Chris Taylor
Contributor
It's way too late
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Dom Harvey
Contributor
These symmetrical effects are rarely discussed, understandably, but has anyone here tried it? There's some tension because the aggressive decks that want it most tend to have lower curves and want to play multiple spells in a turn, but the control decks they want to slow down are hurt a lot by it.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I ran them a long time ago when I was trying to make aggro work, in a format being consumed by ramp. They were an early, crude, and brutish tool to try to force aggro into relevence, at a point where I would have been happy with them as fun police, rather than a dynamic or interesting archetype.
The prison cards ended up being universally best in artifact or green ramp decks, backfiring completly, and strangling aggro even more. This was due to ramp being the deck that could most efficiently break symmetry on them. Worse, when the mana tax cards did come down, they just created dull gamestates, where people couldn't do fun things (unless you were ramp!). Sometimes bad drafters would pick them, and run them in completly inapproriate decks out of ignorance, ruining their own game experience, and those of their opponents, in the process.
Miserable, miserable, miserable cards.
The prison cards ended up being universally best in artifact or green ramp decks, backfiring completly, and strangling aggro even more. This was due to ramp being the deck that could most efficiently break symmetry on them. Worse, when the mana tax cards did come down, they just created dull gamestates, where people couldn't do fun things (unless you were ramp!). Sometimes bad drafters would pick them, and run them in completly inapproriate decks out of ignorance, ruining their own game experience, and those of their opponents, in the process.
Miserable, miserable, miserable cards.
Dominaria spoiler
Knight of Grace
1W
Creature — Human Knight
2/2
First strike
Hexproof from black (This creature can't be the target of black spells or abilities your opponents control.)
Knight of Grace gets +1/+0 as long as any player controls a black permanent.
Wizards of the Coast hasn’t been reading on Riptidelab. They are evoluting (is that a word?) in the wrong direction!
Knight of Grace
1W
Creature — Human Knight
2/2
First strike
Hexproof from black (This creature can't be the target of black spells or abilities your opponents control.)
Knight of Grace gets +1/+0 as long as any player controls a black permanent.
Wizards of the Coast hasn’t been reading on Riptidelab. They are evoluting (is that a word?) in the wrong direction!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
The word you are looking for is evolving
But how is this evolving in the wrong direction?
But how is this evolving in the wrong direction?
Velrum do you say that because it's hexproof and protection balled into one?
I think it's an improvement. "Hexproof from black" is less annoying than either hexproof or protection individually.
I think it's an improvement. "Hexproof from black" is less annoying than either hexproof or protection individually.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, me too. It offers some protection against a color, without being obnoxiously unkillable.
Well that was impossible because I started this discussion here a few hours before I started the Dominaria thread. Reading is tech.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That doesn't invalidate his request, now does it? I think it's a good idea to keep spoilers to the Dominaria thread, so that those who want to avoid the spoilers can safely do so by simply ignoring the clearly tagged [DOM] topic.
The Dominaria spoiler thread wasn’t even created at the time. It would impossible to post in a thread that did not exist, right?
Your first response to the topic was also written before the Dominaria thread was created on this page.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I think you misunderstood what McMenno was asking for. He asks us to keep DOM spoilers to the DOM thread from now on, which is a very reasonable request. Your "reading is tech" remark makes no sense, honestly.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
You don't blame him? You're literally berating him with that "reading is tech" bit. Like, how is McMenno supposed to interpret your post in any other way?
Also, the way to avoid this situation in the future is to not post spoilers in non-spoiler threads. And if the spoiler thread doesn't exist yet, create it (like you did) and then post the spoiler you want to talk about in that thread. Mind you, I'm not blaming you for this situation, shit happens after all, and you couldn't have known there were people here who don't want to read the spoilers. I'm just saying there is a way to avoid this situation in the future.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Sorry James! I get a bit terse when reading terse phrases like "reading is tech". I find them needlessly rude. I'll try to let it slide next time. You're right that me replying in a terse manner doesn't add to the vibe. Sorry Velrun for harping on your choice of words!
Back on topic: the more I think about it, the more I prefer hexproof from <color> overboth hexproof and protection from <color>. There's this card Fiendslayer Paladin that sort of explored this design space a few years ago, and it was actually kind of underwhelming. Hexproof adds abilities (both activated and triggered) to the defensive mix, which I think might be just the right kind of color specific hate. It strikes a fine balance between flavor and mechanics. For example, where White Knight against Black Knight devolves into a race into who can deal lethal damage first (usually the black deck back in the day, thanks to Unholy Strength trumping Holy Strength), Knight of Grace would just trade with its theoretical counterpart, meaning the opposing player can have more meaningful interactions with Knight of Grace than with White Knight and other knights inspired by the originals.
As an aside, Knight of Grace subtly encourages a deck, because that bonus +1/+0 also rnables off of your own black permanents. That's both weird and fascinating design, and it could make for a pretty bonkers aggro card!
Back on topic: the more I think about it, the more I prefer hexproof from <color> overboth hexproof and protection from <color>. There's this card Fiendslayer Paladin that sort of explored this design space a few years ago, and it was actually kind of underwhelming. Hexproof adds abilities (both activated and triggered) to the defensive mix, which I think might be just the right kind of color specific hate. It strikes a fine balance between flavor and mechanics. For example, where White Knight against Black Knight devolves into a race into who can deal lethal damage first (usually the black deck back in the day, thanks to Unholy Strength trumping Holy Strength), Knight of Grace would just trade with its theoretical counterpart, meaning the opposing player can have more meaningful interactions with Knight of Grace than with White Knight and other knights inspired by the originals.
As an aside, Knight of Grace subtly encourages a
deck, because that bonus +1/+0 also rnables off of your own black permanents. That's both weird and fascinating design, and it could make for a pretty bonkers aggro card!Seriously Ondezeeboot stop acting police.
I did what I could for this site by actually writing “SPOILER ALERT”. If you somehow wish to discuss this further text me a PM so the rest of the community does not have to listen to this.
In the future I will not spoil in a non-spoiler thread. Again, sorry
I did what I could for this site by actually writing “SPOILER ALERT”. If you somehow wish to discuss this further text me a PM so the rest of the community does not have to listen to this.
In the future I will not spoil in a non-spoiler thread. Again, sorry
But then that thread would become a hive of innovation for developing the utility sleeve draft!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, I don't think we could keep such a topic on topic, honestly...
So I'm intrigued by the Storm as value idea that's percolating around a few of the threads in here. I was looking at suspend cards in Temur colors to support the archetype, and remembered this Modern gem. Anyone have any experience with it that doesn't involve cheating it out with Cascade effects?
What would a cube Hypergenesis deck look like?