The OkCupid Experience

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
this is just totally wonderful. i was gonna type that woman gave seattle women a bad name but then i realized the primacy of Software in this town makes it the sexual equivalent of the Klondike. (anyone got any warthog anus?)

I have no idea what you're talking about, or how anything in that post gave Seattle women a bad name.

fwiw i kinda blew off an engagement tonight and ended up skyping with a Legacy buddy about StarCraft. the topic of gamer girls was broached; we agreed that we did not like gamer girls, by and large; it was further agreed this is a common sentiment among men with respectable self-esteem.

I've never been attracted to anyone who self-identifies as a "gamer", and I don't really broadcast my proclivities either. I'm sure they can discover that with a cursory Google search, but really, I consider nerdy stuff to be something I do (among other activities), not something that I am. I don't talk about it on dates, nor would I get excited if some girl brought up the subject. I mostly just want to connect by bullshitting and making jokes about random inconsequential topics.

i should write about my all-consuming passions, they're kinda childish and infinitely regrettable. also mr wadds! a friend of mine is a 27yo divorcé too whose attitude is basically the same, though his was a BPD and so things were never quite as dispassionate. (do you ever feel bad for not feeling worse, or, like me, do you err on the side of not feeling bad for feeling bad?)

Oh wait, is that bipolar disorder?
And no, I don't really have the time for meta-feelings about my feelings. I feel how I feel and don't really care about how I "should" be feeling. If I had to assign one word to my current relationship with my ex it would be "inconvenient". I'm ready to move on with my life, and it will be a relief to live alone.
 
I like being able to include people I'm going to spend a lot of time with in the stuff I like doing, I also really like showing them the things that make me happy, if they kinda get it it's usually a good sign.

I think my record for recent Bethesda engine games that I've started but then some beautiful young woman has taken completely out of my hands and finished is like 3-0 right now. I was really excited about New Vegas too. Before I started going to Eric's cube nights I also had a lot more reason to be throwing together boardgame nights for my friends, which I've found can be really fun date if you can start things off without the wrong sort of atmosphere.

Do I like gamer girls? I'm not sure I've dated any. I guess I'm with The Wadd on this one. I think I like it when there is some flexibility though. It's funny I've never dated one of those self identified types because I used to hang out with anime crowd in highschool and if you stay in touch with them there is really no shortage of people who will gush over the latest marvel movie online or make constant posts about their guildwars 2 account.

I guess it's had the weird side effect that I cannot play video games alone anymore. I just find it sorta cold and empty.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Somehow the people I end up liking the most are always either musicians or lawyers. Even my first highschool girlfriend I was really into ended up going to Harvard Law.

I've always been a partitioner. I don't care if the girl has never touched a Meeple or a controller. I prefer to share things like TV shows and movies with my SO.

Also, like Lucas, almost all of my gaming time is social. And there's not much of it either. One evening a week tops, typically.
 
You know that settles it. Next time I have some free time at home, I'm starting up skyrim and I'm seeing where that takes me. I'll probably gain a couple pounds or something but I'm tired of acting like the couch is the worst place in the world. I can't remember the last time I watched a television series. Like what if I become one of those people who can't enjoy spending time on their own, or worse yet always have to be accomplishing something they can justify to themselves like my parents? Yikes.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I have nothing against gaming (obviously), but one of the big downsides it has is that it holds very little value as social currency. This may change, but when I use other forms of entertainment (movies, TV, books), I feel that they enrich me more as a person. I can reference them in conversation, incorporate their humor into my personality, use them as anecdotes. I don't really get anything like that out of the 8 hours I spent playing Rogue Legacy, or the embarrassing number of hours spent playing Candy Crush.

They do work my brain, but usually to the exclusion of other thoughts. When I go swimming or running I am very introspective, I unpack things that my mind has been too busy to think about.

Even if somebody has played the same game as me, that doesn't really lead to a connection or a meaningful conversation. But if I meet somebody who has seen Arrested Development, for example, that gives us some cultural foundation, something we can pull from.
 
Man did I ever watch a lot of Arrested development as a youth! It was like syndicated Simpson's episodes for a while. For some reason I have no interest in talking about it though, I wonder why. My ears did perk up when you mentioned Rogue Legacy though. I guess I have some googling to do. I think I'm also learning I need to start reading something more cool or accessible so that people will want to talk about it. Either that or go back to carrying pulp science fiction novels around all the time and forcing friends to read pages I found particularly distasteful.

I did have a really fun conversation at around 1am last saturday with a local party promoter who had recently changed his profile picture to Manny Calavera from Grim Fandango. I just started playing that one when me and my favourite lesbian hang out. It's sorta funny who comes out of the woodwork with these classic titles, maybe it's the same with literature. Looking back it seems kinda silly having a conversation about how obtuse and improbable point and click adventure game logic is when sandwiched in a foyer between blasting berlin techno and old school funky house and instead of having a ball with my friends and letting the man go about his business I'm here laughing about how absurd the hoops you have to jump through in some game are (like truly, I could never figure this game out without a guide at some segments, I just would never imagine some of this stuff.)
 

CML

Contributor
it is true, games are too often escapism. even ones that require an effort of empathy to excel at and ought not to be, like magic or poker.

on the other hand people are happier with communities and i like my mtg friends, but, in order to make them i had to be monastically devoted to the game itself for too long, get laid off etc. i recommend learning it to everyone i meet here because our (sub)-community is awesome, but just imagine if the social payoff was not us, not even metaphorically us.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, that's a good distinction. I'm very grateful for the connections I have made through games over the years, but they have all been exclusively non-romantic. The closest I've gotten to that was an editor at MLG I would have considered asking out, had I not been married. And had she not lived on another continent.
 

CML

Contributor
*** BIG UNPLANNED RANT ***

yeah, it's unsurprising that the skills one learns at these psychological games mirror the ones that make male friendship fun. it's one of the many reasons the ad-style language of WotC pisses me off, as evidenced by my friend's gf observing rich hagon at the belgian GP and asking, "does that doofus really play magic?" KEEPIN' IT REAL.

another dire case is a certain old classmate of mine and old cfb colleague of yours, who likes basketball. once upon a time he made offensive jokes and ribald drawings. now, though his period of philistine resistance to these things has ended, his articles admit of no error, nor irony or context. people become their public personas, which is often tragic. some people are nothing BUT public personas, which is even worse. #OWS (also cf. how the John Rizzo article attracted both much more attention and opprobrium than the typical schlock of Drew Levin.)

that being said! it's worth noting that these people rarely get married or even laid (the aZn balla is afaik incel for a year and counting), but when they do, they choose GAMER GIRLS. let me preface some analysis by saying that there have existed women who are great at card games and life; there are scores of women who are wonderful within mtg. but these are rare. the public faces are often girls who are not good at magic; these girls are not even all that into magic. most are hard on the eyes; a small minority are good-looking but crazy. in short, they are frauds.

though they are frauds, they are women, and though it is pathetic they have gravitated to mtg to gain unconditional and therefore worthless positive attention, it is a good way to assure constant adulation from nice guys, well-wishers, and self-styled progressives who tell themselves misogyny is a primary problem with the game, oblivious that it is in fact themselves. also, as the typical slur against mtg is at its core "it doesn't get you laid," the gamer girls of mtg do a good job of dispelling that, thus bringing the game closer into the mainstream. fake office workers exist, as do fake frat boys and fake sorority whores: why not fake nerds and fake nerd girls? these phonies help legitimize the hobby. viewed in this way the knuckle-dragging idiocy of http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ur/267 is kinda encouraging.

(i will also not complain about that consolation of one's mid-twenties, "ugly people's engagement photos")

anyway, people of low self-esteem tend to come together (nb: wotc salaries aren't that competitive -- though a bounty compared to being a "pro magic player") so the gamer girls get with the weird guys. a certain employee is actually blogging his progress at "talking to strangers," which deserves to be quoted at length:

[I'm settling into a night of three Breaking Bad episodes, and I decide that I need snacks. Off to Fred Meyer I go!

I literally just buy: cheese, meat, crackers, ice cream, and sweet tea vodka. It's going to be a good night.

As I get my receipt and start to walk away, out of the corner of my eye I notice a girl also get her receipt and start to walk out of the store behind me. She seemed attractive in my fleeting glimpse. She keeps following me until we're almost at my car near the back of the lot.


I turn around and jokingly say "I feel like I'm being followed." She says "oh sorry" in a way that makes me think she was actually sorry. I laugh and say "no problem" and get to my car, across from hers ...]

this topic came up the other night with an old friend who dated a BPD ("Pierce" to my novella readers). though PUAs by and large annoy me, we decided "negging" was a fancy word for "friendship" (something Mr. Stevens discovers at the end of The Remains of the Day), and that the concept had to be given its own name to highlight an essential misunderstanding of how people get along. to not "neg" women as one would men is not just ridiculous, it's also misogynistic -- women don't want to hear more insincere compliments from men; they get more than enough from other women.

one (the theory goes) does not "neg" a woman with low self-esteem; it is as futile as getting a wotc employee to laugh at himself, or a goldfish to cuddle. likewise one does not neg twoo articles, nor make a joke to Drew Levin; they attract bands of sycophants, and, what's worse, they like it. these people are in fact the opposite of friends, and their pretense towards support and friendship is as vapid as chess; courting them is a sign of MTGS-style mental illness. when this lack of criticism is applied to women, the worshipful attitude -- a refusal to judge -- is what brings about the trouble in my novella, though it wasn't until a year and a half later that i was able to conceptualize it this way. i do hope the 'pros' don't take as long as me to get sane. CLIFFS: 'gamer girls' are a way to treat the symptoms and not the causes of "insecurity," that disease of diseases. my friend's gf, who hates hagon, had the proper sense of wit and context to judge him correctly, but do magic players? and this is what i mean when i say "games are too often used as escapism."
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I'm not really a fan of terms like "fraud" here. If somebody wants to self-identify as something, I'm not going to question someone's "authenticity". Read the rest later.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I also hope I never see the word "neg" used here again.

To play devil's advocate here for a moment, I will say it's an interesting idea from CMLs perspective.
IIRC, "negging" is the act of semi-constantly insulting a woman so that she has something to prove to you, and ends up sleeping with you as a result. While I'll admit this is a horrible way to make friends, I'll also admit that at least part of my friendships with men does comprise of a fond ribbing that is in some way similar. Not the whole friendship by any stretch, but some.

The whole debate surrounding "gamer girls" and such I feel unqualified to comment on, as I've married one who is easy on the eyes :)
She doesn't so much play magic as listen to me gush and enjoy the occasional game with me, which I think is a far more useful metric than "is she a real gamer girl or not". Weather she knows the legacy metagame better than you shouldn't matter if your passions align.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Okay, I'll bite. So I think there's a distinction to be made here between "teasing" and "negging", and while they may hold some surface similarities, I think they're pretty fundamentally different in nature. Negging treats the recipient as some sort of objective to be captured. When I make friends, I don't open with a backhanded compliment to try to expose some vulnerability and getting them to latch on to me. When i tease a friend it's a friendly interaction based on some shared familiarity.

So sure, rib all you want, but I think it does damage to confuse the two.

I guess my disagreement is the assertion that "negging" can be considered a "fancy word for friendship". I mean, go read some example "negs" and you'll see that they're nothing like the types of interactions that your friendships are built upon.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
And while we're on the subject, I was drinking with a couple younger cubers one night (hi Hannes), and they kept using the term "friendzone", which I found quite disheartening. Do we really need to have a term for the assigning of blame to women for the lack of a romantic attraction?
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Okay, I'll bite. So I think there's a distinction to be made here between "teasing" and "negging", and while they may hold some surface similarities, I think they're pretty fundamentally different in nature. Negging treats the recipient as some sort of objective to be captured. When I make friends, I don't open with a backhanded compliment to try to expose some vulnerability and getting them to latch on to me. When i tease a friend it's a friendly interaction based on some shared familiarity.

So sure, rib all you want, but I think it does damage to confuse the two.

I guess my disagreement is the assertion that "negging" can be considered a "fancy word for friendship". I mean, go read some example "negs" and you'll see that they're nothing like the types of interactions that your friendships are built upon.

Oh entirely. I just think that the fact that they are as similar as they are says an interesting ammount about us (and those friendships)
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
And while we're on the subject, I was drinking with a couple younger cubers one night (hi Hannes), and they kept using the term "friendzone", which I found quite disheartening. Do we really need to have a term for the assigning of blame to women for the lack of a romantic attraction?

We do :(
Though there is an almost equal backlash deriding the term, rather hearteningly pointing out that nobody owes you shit, least of all romantic entanglement.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I browse the OkCupid subreddit, and there's a fairly regular stream of butthurt guys angry at the female population for never responding to their messages.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
As a side not I think the "nobody owes you shit" is a good mantra to live by in general. In job applications, games, romance, school. If things are sucking for you, it may be due to outside sources, but even so, the only way you can positively impact it is by changing you. Outsourcing the blame is bush league.
 

Rob Dennis

Developer
As a side not I think the "nobody owes you shit" is a good mantra to live by in general. In job applications, games, romance, school. If things are sucking for you, it may be due to outside sources, but even so, the only way you can positively impact it is by changing you. Outsourcing the blame is bush league.


One of my favorite (audio)books is Kitchen Confidential by Anthony Bourdain. In it, he devotes a lot of ink to describing the sense of entitlement a lot of younger people (myself) have growing up:
“I, a product of the New Frontier and Great Society, honestly believed that the world pretty much owed me a living--all I had to do was wait around in order to live better than my parents.”

I think there's a large part of that feeling that can seep into relationships. "I wasn't a dick to this girl" or "she asked me for a favor and I said yes" or "she treated me with basic human dignity" so of course she owes me some level of romantic interest.

All that said, every female friend I've had before getting married prompted at least a few feelings of "I hope she likes me romantically," so perhaps this is inherently hypocritical. I guess I'd just like to think that I never got mad or cheated when it happened that way.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
From what I've seen most people don't use the term 'friend zone' to assign blame, it's more an expression of regret that a romantic interest wasn't reciprocated in a case where regret is most likely; being shot down by a stranger in a club or w/e doesn't really sting, but being rejected automatically by someone who you're emotionally invested in to some degree (and who you probably have to spend more time around) does.
 
"friendzone" doesn't exist, it is a fedora-wearing mouthbreather's excuse after he feels a girl owed him sex for being a "nice guy". awful.
i've never encountered "fake gamer girl". the dumb sexist bullshit women have to put up with in these game communities means it isn't worth it to them. unless they actually give a shit. if anything, that's what makes them insane for putting up with it at all.
the few women i've encountered in person that play magic that aren't just there as someone's girlfriend were just as serious about the game as anyone else there.

edit: once i encountered a guy that was there as this girls boyfriend and he didnt really know how to play, that was a refreshing gender stereotype switch
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
People who are perfectly normal and well-adjusted use the term, writing them all off as fedora-wearing mouthbreathers is premature and reeks of unhealthy stereotyping itself. They might be best served expressing their frustration in different ways, but w/e.
 
ok fair enough, it's just the majority of the place where i've seen it, and to me it has entirely negative connotations about the person using it
 

CML

Contributor
ahhhhh good a hearty discussion about these things.

"neg" -- though it's evolved into something ugly, (representative of PUA in general) i think the original idea was closer kin to good-natured ribbing. i also disagree that it's a bad way to make a friend. but yeah, the whole 'object to be obtained' criticism is accurate.

"friendzone" -- similarly blemished term that's fairly associated with dem fedora mouthbreathers, but can sometimes be useful and descriptive. the connotation for me is a failure to establish a rapport based on a shared view of reality within a certain timeframe, or failing to act on it. i.e. "you want to call me out on bs now? you've already converted to me, so it's now apostasy." fwiw men do this to women all the time, too.

"gamer girls" -- the dumb sexist bullshit women have to put up with in these game communities means it isn't worth it to them. unless they actually give a shit. if anything, that's what makes them insane for putting up with it at all. this is a logical argument i've seen in seven different places on the Internet. i agree that it ought to be true, but it isn't! these people do exist. i have no interest in explaining them away, but i do wonder why others are so eager to, and i wonder if i don't make a similar error for other things that ought to exist but do. (mazel tov to Mr. Taylor for doing well in every possible regard.)

"nobody owes you shit" -- i suspect dom is a closet non-libertarian as his explanation of "friendzone" nicely debunks this. i am deeply contemptuous of the idea that "nobody owes you shit," it surprises me that this is a popular idea among a forum with a European flavor incl. at least one ex-pat, as nothing could be more corrosive and more american. i will expound! surely even the most unshackled of us rely on a dozen things, our health, our income, our family and friends, taking at least some of these for granted, for our happiness. even if some of these axioms are means to our ends, and our ends are partly arbitrary, they still matter; life is meaningless without commitment, and, if we think we "owe nobody shit," then over time there will arise garbage like Wall Street, PUA's current incarnation, the BPD girl in my book. being captain save-a-ho is a juvenile fantasy, but the "nobody owes you shit" idea, its opposite, is by defining itself in opposition to captain save-a-ho scarcely better. everyone strives to be independent, but the idea that we're totally independent is both nearly as bad and at the core of american narcissism. free will and variance both have their limits; the fact of the universe's indifference is the opposite of an excuse to owe and be owed nothing. in the jwadds case i'm guessing that the divorce begat this attitude, and while it's more practical than upkeeping a "meh" marriage, the great boon of relationships is that you can no longer say "I was never hurt," but, more importantly, you can never say "I never hurt anyone."
 
I wear a fedora :<

Of course, I wear a fedora because it's fucking classy and it goes with a button up shirt and a jacket, not because it's "cool"; I may be 50 years out of date here.
 
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