especially for flying and +1/+0, so I see both sides of this argument here. This card might be good and it might suck. I don't know.

Is your aura module still the same? I was looking up cheap auras that grant flying, and there are some interesting ones.



I think FSR runs wings? It looks really good on paper at least for constellation and heroic triggers. Dragon wings looks like a pretty neat card, really like the cycling on it, and the shroud on desire seems like it could be strong, but makes it probably more of a late game play unless you are willing to risk card disadvantage.

My favorite of these, however, is the more expensive flight of fancy.

 

[ahadabans]

My main modular cube tutor list (450) is probably 95% accurate. I have not updated each module. I put the whole thing in cube tutor for my group and exactly zero people looked at it. So unless someone here really wants to see it, I'm not planning on bothering going forward. I manage my list in a spreadsheet and that works for me.

That said, I do still support heroic and enchantress and they are both in the same module now for better synergy. I feel like I have plenty of triggers for both, so I'm not really looking for more (hence my initial swap with guide). Is guide better? Almost definitely. But one thing that attracts me to Gryff's Boon is the endless recasting. You can't even 2 for 1 me if I have 5 mana. I can even play an interesting game to bait out removal on my least desirable body by making it fly and giving it +1/+0. I can then recast it on the guy I didn't want you to kill.

I know this is expensive, but there are times I have a guy on the board and I want to just ride him until my opponent deals with it. Building more board presence is not always the right play because overextending is a very real thing. I might have a better use for 4 mana, but this card is basically 4 mana to draw and play that same spell. It does not cost me a card.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

The equipment comparison btw is pretty astute, something like this?

Probably a pretty good base line for thinking about the card, sans constellation interactions.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Is your aura module still the same? I was looking up cheap auras that grant flying, and there are some interesting ones.



I think FSR runs wings? It looks really good on paper at least for constellation and heroic triggers. Dragon wings looks like a pretty neat card, really like the cycling on it, and the shroud on desire seems like it could be strong, but makes it probably more of a late game play unless you are willing to risk card disadvantage.

My favorite of these, however, is the more expensive flight of fancy.

You're gonna bash on Gryff's Boon and then hold up these three as "cheap and interesting" alternatives?

In the first place, the thing about these blue flying enchantments is that blue is much less likely to take advantage of them than white, which tends towards swarm aggro strategies already.

Meanwhile Dragon Wings... I mean, if we're going to be brutal card evaluators here, it's going to trigger off something like 3-4% of my own creatures, and probably similar amounts of most Riptider's cubes. This card is, at a best case, the worst Stratus Walk I've ever seen for a /X Big Creature Deck (a nonexistent archetype in my own list), and doesn't play the potential late-game role that Gryff's Boon does.

Aboshan's Desire... Threshold for shroud? I mean, I guess that's a great way to turn your Elite Vanguard variant into a Vaporkin, but if it fizzles, you're boned, it doesn't give any attack buff, and it's virtually only useful in the late game when Threshold is active. If we're waiting around for that, I'd rather just pay more off Gryff's Boon to give the +1/+0 and have the option to use the effect again if necessary.

Finally, Shimmering Wings is a fine recommendation, though I personally can't imagine picking it over Gryff's Boon unless I'm for some reason in a Eidolon of Blossoms deck, which seems probably not worth the pick, since sections tend to have far fewer enchantments than sections.

idk, for someone who likes flashback you sure are spending a lot of time evaluating this card from the angle of the flashback cost as costing a whole card. I don't see anyone gagging over sorcery speed deal 2, but Firebolt continues to be one of the best red cards ever.

 

[sigh]

A decent baseline when you think of it as a equipment, I guess, without the ability to come back from a counter, discard, or destruction. Also, even just this way it's above the curve compared to basically all the "flying-granting" equipments. Seems spot on for a uncommon-powered thingy.

Anyway, Hey! check this out For any cubes running Lab Maniac (you just have to discard/mill the salvage to start it up):

+

 

[ahadabans]

The equipment comparison btw is pretty astute, something like this?

Probably a pretty good base line for thinking about the card, sans constellation interactions.

Gryff's Boon is technically better, not just because of the constellation interactions but also because it cannot ever really be destroyed. Disenchant is not good enough as you can just play it again from the yard. It's also something that can feed a discard outlet and still be attached to something, so it has synergy there as well.

This is reasonably close to what the card is though. And I think it's playable.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

You're gonna bash on Gryff's Boon and then hold up these three as "cheap and interesting" alternatives?

In the first place, the thing about these blue flying enchantments is that blue is much less likely to take advantage of them than white, which tends towards swarm aggro strategies already.

Meanwhile Dragon Wings... I mean, if we're going to be brutal card evaluators here, it's going to trigger off something like 3-4% of my own creatures, and probably similar amounts of most Riptider's cubes. This card is, at a best case, the worst Stratus Walk I've ever seen for a /X Big Creature Deck (a nonexistent archetype in my own list), and doesn't play the potential late-game role that Gryff's Boon does.

Aboshan's Desire... Threshold for shroud? I mean, I guess that's a great way to turn your Elite Vanguard variant into a Vaporkin, but if it fizzles, you're boned, it doesn't give any attack buff, and it's virtually only useful in the late game when Threshold is active. If we're waiting around for that, I'd rather just pay more off Gryff's Boon to give the +1/+0 and have the option to use the effect again if necessary.

Finally, Shimmering Wings is a fine recommendation, though I personally can't imagine picking it over Gryff's Boon unless I'm for some reason in a Eidolon of Blossoms deck, which seems probably not worth the pick, since sections tend to have far fewer enchantments than sections.

idk, for someone who likes flashback you sure are spending a lot of time evaluating this card from the angle of the flashback cost as costing a whole card. I don't see anyone gagging over sorcery speed deal 2, but Firebolt continues to be one of the best red cards ever.

Well, I'm not recommending any of those cards, but since we're suddenly talking about cheap auras that grant flying (something we've never been in the market for before), I thought we might as well frame the power level of the front end effect that we are talking about. There is also angelic gift, arcanum wings, flight, ghostly wings, launch, and nimbus wings.

This isn't a flashback effect. We're just drawing analogies, and equip cost is probably way more accurate.

 

[sigh]

Well, I'm not recommending any of those cards, but since we're suddenly talking about cheap auras that grant flying (something we've never been in the market for before), I thought we might as well frame the power level of the front end effect that we are talking about. There is also angelic gift, arcanum wings, flight, ghostly wings, launch, and nimbus wings.

This isn't a flashback effect. We're just drawing analogies, and equip cost is probably way more accurate.

Convenient that Gryff's Boon literally blows each and every example you mention here and before out of the water. We probably haven't been in the market because there hasn't been an effect this powerful yet.

And stop being so negative-nancy and contrary. It's obviously not just equip, and it can't be flashback in the rules. But it's from the grave, and you can do it from a variety of situations where equip would no longer work, but it's functioning exactly like flashback would. Also your post damn near reads like a recommendation. Saying things are "neat" and "interesting", and mentioning people who run things, is often an implication of recommendation in this situation. Like come on.

AND even further, that equipment, if it were equip, is fine! it's strong! free equip is always awesome. Like if the creature isn't removed, that's a 3 mana savings out of 4 total on kitesail. Equipping again, you are still a mana ahead of kitesail. And I know people have looked into cheap equips that grant flying/made customs to get a better one. For example:
Icarus Mk. II

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I guess we found this set's Acolyte of the Inferno.

 

[blacksmithy]

Has anyone tested Gryff's Boon yet?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Convenient that Gryff's Boon literally blows each and every example you mention here and before out of the water. We probably haven't been in the market because there hasn't been an effect this powerful yet.

And stop being so negative-nancy and contrary. It's obviously not just equip, and it can't be flashback in the rules. But it's from the grave, and you can do it from a variety of situations where equip would no longer work, but it's functioning exactly like flashback would. Also your post damn near reads like a recommendation. Saying things are "neat" and "interesting", and mentioning people who run things, is often an implication of recommendation in this situation. Like come on.

AND even further, that equipment, if it were equip, is fine! it's strong! free equip is always awesome. Like if the creature isn't removed, that's a 3 mana savings out of 4 total on kitesail Equiping again, you are still a mana ahead of kitesail. And I know people have looked into cheap equips that grant flying/made customs to get a better one.

I'm not being negative or contrary: I'm being critical. I've been having a productive conversation with ahadaban about the card, where it would likely be played, what it works well with, and what effects its most similar too.

I realize I evidently offended some people on Sunday when I posted in the middle of a draft that the comparisons between the card and rancor were ridiculous (and they are) but surely we can move past that. I wasn't really policing my tonality at the time, as it was just a rush post, and I didn't think I would get this kind of response.

Kitesail seems like a pretty reasonable comparison, though I will agree that boon is at least marginally better in certain spots, as should be the case with it being an uncommon. 4cc cost on equip like effects is just really brutal though, and traditionally a deal breaker.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I guess we found this set's Acolyte of the Inferno.

Don't jump the gun yet. I have yet to fully share my thoughts on pale rider of trostad. The battle over kite sail +1 gryff's boon has completely occluded that, for the time being.

 

[genericco]

Seems a little narrow. Much of what lsv says today about the card in sealed limited can be applied to cube:

Gryff’s Boon is essentially an equipment that you can only move once it hits the graveyard with the upside of being very cheap the first time you cast it. I can see this being awesome in an aggressive deck, as it offers a good initial ability and a recurring threat, but you have to be sure you are attacking before this becomes appealing.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Seems a little narrow. Much of what lsv says today about the card in sealed limited can be applied to cube:

Except that it's way easier to engineer an attacking deck in cube drafts.

 

[ahadabans]

Except that it's way easier to engineer an attacking deck in cube drafts.

That's my thought as well. And I'm really trying to encourage more of this line of thinking too to get away from midrange durddle. Part of helping that is giving aggressive tools that have late game utility. Because the biggest road block for committed aggressive decks is not having a late game (in my group anyway).

 

[Eric Chan]

Okay, guys, ease up on the aggressive tone; save that for your attacking decks, as opposed to these forums. There's a couple of folks here taking Grillo's stance as if it were somehow a personal attack on them, and then responding in kind. C'mon, guys, give him a little credit; he's been around here for a while, and that's about the last thing someone like Grillo would do.

Let's keep the debate strictly to the cards as they're printed, and step back from attacking Grillo and his supposed 'tone'.

 

[ahadabans]

Tap two Swamps.

Play Doom Blade targeting... Grillo.

Tap a Plains.

Enchant myself with Gryff's Boon.

Swing.

 

[RavebornMuse]

I think we'd probably all be better-served if the people interested in the concept tested it (which for some, like me, won't be for another month) than debate back and forth over who's too critical or who's too optimistic, and I'd say that applies to every single card, be it Nahiri, Gigafrog, Gryff's Boon, or Pale Rider. We'll know better in the next month or so which of these cards are truly worth the effort to make big comments about and which are questionable includes we all promptly drop and scorn openly when someone else suggests them. As far as I'm concerned, this thread has served its purpose for me in reviewing the initial spoilers, and unless anyone has a new card to talk about, I don't know that I have anything else to contribute prior to actually testing. I'd guess a lot of us are in that boat.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Okay, guys, ease up on the aggressive tone; save that for your attacking decks, as opposed to these forums. There's a couple of folks here taking Grillo's stance as if it were somehow a personal attack on them, and then responding in kind. C'mon, guys, give him a little credit; he's been around here for a while, and that's about the last thing someone like Grillo would do.

Let's keep the debate strictly to the cards as they're printed, and step back from attacking Grillo and his supposed 'tone'.

Thank you eric for making sure we keep things civil around here. I know I can get a bit intense sometimes when I'm talking about certain cube related topics (mostly combo)

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Tap two Swamps.

Play Doom Blade targeting... Grillo.

Tap a Plains.

Enchant myself with Gryff's Boon.

Swing.

I think on that clock I'll be all right

But as far as cards that actually caught my eye from the set

Is this like another lust for war?