Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Heh, sorry. Yeah, I've been eyeing Liliana's Reaver for a while now, but only acquired a copy this week. It's so much more interesting than Skinrender (which is a very fine card nonetheless really), the value is unreal if it can connect.

Macar can see play in removal heavy decks. It also combines really well with Icy Manipulator and Springlead Drum. Opposition would have been godly, but I cut that from my cube as well because I'll never get to play nonblue decks otherwise :D
 
Reaver into sinkrender sounds like a great couple of turns. Better if you have a vendetta or disfigure on hand.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I wonder how the removal of 187s in favor of guys who need to attack affects the power of black control.

Actually, I don't wonder. I just want to point out what's happening here, not that there's anything wrong. But I would expect this to have no small impact on set balance.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I wonder how the removal of 187s in favor of guys who need to attack affects the power of black control.

Actually, I don't wonder. I just want to point out what's happening here, not that there's anything wrong. But I would expect this to have no small impact on set balance.

Yeah, Macar is much more of a pure tempo card than a control card. Bounce a guy, crash in, opponent has to choose between unfavorable blocks, not replaying his guy, or replaying his guy and having him die on the inspired trigger. Shriekmaw is just a pure answer. You also want to have weaker removal options to justify all of that work.

I thought he was an interesting choice because of his odd place on the curve (which reaver also inhabits). You have to clear a way for him on turn five and he doesn’t kill anything until turn 6, and needs support to do it. My context for attack for value cards is that they are "slow" at 3cc on my curve.
 

Laz

Developer
What is some examples of strong vs weaker black removal?

vs ?


Well, there is no shortage of strong 2-mana instant speed Black removal, from the original Terror through the most recent addition to that club, Ultimate Price. If you want to tone it back a little, Soul Reap and Murder are pretty reasonable cards. I have a lot of love for Tragic Slip, which is removal that you have to do a little bit of work for, and it plays wonderfully.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Wait, Jason runs sorcery-speed removal...? I think with a little more nudging, it won't be long before we see him trot out Volcanic Hammer alongside all his Brainstorms and Birthing Pods.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Honestly now that murder has been printed, I don't think we need murder with a downside and 5 times as much text as it needs to have
 
I played a cube with that card in it once, and that wasn't a very fun cube, so I have a hard time picturing anyones cube getting any better by including that one in it.
 

Laz

Developer
If there had been a reprinting of it with the oracle text, I might even have run it.

Real Oracle text or MODO Oracle text? On MODO it suffers(ed?) from a fun bug where the Oracle text basically read 'When Oubiliette enters the battlefield, exile target creature.'
 

CML

Contributor
I considered running it for a while, and its a reasonable choice if you are looking to run that effect in black. If there had been a reprinting of it with the oracle text, I might even have run it.


99% of the fun is the stupid shit people come up with when they try to pronounce it

watching people pronounce oubliette is like watching them spell definitely
 
Make all your white and black removal spells cost 3-4 and see how much fun people have. It'll be a blast I promise. Oh also try to make all your wraths cost 6 or more mana and be sure to make as much of your removal in white permanent based as possible. I'm talking oblivion rings, Banisher Priest, Faiths Fetters etc. Stuff you feel bad losing or dumb wrathing after. I'm sure you will find the experience informative.

I remember having a murder in my deck in peasant, I think I was pretty unhappy playing with it.

Are people like aware removal is supposed to be a tempo play for the most part? Cube is also at no shortage for creatures that give you value beyond attacking and blocking so these one for one trades are only really interesting when you are making them waste more of their turn compared to what you spent so you can hopefully be cultivating some other advantage. Control decks are at such a disadvantage when you start maxing up on clunkly removal options. Most cubes don't run a lot of strong blockers so you can't even really get on the limiting good attacks plan. If I'm spending my whole turn killing your guy with grisly spectacle I'm really not going to have any time to play my careful consideration, not to mention the fact that in many cubes control still struggles to be active enough in the early turns (See CMLs articles regarding jackal pup vs jtms) or to keep up with midranged 4 and 5 cost creatures that defy removal or god help you some creature generating planeswalker.

I'm having a harder time figuring out why people are so down on strong removal these days, it's kinda necessary in this Huntmaster of the Fells and Prophetic Flamespeaker world. Are threat's decks really struggling? Wizards has been all about making creatures and creature generators better for ages and removal has stuck to terror power level. Is the idea to make voltron decks playable?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Make all your white and black removal spells cost 3-4 and see how much fun people have. It'll be a blast I promise. Oh also try to make all your wraths cost 6 or more mana and be sure to make as much of your removal in white permanent based as possible. I'm talking oblivion rings, Banisher Priest, Faiths Fetters etc. Stuff you feel bad losing or dumb wrathing after. I'm sure you will find the experience informative.

It’s not that strong removal or weak removal is better or worse, they are just different. Strong removal gravitates towards the card advantage/answers end of the spectrum (which you have a strong bias towards), while weakened removal gravitates towards the board position/threats end of the spectrum. WOTZ has made lots of great limited formats with weaker or otherwise limited removal in order to place the emphasis on threats and creating a synergistic board, rather than answers and controlling the board. This is nothing new.

I actually did everything you describe here to my cube, and I have no regrets. I also currently run-wait for it-only one wrath effect!
 
Opponent goes t1 Champion of the Parish, t2 Gather the Townsfolk on the play. Hits you for 3. You untap and Volcanic Hammer the champ. They untap, hit you for 2, then play Fabled Hero. You untap, cast Augur of Bolas, hit a Hero's Downfall, pass. They untap, Bonds of Faith their Fabled Hero and smash you, leaving up 1W.

Opponent goes t1 Champion of the parish, t2 Gather the Townsfolk on the play. Before combat you Lightning Bolt the champ. Untap, t2 Augur of Bolas hitting a Hero's Downfall. They untap, no attacks, no spells for the turn. You untap, land go. They untap, land, Fabled Hero leaving up W, go.

Slowing down your removal has a cascading effect on how games play out, especially if the point is to focus the power of the format into synergies. If you need to hit your "combos" to do powerful things, being on the play becomes an even bigger advantage. If being on the draw means you are more than a turn behind in terms of development all the time, having your removal set you even further behind doesn't help! Your removal might not even work if you fall just a little bit too far behind!

WOTZ has made lots of great limited formats with weaker or otherwise limited removal in order to place the emphasis on threats and creating a synergistic board, rather than answers and controlling the board. This is nothing new.

They also fill those formats with random vanilla creatures whose only role is to attack and block; even some creatures whose only real role is to block. In fact the P/T dynamic between those boring creatures is probably more important to the health of the format than whatever removal vs. synergy dynamic is at work.

Triple Theros was a weak removal, synergy/board position format. There were a lot of cool things to do with your mana every turn and such. The problem was that threats outpaced the removal by quite a bit and also outpaced your opponent's ability to meaningfully block, so games often came down to races. While it was a reasonable format, I don't think anybody who has played triple Theros more than once thinks "this is a great format that I want to relive constantly through my cube."
 
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