The 'Draw-a-Card' cube

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I think that sounds pretty exciting! We've talked about madness some on this board buto I don't think it's ever found a home. There are some decent red and black discard outlets as well!

 

[Chriskool]

Unfortunately the non Graveborn Deck Series Animate Dead is just too damn confusing to use. Enchant Dead Creature? Can that be fetched with Heliod's Pilgrim?

Enchant "anything" is an aura ... unless WotC ninja-edited a particular card to not be an aura (the hover image printing claims an enchantment- ughhhh). what really gets confusing is trying to figure out what auras are legal for Tallowisp/c]... :( Funny you mentioned this card, as I helped someone build a BG selfmill casual deck at the LGS this winter, and she bought Graveborn Animates to have the most clear rules text!

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

This looks really fun. I might build along to see where it goes. It would be fun to have a super low power old school format.

I wanted to organize some of chris' thoughts on mechanics, to make sure I am understanding them correctly:

1. U/B graveyard exile (skaab based, midrange deck)
2. G/W advocate (disruptive aggro/midrange deck? Advocates set back graveyard and cycling strategies while powering tempo)
3. B/u/g graveyard order matters recursive aggro (disruptive aggro deck)
4. R/B cycling hellbent (aggro)
5. Spellshaper (cross color mechanic support)
6. G/x land recursion (retrace ect. Control deck using discarded lands as a source of board control/card advantage. Sort of a non-narrow version of burning vengeance control)

Mana fixing ideas
1. Mirage fetches
2. cycling lands
3. shocks
4. grand coliseum

Thats a pretty good outline for a format. Hellbent aggro, recursive aggro, a few disruptive decks, broad mechanical support from the spellshapers, a U midrange deck, and a grindy green deck using land recursion as a source of board control/card advantage. I really like the graveyard order matters idea, because it forces you to be strategic with your cycles, and provides another disruptive aggro deck. I think I like bouncelands over shocks, since they give you lands to discard.

Other archetype options:

1. Madness: U/G aggro disruption, R/G midrange, B/R midrange
2. U/G/b self mill/combo: Spider spawning, haunting misery, laboratory maniac

Really like where this is going though. The idea of having 3 fair combo decks is enticing, especially when 2 of them run along similar but competing axes. It helps give the format that sandbox feel.

 

[Laz]

Grillo, Chris... can one of you guys build that environment? It sounds pretty awesome. It isn't quite the design space that I am exploring here, but seems like a partner space, with a similar power level and overlapping themes. When expressed how Grillo just expressed it, it sounds really appealing.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Yeah, these recent styles of cubes have really opened my eyes for lower powered formats with a lot of thought around game play put into them.



I think you mentioned auruas earlier. There's an interesting, in my opinion, overlap between auras as heroic enablers and as removal. I saw a pretty nutty GR deck in a ROE draft played by LSV, with gnarlid and 3 lust for wars. It had a really cool tempo vibe, with gnarlid growing as a threat as you dealt with opposing creatures

 

[Chriskool]

Grillo, Chris... can one of you guys build that environment? It sounds pretty awesome. It isn't quite the design space that I am exploring here, but seems like a partner space, with a similar power level and overlapping themes. When expressed how Grillo just expressed it, it sounds really appealing.

... maybe ... ? We are sort of migrating away from the cantrip focus. And... I feel like I do need a conventionally-designed cube. (Bonus: I already own a set of shocks!)

Here is a good "first, concrete step": which cycling cards are earmarked for inclusion? I think that building an environment where this class of cards has non-cycling impact is the most important piece to fashion.

Additionally, which cantrips/slowtrips/similar cards will be joining the cyclers?

 

[Laz]

Here is a good "first, concrete step": which cycling cards are earmarked for inclusion? I think that building an environment where this class of cards has non-cycling impact is the most important piece to fashion.

I took a concrete step! I made a cubetutor entry!


Lets explore how Madness might work. Where Vintage Masters had madness in UG, I am going to have it here in RB, with perhaps a little bleed outwards. There are actually far more Black and Red cards than Blue and Green cards with Madness, since Torment, which featured Madness heavily was so heavily skewed towards Black.

Cool cards with Madness are as follows:

There are some other cards, like Big Game Hunter or Gorgon Recluse that are semi-interesting, but probably not where I want to be. It is unlikely that I would run all of the burn spells either, with Volcanic Eruption the most likely to be cut due to how Red intense it is. Dark Withering is also a card, but I really dislike how all or nothing it is.

Given that a 'good' Madness deck in Vintage masters had 2-3 Arrogant Wurms and a bunch of stuff to do from the yard, I think simply including a pair of Reckless Wurms is probably enough. I don't think you need a lot of cards with Madness to craft a deck around it, since the madness cards are often just additional value on top of what your effects that involved discarding were giving you.

Probably the more important part of the madness theme are the discard outlets. I was looking to run a reasonable quantity of looting effects in Red anyway (looting is basically cycling right?), so they pull double duty here.

Putrid Imp might look a little odd here, but there is a dearth of decent Threshold cards. Maybe I will realise that this is a mistake before too long... I will probably double up on Tormenting Voice. This sort of double-cycling looks like the sort of effect that I want Red to have.

I can also bleed the discard outlets into Red, and these are the two I have my eye upon:


I have been keeping an eye out for a home for Mercurial Chemister for a while now, and this looks like a reasonable fit. Discarding Reckless Wurm to him seems like living the dream, the odd low-powered, 'there is no Flametongue Kavu in this environment'-dream.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

How about some cards like:



Thats basically in play cycling, which adds an interesting element.

 

[Laz]

I like it Grillo. Actually one of my favourite cards for this cube is Jeskai Sage, which is similar in-play cycling. I like how Prowess interacts with the death-trigger, as when an opponent swings in with this 1/1 into your bigger blocker there is a fun little bluffing game. 'Do they just want the death trigger? Do they have enough spells to trade/eat my guy? Do I just take it to be safe and deny them the card?'

I added a lot of cards to the cubetutor, but it still feels a little disjointed. I might need to lay things out some more instead of just throwing things in willy-nilly.

 

[Laz]

For some reason I think I will have a better shot of getting everything to play nicely together if I put together some sort of environment cheat-sheet. This is starting to feel a lot like building a retail limited set, normally with these things I can rely upon the general power level of cards to cover my faults, but when you need players to think of a 5-mana 4/4 as fine, I can't really do that.

Colour Wheel looks like this:
WURBG
Supporting Allied Colours

5-colour themes:
Cantripping cards
Enchantments, with a focus upon Auras - Clustered in Bant
Cycling, with a focus upon Creatures - Clustered in Jund

Colour pair identities:
WU - Heroic/Prowess
UR - Spells Matter
RB - Madness
BG - Cards in graveyard matter
GW - Enchantress

- Heroic/Prowess:
Heroic bleeds a little into Green, Prowess bleeds a little into Red. These comprise the main aggressive colours in the cube. There are not a lot of really strong incentive cards for these, rather a critical mass is required. These mechanics are intended to be supported by the large number of cantripping cards, allowing these to be chained together for Prowess, while targeting Heroic creatures.

- Spells Matter
This is probably more accurately a Red theme, since much of Blues contribution to spells-matter is Prowess.
Young Pyromancer and Guttersnipe are the poster children of this one. Talrand is an option as a strong incentive, but making 2/2 flyers might be a little hard for many decks to deal with. 1/1s are a lot safer.

- Madness
Madness doesn't really have the depth to be a fully fledged theme. Then again, neither does Spells Matter really. It simply has some incentive cards, then the supporting cards are ones that would have been played anyway. In this case, Red looting cards, and this may be stretching it, but there are a few Black cards that require discard as an activation cost (Spellshapers, Undead Gladiator, Putrid Imp).

- Cards in Yard matter
Cyclers and cantrips stock the graveyard effectively, giving mechanics like Threshold some legs. This seems more like a Green theme, as the big incentive cards are there, with Ghoultree, Grizzly Fate and Nemesis of Mortals. Black really only offers reanimation to support this, though Delve is a strong incentive as well. My concerns with Delve are that where Green wants lots of cards in the yard, Black empties those cards out, which makes pairing the colours a little awkward.

- Enchantress
Not a large theme, just a few incentive cards to push drafters in this direction. Eidolon of Blossoms and Kor Spiritdancer are the primary build-around cards, along with a few reward and support cards, such as Aura Gnarlid and Heliod's Pilgrim. Enchantments create a bit of tension with the Instants and Sorceries matter of UR, so I need to keep that in mind.

 

[Laz]

Huzzah! I think I have a core in place that I am happy with. Essentially it is the main cards which support the above colour pairing themes, and neatly enough, there is already a little overlap. At this point I am essentially reposting from cubetutor, so you can check this link if you would prefer to view it over there. However, since that is wont to change, here are the core cards and the outwards colour bleed.

- Heroic/Prowess
This just has the main Heroic/Prowess creatures.

Spoiler

Favored Hoplite
Akroan Skyguard
Akroan Skyguard
Hero of Iroas
Dragon Bell Monk
Lotus-Eye Mystics
Battlefield Thaumaturge
Jeskai Elder
Jeskai Sage
Jeskai Sage
War-Wing Siren
Mistfire Adept
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest

I am bleeding Heroic into green with a single Pheres-Band Thunderhoof and Prowess into Red with a Bloodfire Expert.

- Spells Matter
A sadly empty spoiler block. Much of the power here comes from Prowess.

Spoiler

Young Pyromancer
Young Pyromancer
Guttersnipe

- Madness
This is split into two sections, Madness cards and enablers.

Spoiler

Madness cards:
Reckless Wurm
Reckless Wurm
Grave Scrabbler
Big Game Hunter
Ichor Slick
Fiery Temper
Blast from the Past
I added Big Game Hunter here, since I forgot Grillo's excellent Tortured Existence suggestion, and it made me want an additional creature to get.
Enablers:

Tormenting Voice
Tormenting Voice
Faithless Looting
Desperate Ravings
Vaultbreaker
Tortured Existence
Undead Gladiator
Dirty Wererat
The enablers also bleed both ways, into Green and blue, with Wild Mongrel and Nostalgic Dreams in Green, and Compulsion and Mercurial Chemister in Blue (which also has Jeskai Elder). Desperate Ravings might be a stretch for Madness, but it is a cool card.

- Cards in the Graveyard Matter
Two conflicting themes here. Cards that want the graveyard packed, and others that want it packed to that they can empty it.

Spoiler

Cards that want a stocked yard:
Ghoultree
Nemesis of Mortals
Grizzly Fate
Werebear
Stitch Together
Putrid Imp
Cards that want to take card out of a stocked yard (and into hand, the battlefield, or exile...):
Hooting Mandrills
Gurmag Angler
Murderous Cut
Sibsig Muckdraggers
Corpse Dance
Grim Harvest

I also bled this into Blue for Treasure Cruise, but it is possible that was a mistake. Blue doesn't actually border either Green or Black... I think I just got over excited.

- Enchantress
Disclaimer: No actual Enchantresses. Just cards that like enchantments.

Spoiler

Eidolon of Blossoms
Kor Spiritdancer
Aura Gnarlid
Heliod's Pilgrim
Heliod's Pilgrim

There is some overlap with Lotus-Eye Mystics and Hero of Iroas in the Heroic section too. Ajani's Chosen is a cool card, but I am going to wait on it.

So, the core is in place, but it still needs all of the cards on which these themes rely; Enchantments (specifically Auras), ways to stock the yard with creatures, as well as cheap spells. Also fixing, but 200 cards is probably enough space for all of that, as well as lesser themes, like a cheeky 1-of Astral Slide, and a Lightning Rift, or seeing if there is something neat that can be done with Wall of Mulch...

 

[Laz]

Auras can do everything! I added 22 auras that do a lot of different things, which gives an as-fan of a little less that 1 (remember my packs are 11 cards), which ought to make it a pretty clear theme. That said, there is a lot of flexibility, and all of these are hardly going to wheel to 'the Aura deck'.

I would classify five adds as essentially removal:


Then there are the cards which are pretty much intended for the Prowess/Heroic tempo deck:


The deck that plays from the graveyard is not forgotten. Vineweft and the Dragon cycle are cheap enough that simply slamming them on a Heroic creature or the like is still awesome. Vineweft is a pretty middling card, but I think it is the 20+th playable for enough different types of decks that it is probably fine.


I couldn't avoid adding some cards just because they cantrip though...


Capashen Standard instantly made me think of Grillo's statement about in-play cycling. At 1-mana it is great for triggering Heroic/Prowess/Constellation, then when you are done with it, you can cash it back in.

I also added a half dozen Bestow creatures, which artificially up the Aura count, and scale really effectively.

Finally, how is this one for crossing over all of themes?

Enchantment? Check. Graveyard? Check. Replaces itself? Check!

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think it would be good to add a lot more threshold cards. I know Lucre likes the valuation game, and threshold seems like a really important part of that puzzle in conjunction with cycling, looting effects, and madness. A lot of the threshold cards seem underpowered, but thats because they are asking you to make a valuation and resource judgment.

These cards ask the question, how do you evaluate bodies, cards in the graveyard, untap effects, and card draw?



Graveyard order matters also play in really well with that valuation judgment.




You have to evaluate bodies, potential bodies, seeing an extra card, or using an undercosted counter.


Even more interesting:




How much, and in what way, do we value cards in the graveyard?

 

[Laz]

I like this thought process, and I am already running a bunch of the cards from above. I had a quick look into some of the graveyard order matters cards, thinking it would be a fantastic dynamic with effects that require you to exile cards from your own yard, to manipulate the order, but the complexity creeps up really fast. Something like Volrath's Shapeshifter really benefits from the selective exiling, but the other cards that would, like Death Spark, and Krovikan Horror, introduce a lot of complexity and needless mechanical awareness. For instance, when an enchanted creature dies, it goes into the graveyard creature first, followed by enchantments in any order. I know this, but I don't practice it enough to do it intuitively, and my drafters may not even know this.

Most of the cards which only care about relative order, like Spinning Darkness, and not specific order are probably fine, but they don't really have the same play with selective exiling.

I suppose that I can re-evaluate Threshold, but it just feels like a really 'all-in' strategy, where your cards are either fantastic, or they aren't. I have selectively added threshold, but the cards tend to have cross-theme value, or are less all-in. Dirty Wererat and Putrid Imp are discard outlets, which kind of have self-synergy, plus enable some of the madness cards. Werebear is a ramp spell that transforms into a beater, which is a neat dynamic. Grizzly Fate and Stitch Together are probably the closest to the description of Threshold above, in that casting them with Threshold is great, and without is kind of not. Grizzly Fate having Flashback is important, as you get a second shot at having Threshold, if you bought time with the first casting.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Thats too bad about the complexity issue. In all fairness, threshold and graveyard order matters cards do lead to a feeling of "playing in the graveyard."

But death spark, krovikan horror, ashen ghoul, and nether shadow are just so sweet and nostalgic, I don't think I could turn them away.

TOL tutors also work nicely in this sort of environment, and both lim-dul's vault and insidious dreams are cheap.

Forgotten harvest is another neat card to maybe consider.

 

[Laz]

I have been looking for a neat cycle of what I suppose I would call one-card build-arounds.

At present, I am thinking the following:


As is pretty apparent, I am missing a Green card. I have some concerns about Astral Slide being truly obnoxious in an environment focussed upon Heroic and Auras. Invigorating Boon is a possible card, though I am tempted to only have the one that triggers on cycling, and have others trigger on different things, and Forgotten Harvest was a push in that direction. Harvest just seems so low impact though.

Am I being silly, is trying to get these cards that change the axis of attack to work a bad idea?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

It seems fine to me, though astral slide looks abusive, and maniac needs more self mill (though works great with looters).

Tortured existance in a great card, and an ideal singleton build around because the decks it goes into are so grindy and slow.

Saw this and thought of your cube:



Enchantment matters, feeds the yard, thins the library, supports prowess and heroic. A lot of the fading and vanishing cards seem like they could be neat too.

Also, have you thought of running kicker cards? Really great mechanic, and supports your theme of reducing negative variance.

 

[Laz]

I found it, I found the single-card build around green card which changes how you evaluate other cards.



In an environment with Evoke and Vanishing/Fading, to support the 'get creatures into the yard' theme...

Edit: Finished the cycle: Spirit Cairn

 

[Chris Taylor]

Is birthing pod too stronk?

 

[Laz]

Birthing Pod is a strong card, but also a card that scales to its targets. I actually think it might be too weak here. I mean, sure it gets creatures into the yard, and causes death triggers, but the curves are all messed up by Cycling creatures, and the density of ETB effects is really low by cube standards.

The cycle of which Foster is a part is designed to act as cards which change the way in which you evaluate other cards in the cube. Death triggers are featured no-where else (except maybe Grim Harvest), yet because there is a 'get creature cards into the graveyard' theme, Evoke, Echo and the like tend to be seen as a method for getting a creature into the graveyard. Foster is designed to change how a drafter values these particular cards (as opposed to the Cyclers (Cyclists?), which would be the normal method of stocking the yard).

The other thought with this was to mess with the allied colour pairings that I have set up. Spirit Cairn triggers on discard, but there is very little cycling in White, and it is the only colour without discard outlets. It probably pairs most strongly with Red or Black, which are enemy colours. Likewise, for Laboratory Maniac, most of the self-mill is, or will be, in Green/Black, which are the two enemy colours for Blue. Tortured Existence is probably an outlier here, because it is simply more of Black doing what Black does, likewise Lightning Rift, though cycling is prevalent across many colours. In this regard, I should probably shift some of the self-kill cards out of green, Simian Grunts, Skyshroud Ridgeback and Hunting Moa would probably be on the cutting block if I did this.

 

[Laz]

Flashback is basically 'draw-a-card', or more accurately, Flashback cards effectively read 'The first time you cast this, draw another copy of this spell'.

Flashback also works really well with the spell-matter theme in UR. While this theme may need more incentives (currently 2x Pyromancer, and a Guttersnipe), it combines really neatly with Prowess, and depending on the spells, Heroic. The following are designed to emphasise these interactions:

These are in addition to the flashback already present on the Red card-drawing spells (Faithless Looting and Desperate Ravings), as well as the ever so heavily keyworded Blast from the Past.

I want to shift Red a little away from being aggressively focussed, and have it be able to play a longer game. In this regard, I am adding the following value-oriented long-game cards.

Of course, these do call for Sorceries, so then I ended up hunting for Flame Slash-like cards for defensive longer-game players... and then was worried that removal like that would be snapped up by the aggressive decks as well, etc...

Gyah! Still to solve.

 

[Meltyman]

I found it, I found the single-card build around green card which changes how you evaluate other cards.



In an environment with Evoke and Vanishing/Fading, to support the 'get creatures into the yard' theme...

Edit: Finished the cycle: Spirit Cairn

Also Exploit !

Sidisi, Undead Vizier and company

 

[Chris Taylor]

Artful Dodge might be cooler than Defy Gravity, other than the defensive value of jumping a blocker.
Wait, also this

Lol both of these in the same block...

 

[Laz]

Well, consider that these two were also in the same block:

I am sure it made excellent sense for the limited formats, but because I wasn't playing back then, I am simply going to sit in my ignorant position and poke fun at it.

Defy Gravity over Artful Dodge because flying has a little more play to it, and I like the art more. I could go with Leap, but I think it comes down to which is more valuable, drawing a random card, or drawing another copy of 'Target creature gains flying'. In the decks that want the effect, I suspect the latter is pretty desirable, it is always an extra Heroic/spell-cast trigger, though it does reduce graveyard size. I consider them pretty equal when cast, but the fact that Defy Gravity has value if milled makes it slightly more desirable in my eyes.

Melty, Exploit is cool, and I like that Foster has gotten people's thoughts ticking over. I am not pushing that theme super hard here, but it is definitely a card you could build around in plenty of other lower-power cubes.

 

[Laz]

So, to update my previous point, Red is bad at being a measured, slower colour. Because I have made Blue and White aggressive tempo colours, I feel that I need Red to be able to support both fast and slower decks. Hence, I need Red cards which will make it to the slower decks, and not be snapped up by aggressive drafters. My default here would be burn that cannot go to the face, but I always worry that removal like that is desirable for all decks.

I should probably open this up to a broader discourse on early interaction in this cube. As the prime aggressive strategy is based on +1/+1 counters and Auras (not sure where Prowess sits here, but I think it is little slower, but more resilient), the most effective counter to this is bounce or rendering the creature unable to attack. It looks like the aggression here will be about 'going-tall' and building up a big creature with Heroic pumps/Auras, such that bouncing that creature resets all of that. Unfortunately bounce and Pacifism effects are centred in Blue and White, the very colours which are presenting these threats. The other, more durdly strategies (I am look at you GB) need an effective way to play against this.
My current thinking revolves around Deathtouch. It is a keyword that both colours have access to, and doesn't care about how big the creature has become. It also has a bit of play to it using the tempo cards in U/W. Ambush Viper is still vulnerable to being tapped or bounced (or even Stunned) after being flashed in, or the attacking creature could suddenly fly, or have pro-green. This, in concert with the removal available to Black (Big Game Hunter, Bone Shredder, Expunge) seems fine. Do or Die is on my list of 'potentially cool cards' as well.
Of course, this still leaves Red. If I go down the play a longer, slower game with Recoup and Anarchist, then I need effective sorceries that have value later into the game. At the moment, Mizzium Mortars and Roast are on my radar, since my search was basically 'I want a Flame Slash, but not for 1 mana'. If I really want to cement Red as a controlling colour, I could just go big and slam Blasphemous Act, then win with something stupid like auto-hammer...