The 'Draw-a-Card' cube

[Grillo_Parlante]

I just wanted to chime in and say that as far as tactical combat goes, shadow rift is way more interesting than artful dodge, defy gravity, or leap. Not only can you use it to force a creature through, but you can use it defensively, such as in the just referenced ambush viper scenario.

Its also a better variance reducer than either artful dodge or defy gravity, and thats actually materal in the types of decks those cards show up in, which are trying to balance spell count with creature count.

The heroic strategies over here have not really been about speed so much as they have been about burst damage and building a resilent board state, so i'm not sure it will really be an issue of speed with the slow strategies. The aggro decks as a whole look slower but powerful.

Your instincts are right about cards like flame slash being taken by aggro decks, and I doubt roast or mizzium mortars will change that. Both look to be well worth the extra mana for an aggro deck to run, mizzium mortars in particular looks fantastic for them.

What I've found has worked really well in red is just running those pyroclasm effects. Its generally a pretty bad plan to be running cards that kill your own guys in a red creature deck. If someone wants to go red control, they typically go about it by grabing the red sweepers + card draw and than mixing that with whatever spot removal they can get. Usually, they'll have a shot at some burn, and suppliment it via removal from the secondary (or tertiary) color.

Since so much of your aggro is based around vertical growth, the red burn spells are going to be of somewhat limited utility against an aggro deck anways. This is worth noting, as you don't seem to be supporting horizontal aggro at this time, which is where those pyroclasm effects really shine (X mana scaling sweepers like star storm and its ilk are going to be much worse for you than me, as you have no bouncelands in the list as of now), and opens up the door to some broader issues regarding red identity.

Since you are running so many vertical aggro pieces, I would encourage running a reasonable number of edict effects (chainer's seems excellent) as that pressures the vertical aggro decks on one of their weak points, and forces them to be a bit more strategic in draft and deckbuilding, as well as tactical with how they deploy their creatures. Maybe 2-3 total in a 360? I don't think you have to run too many, just enough to make them worry about a blow out.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

As for red removal:



Really great madness outlet. Aggro can run this, but it looks better in midrange/control.

 

[Laz]

As always, lots of good points Grillo.

I can't believe that I overlooked the fact that Shadow Rift can be used to make a creature unable to block... Good catch.

The issue with Flame Slash, Mizzium Mortars, Roast etc is that they are just good cards. Red doesn't have a strong pedigree of aggro unfriendly removal, in the style of Innocent Blood or Condemn, and trying to force it into that mould might be a bad idea. I think I might be overly-worried about cards like that going to my conceptual 'slower decks', when in actuality, they will be split between decks and that is fine. A slower more controlling deck is probably going to put a higher priority on point-removal than an aggro deck which has to balance creatures, spells which target, spells which don't target, etc. anyway.
I also suspect that I am over estimating the speed of the Heroic decks, as they look like they have to go fairly all-in to get past something like a 4/4. In addition, something I also hadn't really considered was the fact that almost half of my heroic creatures are flying, so Deathtouch might not be the interactive answer that I wanted it to be.

On the issue of horizontal growth vs. vertical growth, I actually had a paragraph written on this, then removed it as too tangential. You are right that this impacts the value of Red's burn, as point removal often halves the damage coming in, where against a single big creature, it is a lot more all-or-nothing. There might be some minor go-wide, from cards like Grizzly Fate, Chasm Skulker, Young Pyromancer or Decree of Justice, but I don't feel a need to run lots of Pyroclasm effects to counter it. Perhaps Firespout to accompany Slice and Dice and Mizzium Mortars will be enough.

Edicts are something I have considered, and definitely planned to add. Chainers was obvious, but a second one eludes me. I would love to play a reasonably costed Grave Exchange, and might make an exception to my no-custom cards/errata for this cube in order to cost it at or . It is already conditional on having a creature in the yard, and so is probably fine.

I really need to get around to dealing with the land situation. I have a vague idea that I want around 30-ish lands, probably with a 3-4 for each allied pair, and 2 for each enemy pair. I have jotted down on one of my idea pads the following list:

Some of these lands work perfectly for the colour pairs, i.e BR Madness and GB Creatures in yard. Loothouse is fine, it doesn't really go one way or another. Moorland Haunt is just wrong, but it is not like Prahv or Birdland fit much better. I also am not totally sure what Nantuko Monastery has to do with enchantments.

Edit: Lightning Axe! Strictly superior to spark hatchet!

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I also suspect that I am over estimating the speed of the Heroic decks, as they look like they have to go fairly all-in to get past something like a 4/4. In addition, something I also hadn't really considered was the fact that almost half of my heroic creatures are flying, so Deathtouch might not be the interactive answer that I wanted it to be.

There's your answer But maybe you could add more reach-granting combat tricks kind of like spidery grasp? Or what colors do you imagine will have troubles with a bunch of superman decks?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think you're on point with the # of pyroclasm effects. The only things I would add would be that you could consider some of them that don't hit flyers, as that can push people in interesting deck building directions, or focus more on cards that scale a bit better with mana such as rolling thunder. I actually really like slice and dice in the list, as I think the 4 damage is probably right, and the cycling option is nice incidental hate against a horizontal aggro strategy. It can also be used to clear out any edict fodder the vertical decks run.

There is also the option of switching towards more 3 damage sweeper effects, like the firespout you mentioned, which could be backed up with a card like sulfurous blast.

I couldn't find any great choices for spot removal. It can be hoovered up by the non-control decks if they wish. The only option, I think, would be to go with higher CC red spot removal cards, but unlike black I don't really see them providing a bit benefit for the higher cost.

For edict effects, I can just comment on what I've personally liked, but consuming vapors has always been popular here. The life gain helps offset both the tempo loss and supports life pay strategies, the rebound helps it get around edict fodder, and a lot of the time it feels like a pocket sweeper. Warren weirding is also a fun one if you end up with a B/R goblins deck.

There is also the option of edict effects attached to a body, like predatory nightstalker (though the portal text might be a bit confusing).

The threshold lands might be a neat way to thread the mechanic more into the cube.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Heres a few, perhaps, that might wheel for control?

 

[Laz]

Rasmus, I didn't forget about 'The Green Doom Blade'. That thing is always an incredible pain to play around in core set limited. I don't imagine that too many decks will have issues with Flyers, that said, I did have a few things in mind.

Claws cycles, and adds some reach, but it is definitely a weaker card. Emerald Charm does everything except draw a card. It is a surprise blocker, or a surprise reach blocker, it triggers Heroic/Prowess like a champ, it blows up enchantments (shame that most of my enchants are Auras, which it doesn't hit). Frog Tongue is... adorable. Seton's Scout is also an option.

Grillo, I really appreciate you trawling the depths of Magic history to bring me all of those Red cards. I think I might just add a Rolling Thunder and call it a day. Illuminate is... a very expensive card, as is Magma Burst. I think trying to force cards into control is just a futile, and ultimately poor use of effort.
Consuming Vapors is a card that is often on my Radar, but I kind of thought it a little too powerful for this cube. I will definitely order one and test it out, because I have often looked at it for my other Cubes, so I am sure it will find a home. For now though, I am kind of excited about Grave Exchange (I would love to see the design/development notes on this card, how did it come to cost so much? Did it break every limited game they tested? Was it simply part of Avacyn Restored, so all removal had to be double the normal cost? Did it formerly return to play? The name and sacrifice effect make it appear that way).

Now, to twist the conversation, lets discuss enchantment destruction. In my trawling, I think I found an incredibly neat card:

Not only is it a Seal of Cleansing, it also triggers Heroic, destroys existing Auras on the creature and is itself an Aura - so searchable, triggers Kor Spiritdancer, etc. I already added Clear, and if I add Emerald Charm, then there is already a reasonable density of enchantment destruction effects. I haven't actually found any artifacts that I feel compelled to run yet, so the fact that my answers are narrower isn't a big deal at the moment.

If I need more, I have the following short-list:
Break Asunder
Dawn to Dusk
Quiet Disrepair
Rending Vines
Slice in Twain
Treva's Charm
Wax // Wane

 

[Laz]

I realised that I was over-thinking the Edict effect. Fleshbag Marauder. It is just another 'spell which puts a creature into the graveyard', like Evoke.

Also, how did we make it this far without Masked Admirers coming up?

 

[kevthewalker]

Not sure if this was already suggested as I didn't read everything, but loves heroic, or was it the other way around?

 

[spicewitch]

I haven't been paying attention for a couple pages, so apologies if this has already been said:

Cycling and cantrips are basically "consistency". You get to play your cards and your deck works how it's supposed to. Low number of non-games. The other big consistency mechanic is Scry! Maybe that should be thick in this cube too.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Going back to the mana base...you can actually run those cycling lands alongside bouncelands, and its great.

You can play the cycling lands early, and than later in the game, when you are set on mana, bounce them back to your hand, and cycle them away.

 

[Laz]

My current cycling land plan is to give everyone 2 of each cycling land. See how that works out.

The issue is that Cycling lands just don't seem to be worth a pick, though my two solutions if I want them in the draft are have 'Cycling wild-lands' where the pick is one cycling land of your choice, or just have 2-for-1 cycling lands for your pick.

I am planning to run bounce lands, getting up to 8 cards on turn 2 in order to discard may be of minor value as well.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Cycling lands are consistently picked in my Utility Land Draft, despite apparently better options. Having to pick them in draft over a nonland card seems iffier though.

 

[Laz]

Cry for help post.

I need some more white creatures, but can't think of any off of the top of my head which are interesting and of an appropriate power level given the other cards in the cube.

Other colours are mostly in-place, but cursed white has me strapped for ideas. Anyone have anything fun off of the top of their head?

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/25756

 

[Chris Taylor]

Well I'd definitely add in more copies of Favored Hopplite. Also do remember that not everything needs to be on theme, you can just add random savannah lions and crap

White doesn't really draw cards that well. You're going to need to bend things a little for it to exist at all.


My suggustions:

 

[Onderzeeboot]

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

White is always hard.

Some mana fixing / card draw



Enchantment advantage



Weenie draw



Clash - deck manipulation



Bit of reanimation



Using white to bounce other colours card advantage, plus the few white has



Misc

 

[Laz]

Huzzah! Thanks for the suggestions guys. First draft of the list is done.

If you are feeling keen, take it for a spin here, using the following settings:
Pack Size: 11 Packs: 4 Bots: 5

 

[Laz]

Managed to Cube Tutor draft some decks that actually fit my imagined archetypes pretty closely:

I manually added the cycling lands to the lists.

Spoiler: RB Tortured Existence

This is my favourite deck of the ones I drafted. Look at all of the removal, look at all of the super-grindy card advantage. Love the concept of looping back Unearth/Stitch Together with Anarchist or Recoup. I am honestly not sure how many lands this deck runs, but oddly, this deck has very little card draw. Maybe 18 lands is right.

RB Tortured Existence from CubeTutor.com

Spoiler: GB Creatures-in-yard matters

This one seems pretty much as it was drawn up. Cycle and Reanimate creatures, or cycle and cast Nemesis of Mortals/Ghoultree, or just ramp for a while then cast them...

GB Creatures-in-yard matters from CubeTutor.com

Spoiler: UW Prowess Tempo-control

This ended up a lot slower looking than I thought it would be. Lots of tempo plays, heaps of card advantage. The Heroic angle didn't really come together, as when I was drafting, I was prioritising the more-controlling angle.

UW Prowess Tempo-control from CubeTutor.com

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Did a few practice drafts trying to force heroic aggro, and while the basic core of the cube seems solid, there were a few issues that popped up:

1. Fixing feels constricting. While this is hard to judge without playing the list (can't see how effective land cyclers are), I didn't get a feeling like there was an alternative way to fix other than CIPT lands, which makes it difficult to pivot around the draft if you are on an aggro strategy.

2. Not enough instants/protection effects/good auras. A heroic deck is an aggressive deck, but isn't focused so much on curving out as forcing the opponent to play around percieved pressure from combat tricks. I like to have 5-6 heroic triggering instants, working on the assumption I will only see three per game, which will be enough for me to engineer enough blow outs to get ahead and win. Granted your numbers might be a bit different due to more cyclers, but there is just a low density in general of either impactful aggressive aura's or aggressive instants at the cube's current size.

Those decks also very badly need protection effects/temp, hexproof due to their eggs-in-a-basket aggro strategy. Currently you only have a few in white and one in blue, and those are important to address bounce and pacifism effects. Silent departure seems like it just wreaks the decks.

3. Not enough support in red or green. Its inevitable that someone is going to want to draft a R/W or G/W based heroic deck. There are a few cards that will bait someone into it (thrill of the hunt, moldervine cloak, galvanic arc) but not much payoff beyond those.

All-in-all the archetype felt like it was there, but constricted, and risky to go into.

And you can kind of see those issues in the deck you provided above, which looks threat light, and more midrangy or controllish. I'm guessing you would be stalling the board, until getting out a shu yun or chasim stalker, and trying to take over from there, with only a narrow band of draws supporting a hero of iroas beat-down plan.

 

[Laz]

Lots of good comments there, Grillo, especially given they were focussed on the heroic deck, which was one I had concerns about (since it requires this critical mass of well... everything)

1. Fixing feels constricting. While this is hard to judge without playing the list (can't see how effective land cyclers are), I didn't get a feeling like there was an alternative way to fix other than CIPT lands, which makes it difficult to pivot around the draft if you are on an aggro strategy.

This seems like a fair criticism. I have no idea how effective the land cyclers are either, but I was hoping that they would pick up some of the slack. Given they are colour restrictive (Either cycling for a particular type of land, or requiring coloured mana to cycle for a basic land), I don't think they help fixing overmuch. I could see adding something like:
City of Brass
Evolving Wilds
Evolving Wilds
Evolving Wilds
Evolving Wilds
While Evolving Wilds it doesn't help with the CIPT issue, it does make it easier to change between splashing XYZ or playing it as a main colour. It also helps Threshold, which is nice.

2. Not enough instants/protection effects/good auras. A heroic deck is an aggressive deck, but isn't focused so much on curving out as forcing the opponent to play around percieved pressure from combat tricks. I like to have 5-6 heroic triggering instants, working on the assumption I will only see three per game, which will be enough for me to engineer enough blow outs to get ahead and win. Granted your numbers might be a bit different due to more cyclers, but there is just a low density in general of either impactful aggressive aura's or aggressive instants at the cube's current size.

Those decks also very badly need protection effects/temp, hexproof due to their eggs-in-a-basket aggro strategy. Currently you only have a few in white and one in blue, and those are important to address bounce and pacifism effects. Silent departure seems like it just wreaks the decks.

There are two issues here. Lack of strong pumps, and removal that blows the strategy apart. I am going to deal with the latter first. I think Silent Departure (and to a lesser extent, Stingscourger/Into the Roil) are the issues here. They just handle the strategy too neatly, and for very little cost. I have no issue with all of the 3-mana ways to deal with a creature, since by then there should be some room to play around the effect, and the opponent is investing 3-mana, likely their whole turn, in trying to deal with your creature. Bounce is just overly effective against Auras and +1/+1 counters. The 2-mana effects

On the former issue, you are probably right. I suspect I could easily double up on some of the cheap cantripping Heroic triggering instants, as well as adding swapping out some of the innocuous Auras for something a little more potent. I worry a little about adding too much protection that interrupts casting (i.e Gain Hexproof, gain protection from <colour>) since a lot of the removal in this environment is costed for the draw a card riders, but I could definitely see some more protection, though I am not sure where the target numbers sit.

3. Not enough support in red or green. Its inevitable that someone is going to want to draft a R/W or G/W based heroic deck. There are a few cards that will bait someone into it (thrill of the hunt, moldervine cloak, galvanic arc) but not much payoff beyond those.

Noted.

And you can kind of see those issues in the deck you provided above, which looks threat light, and more midrangy or controllish. I'm guessing you would be stalling the board, until getting out a shu yun or chasim stalker, and trying to take over from there, with only a narrow band of draws supporting a hero of iroas beat-down plan.

I agree, though that drafted started out wondering if I could go into a more controlling direction with UW, rather than forcing Heroic, but the above points make me wonder about the viability of the latter already.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I like the evolving wilds plan on paper, but in practice I would expect them to eventually end up being grabbed by essentially every deck type rather early in the draft. Evolving wilds is a great generic pick, because you know its always going to make your deck. The fixing is a tough problem though. I would probably just revert to stars/spheres and double up on key land cyclers, but I have no idea whats correct to do in this spot.

I don't think the quality of the bounce is an issue (with the possible exception of silent departure) but rather the lack of protection. The mana cost difference between 2-3 mana removal/bounce isn't really relevent, since the heroic deck isn't based around curving out, but instead crafting a slower postional plan around perceived pressure. The longer the game goes, the more they invest in that threat, and the more they invest in it, the more devastating it is for it to be destroyed, regardless of the mana cost of the removal spell that does it.

Hard removal is much worse for them, because with bounce they can at least replay the threat and rebuild.

I don't know what final number of protection/hexproof cards is correct, but I know the strategy is going to really struggle without them. Protection effects let you run a reasonable removal suite, while at the same time supporting auras and combat tricks.

I did want to note, that Crystalline Nautilus is not a heroic card, since it makes it impossible to target the creature from then-on-out with combat tricks, and makes it so that the creature (which you probably invested spells into) dies to everything

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Huzzah! Thanks for the suggestions guys. First draft of the list is done.

If you are feeling keen, take it for a spin here, using the following settings:
Pack Size: 11 Packs: 4 Bots: 5

UR from CubeTutor.com

There was a distinct lack of manafixing in my colors this draft. I had some black gems (Murderous Cut, Ribbons of Night and Sedris, Traitor King) I wanted to splash, but I never saw any on-color lands.

BG from CubeTutor.com

I kinda like this one. Enough removal and some sizable threats.

Rwb from CubeTutor.com

I drafted an Anarchist, which was near useless, as all of the red removal cards I drafted were instants. Maybe you should replace some of the instant speed removal with sorceries. This has the added benefit of secretly making heroic better, as there will be less "in response I burn your creature" blowouts.

Once again, I feel that there's enough mana fixing to comfortably go into two colors, let alone three colors. I mean, you almost have to go into two colors, but if I get two mana fixers I'm lucky.

 

[Laz]

Ok, I have had time to hunt through the possible protection effects for Heroic creatures, and as it turns out, there are quite a lot of methods by which one can keep creatures alive.

I think my target number of these effects is probably 6-ish, but I could go slightly higher if the cards offering the effect are flexible.
Lets start simple. Protection from a colour.
I am already running Center Soul and Shelter and I am probably not interesting in many more of these effects. They are very efficient, and if I were to add another, it would likely by KTK draft all-star Feat of Resistance.
Next up as a possibility is Hexproof/Shroud. Again, efficient, and possible cards are Ranger's Guile, Glint and Veil of Secrecy. I do also have leanings towards Regenerate and Indestructible. Regeneration can turn removal into a Fog, which feels fine.
Regenerate is mostly in Black and Green, though Dawn Charm is a pretty sweet card (Bonus, it counters Chainer's Edict!). I could consider Trollhide or Gaea's Embrace, though requiring 5 mana to avoid being blown out is a lot. Thrull Retainer looks like an early prototype for Totem Armor... Seedling Charm is also a pretty flexible regeneration effect (Oh... bad at reading... 'GREEN' creature).
On the Indestructible side, Valorous Stance should almost definitely be in, though all of Ajani's Presence, Ephemeral Shields, and Mortal's Resolve could be considered.

I already have Confound to counter removal cheaply, but the most hilarious way to cheaply protect creatures has got to be these three cards:

Not saying I want to run them (though I can see Divert being truly hilarious).

So, after much, essentially meaningless discussion, I think I will look at the following protection effects:
Center Soul
Shelter
Valorous Stance
Confound
Redirect
Ranger's Guile
Trollhide

Redirect is almost certainly a bad idea, and not just because it has a prohibitive cost. Veil of Secrecy can be my fallback.

 

[Laz]

Thanks for the drafts Onderzeeboot. I really appreciate it.

Mana-fixing is first and foremost the problem I am looking to tackle. 30 lands in 264 only equates to about 41 lands at 360, which is definitely on the low-side, especially given that 5 of the lands are spell-lands, not mana-fixing. I feel my normal cube mana (5 cycles, with double Fetch, Shocks, Duals + more) has spoiled me. I always look to go 3 colours, and it feels that is too difficult here. Solid 2-colour seems fine, but I would like enough fixing for solid 2-colour with a realistic splash to be the norm. I feel I need an additional 10 lands, and maybe I should forgo the explicit support of allied colour pairs to simply run 4 full cycles, or 3 cycles, a cycle of allied and a cycle of gold lands?

On the issue of Red Instants versus Sorceries, that was an problem I saw appearing, and I felt a little too much a slave to my themes. All of them have Madness or Cycling! Lightning Axe is the exception, but it plays so well with Madness, and indeed, makes its own 2-for-1. All of the instant speed burn spells have pretty restrictive costs, excepting perhaps Fiery Temper (and for 3 damage is still a lot).
Anarchist only returning Sorceries is perhaps the issue. Archaeomancer curse you!