Card/Deck Supporting Storm
- Thread starter VibeBox
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Storm is one of the sicker mistakes in magic but it's so inherently difficult to balance and what you get is a solitaire puzzle that fizzles, if you even get your critical mass of enablers
Guys
Guys
Let's collab on a cube w/ a vintage-style environment and end this storm thing (or accidentally perfect it)
Guys
Guys
Let's collab on a cube w/ a vintage-style environment and end this storm thing (or accidentally perfect it)
Storm is something that sounds good until you play it. Either it works and you just steam roll people. Or it doesn't and you look like a clown with a cobbled together pile of garbage for a deck. It doesn't really matter though to outside observers because in both cases you are involved in a non-interative game.
Now I'll freely admit I'm no expert on Storm decks and have only played them in easy-mode (i.e. with fast mana). They certainly have a lot going on and require many decisions while piloting. They are not easy decks to play but that doesn't alter the fact that they usually have zero interaction with the other player across from you.
If you still want to run Storm, I'm of the humble opinion you'd need these three things to make it work in cube:
1. Powered environment (at least fast mana)
2. 8 drafters every time (i.e. draft the whole cube so you see all the pieces)
3. Experienced drafters that can read the table and know when to jump into storm and when to abort mission before you end up with an unplayable pile. Not everyone can do this.
I've tried a couple times to make Storm non-poisonous and I've not found a way to do it. It never gets out of my testing room.
Now I'll freely admit I'm no expert on Storm decks and have only played them in easy-mode (i.e. with fast mana). They certainly have a lot going on and require many decisions while piloting. They are not easy decks to play but that doesn't alter the fact that they usually have zero interaction with the other player across from you.
If you still want to run Storm, I'm of the humble opinion you'd need these three things to make it work in cube:
1. Powered environment (at least fast mana)
2. 8 drafters every time (i.e. draft the whole cube so you see all the pieces)
3. Experienced drafters that can read the table and know when to jump into storm and when to abort mission before you end up with an unplayable pile. Not everyone can do this.
I've tried a couple times to make Storm non-poisonous and I've not found a way to do it. It never gets out of my testing room.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Its actually really easy to support non-poisonous storm in unpowered environments because of bouncelands. The problem is the deck just murders everything.
So in short, storm is just GRBS in generally all RTLCs?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
More of less. People generally want to relax and have fun during cube draft and storm condenses the game in a way that I found many players don't enjoy.
If you have players open to a more cut throat or competitive environment, than you could probably start putting something together.
If you have players open to a more cut throat or competitive environment, than you could probably start putting something together.
At what power level though? Because every Storm deck I tested got owned by my efficient aggro decks. It wasn't consistent enough.
I'd love to see your build and how you play it. Because if such a thing were possible (non-poisonous storm), I'd consider it. I just don't think there is.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Pauperish power level for me, though I suppose anywhere you could reasonably squeeze bouncelands and land untappers would be good enough. I know meltyman runs them in his environment, which is pretty high powered, so I don't know.
Anyways, this was the culprit that caused me to gut a lot of my storm support, though I kept the bare minimum, because the deck is just so sweet.
I took the actual storm cards out, because they just aren't needed anymore.
Anyways, this was the culprit that caused me to gut a lot of my storm support, though I kept the bare minimum, because the deck is just so sweet.
I took the actual storm cards out, because they just aren't needed anymore.
Gotcha. More combo than true storm, but a similar shell (focusing on making lots of mana in this case). That's cool actually.
Part of why it works so well there is the breaking of singleton on key cards (stating the obvious here - but calling it out because I originally tried to avoid that in testing Storm and it's a lot harder from a consistency standpoint).
That's really the flavor I think you'd have to focus on though - a super ramp combo version. Either with the land untappers/bounce land version or with something like heartbeat of spring/dictate of Karametra. That's the version that I tested which came the closest to being viable since you have a plan B if you don't find your storm cards. Still wasn't a fan though. Your version is better than what I tried because it has more applications than just going off on one turn.
Part of why it works so well there is the breaking of singleton on key cards (stating the obvious here - but calling it out because I originally tried to avoid that in testing Storm and it's a lot harder from a consistency standpoint).
That's really the flavor I think you'd have to focus on though - a super ramp combo version. Either with the land untappers/bounce land version or with something like heartbeat of spring/dictate of Karametra. That's the version that I tested which came the closest to being viable since you have a plan B if you don't find your storm cards. Still wasn't a fan though. Your version is better than what I tried because it has more applications than just going off on one turn.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I'm pretty happy with running the pieces singleton at this point. While its a deck you don't want to see too much, the feeling of exhilaration a player gets from piloting it is so great, I don't want to lose it completly.
hmmm.....what was the total shell you were thinking to run with dictate/heartbeat? I could see that working, but you would have to really revamp the focus of ramp decks away from elves, and more towards cards like voyaging satyr. Maybe try some of the higher power lands that produce multiple mana per tap? Like tolarian academy, nykthos, shrine to nix ect.
hmmm.....what was the total shell you were thinking to run with dictate/heartbeat? I could see that working, but you would have to really revamp the focus of ramp decks away from elves, and more towards cards like voyaging satyr. Maybe try some of the higher power lands that produce multiple mana per tap? Like tolarian academy, nykthos, shrine to nix ect.
I tested a URG version with lots of ramp and card draw. But the direction I took it was too narrow (Dream Halls/ Mind's Desire / Memory Jar), super ramp was there to help the turn you "go off" and as a backup plan (drop something nasty) should the storm pieces just not come up. When it works it's a thing of beauty, but it would be virtually impossible to draft in my current environment (never have 8 drafters). And it's just too combo. Only I would draft it and I would either destroy people with it or epically lose. It isn't likely going to be a net positive experience so I've completely moved on. But for the record I like what you've got going on a lot more than what I was trying to do. So if I come back to it, that is what I will look at for inspiration.
Honestly, I'm looking at your Innistrad cube. It's my favorite on this site because it's so unique. I always come back to it when I want to shake things up. I love graveyard interactions. The more of that I can incorporate the better. With that in mind, I'm trying to do two things with my next build:
1. Introduce a modular concept where the cube scales with the number of drafters. This way I can run some more narrow arch types and all the pieces will show up during the draft (while still keeping variety from draft to draft).
2. Add more graveyard / synergy and take out some of the power (but not all of it - some guys like straight forward power decks, so I don't want everything to be mill myself into worm harvest, etc.).
I don't have a consistent group, so I can't do this the right way (iterative testing). I have to do most of this on my own and that means a huge amount of theory crafting to get something workable and then limited testing (what I can do myself mostly). It's fun, but it's taking forever.
Honestly, I'm looking at your Innistrad cube. It's my favorite on this site because it's so unique. I always come back to it when I want to shake things up. I love graveyard interactions. The more of that I can incorporate the better. With that in mind, I'm trying to do two things with my next build:
1. Introduce a modular concept where the cube scales with the number of drafters. This way I can run some more narrow arch types and all the pieces will show up during the draft (while still keeping variety from draft to draft).
2. Add more graveyard / synergy and take out some of the power (but not all of it - some guys like straight forward power decks, so I don't want everything to be mill myself into worm harvest, etc.).
I don't have a consistent group, so I can't do this the right way (iterative testing). I have to do most of this on my own and that means a huge amount of theory crafting to get something workable and then limited testing (what I can do myself mostly). It's fun, but it's taking forever.
I can longpost (w/ decklists) tomorrow if you're interested but I've been pretty impressed with a group hug / mill control schema as far as big mana goes, as well as the comparatively more boring ramp/midrange shells. Mindshrieker has been amazing and USZ makes me feel so good. (also careful consideration if you don't want to go that far)
Coolest viable one so far was a brUG control with Howling Mine, Lab Man, shrieker and Loam
Coolest viable one so far was a brUG control with Howling Mine, Lab Man, shrieker and Loam
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Decks involving laboratory maniac and/or mindshrieker I am always happy to see.
Okay, I thought I had more than one of these written down, whoops.
if I slot Tasigur at one the curve almost looks fine (2-1)
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Lots of graveyard recursion and flashback meant it mostly self-milled, but it did come close to milling someone out with Mindshrieker a few games. I wasn't piloting but I think it combo'd out maybe one game in three. the Pack Rat/Vengevine plan b was real.
self-mill wins: 2
enemy mill wins: 0, but very close!
kiora ults: 1
Generally speaking, this comes together for me as a slower
deck, though , and definitely show up too. I took a fair bit of inspiration from this Adam Thomas article and iterated a few times to make sure it wasn't taking up too much space. It's not so much mill as it is exhaustion - trade with the opponent, draw them out of their answers, and cling to life with blockers and removal. There are a few ways to go on the offensive, ranging from intricate (lab man) to brute force (ashiok + hedron crab) to obtuse ('on my upkeep, flashback memory's journey'). The straight-up mill cards were a big 'ol failure but 'target player' incremental mill and draw work well in both regular and Lab Man decks (think way closer to Thought Scour than Tome Scour)At a certain point this post turns into sophistry where i pretend i know more about lab man decks than you do but the general idea (and also in the AT article!) is to stabilize, and then every turn ask 'cards in library?' until your foe concedes.
e: I'm coming back to this post like 6 months later to say that I'm not as into this idea as I was at the time. Mill sucks, don't try to mill your opponents, self-mill is great, lab man is cool but very clunky without a bunch of tools. Howling Mine worked, 'fatigue' control felt more fun and challenging than mill control, the busted enablers aren't where you want to be.
I recently re-added the storm archetype to my Cube and boy did I draw a shiny deck last week.
Ones
1 force of will
1 gush
1 preordain
1 force spike
1 high tide
1 mystical tutor
1 brainstorm
1 lotus petal
1 everflowing chalice
Twos
1 izzet signet
1 Simic signet
1 scroll rack
1 brain freeze
1 impulse
Threes
1 thirst for knowledge
1 frantic search
1 wheel of fortune
1 coalition relic
Fours
1 fact or fiction
1 turnabout
Fives
Sixes
1 time spiral
1 mind’s desire
1 dig through time
1 emrakul the aeons torn
Edit - Sorry I can't manage to make the deck view work
and I had Jace the mind sculptor, oath of druids and exploration in my sideboard...
I went 1-1-1 but the games were so close it could've easy been a 3-0 deck.
Needless to say I'm very happy to broing the archetype back in. It made for some really tense games where the other player's stopped playing their match just to watch.
The sheer energy it produced in the room was awesome.
Ones
1 force of will
1 gush
1 preordain
1 force spike
1 high tide
1 mystical tutor
1 brainstorm
1 lotus petal
1 everflowing chalice
Twos
1 izzet signet
1 Simic signet
1 scroll rack
1 brain freeze
1 impulse
Threes
1 thirst for knowledge
1 frantic search
1 wheel of fortune
1 coalition relic
Fours
1 fact or fiction
1 turnabout
Fives
Sixes
1 time spiral
1 mind’s desire
1 dig through time
1 emrakul the aeons torn
Edit - Sorry I can't manage to make the deck view work
and I had Jace the mind sculptor, oath of druids and exploration in my sideboard...
I went 1-1-1 but the games were so close it could've easy been a 3-0 deck.
Needless to say I'm very happy to broing the archetype back in. It made for some really tense games where the other player's stopped playing their match just to watch.
The sheer energy it produced in the room was awesome.
After playing with the card, I don't think Thousand-Year Storm is ever going to leave my cube. Turns out you don't need to include a whole bunch of poisonous enablers and payoffs that maybe come together once every 15 drafts. You just need to have a normal blue/red section with some cheap cantrips and burn, maybe with some green ramp spells like Grow from the Ashes to get really degenerate. Why run Empty the Warrens when you can go Opt -> Think Twice -> Flashback Think Twice -> Dragon Fodder? All of those are perfectly reasonable cards in a ton of other decks, when all of a sudden you get a whole other crazy deck out of nowhere with the addition of, and I can't stress this enough, ONE CARD. It's the most lightweight and flexible way to support storm I can think of.
How does sentinel tower fair as a second build around for the "play a ton of spells the same turn" deck that runs Thousand-Year Storm?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Not sure how much you can make out, but this was a wild turn! Took full advantage of both Heartbeat of Spring and Mana Flare sticking, and the untap all lands post combat custom
Sentinel Tower would have dealt 10 here. Also enough to kill the opponent with Geistblast on Clan Defiance!
Sentinel Tower would have dealt 10 here. Also enough to kill the opponent with Geistblast on Clan Defiance!
Do you feel like Clan Defiance is worth the gold slot over say, Fireball?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Well, I've got a few extra gold slots compared to most cubes, so... Hard to say? Clan Defiance certainly is powerful when you can use all three modes, but I guess it's used most often as a Ravaging Blaze, which honestly looks like a fine option if you're looking for a monocolored alternative.
pretty sure i'm the biggest Clan Defiance booster here and I would say yes, it's definitely worth a gold slot. These RG beater decks (as well as value decks like Jund or RUG) want to run really flexible removal, they want reach, and they want an answer to problematic flyers that isn't dead later. Getting the full 3-for-1 is incredible (and it's a strong answer to the dragons in my format) but getting to just kill a guy, go face, and maybe pop a spirit token is already really fantastic in my opinion. Just a flexible card with a lot of depth in different contexts that I'm happy to main-deck. Remember also that you can read the 'to target player' line as 'to target Planeswalker', at which point suddenly it starts looking very Cube-able imo...
Not sure how much you can make out, but this was a wild turn! Took full advantage of both Heartbeat of Spring and Mana Flare sticking, and the untap all lands post combat custom
Sentinel Tower would have dealt 10 here. Also enough to kill the opponent with Geistblast on Clan Defiance!
What are you playing in?
MTG Forge.
It's pretty great because it allows custom sets to be input. There is only so much a magic AI can do, so while it isn't the most optimal play experience, it is the nicest looking solitaire magic app there is.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'm fairly good at it, after coding dozens of cards over the past few years
There's a few areas that are really hard though, copying stuff always trips me up, for example. Also, keywords are hardcoded, so if you invent a new keyword, you have to work around that and actually write everything out. For some things that's easily done, but I've had a handful of cards that were literally unscriptable because there was no code available to handle the specific spell effects I had in mind. (Can't remember exactly which those were, sadly, since I've scrapped those cards long ago.)