General Too Many Lands

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
/ignores Rasmus's boring, rational question :p

I have just thought of the perfectest, awesomest fixing land for all of you! This is mana fixing that encourages sticking to two colors, that can be used by aggro decks and control decks alike, and that even has cool "It's coming!" rattlesnake style play to it!

Realm of Possibilities.jpg
 
Can someone present an anectode that motivates this discussion, or is it just an intellectual curiosity?

Sometimes you give a mouse a cookie, and then fail to provide him with the sweet milk of fixing to enjoy that cookie. And all at once, when he's midway through pack three, his draft is ruined.

This has happened to me more times than I can count.
Thirty
Seven
Six
Eight
Nine
 

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
/ignores Rasmus's boring, rational question :p

I have just thought of the perfectest, awesomest fixing land for all of you! This is mana fixing that encourages sticking to two colors, that can be used by aggro decks and control decks alike, and that even has cool "It's coming!" rattlesnake style play to it!

View attachment 1148
Does it tap for colors after you cast the card?
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Sometimes you give a mouse a cookie, and then fail to provide him with the sweet milk of fixing to enjoy that cookie. And all at once, when he's midway through pack three, his draft is ruined.

This has happened to me more times than I can count.

Alright, I'll bite.

There once was a man from Toscana
Who failed to draft the right mana
His spells went uncast
And his dreams turned real fast
Into a fata morgana


Does it tap for colors after you cast the card?
Nope. There's no longer an exiled card. This works the same as, for example, Isochron Scepter. See http://magiccards.info/ema/en/223.html.

Edit: Mimic Vat is an even clearer example!
 
It's pretty unreasonable to propose that people just get free lands with their gold cards. All you've done then is create a class of super-fixers because they come platooned with a gold card by default. This is some kind of an attempt to reduce the parasitism of lands, but it feels like a pretty abysmal execution. Why wouldn't people just slam every gold card they see so as to have a lot of lands? By doing this you certainly haven't alleviated the problem of people taking "lands" early in the draft.

I have to side with Onder here and say that this is kind of an unnecessarily hardline approach. It's "unreasonable" to offer free lands with tricolor cards - how is this so? What does reasonability have to do with any of this?

I think an important thing to do, and often, is step back from building a cube and developing a format and learning cube philosophy and building ideas, to appreciate what we're doing: we're customizing a game for fun. The entire purpose of this activity is fun, and, for most (?) of us here, that fun is derived in groups of people we all like, or at least know. It's either a hobby to share between friends, or a community that you're a part of, so I have to roll my eyes a bit when I see an argument resting on "unreasonability". If it's fun, if players perceive it to be "good", then what does it matter if it's unorthodox? (And please, no "well why don't we just give everyone a Black Lotus" strawmans...)

As for unorthodox, I currently give out 1 triland after the draft to each player (there are multiples, so there's no bad feelings if you're sharing a wedge/shard). Is this free fixing? Yeah, and that's significant! But it's a level playing field, and it's not enough. That Cruel Ultimatum you picked is not gonna get there off a Crumbling Necropolis. Tamiyo, Field Researcher is gonna be really disappointed if all you've got is a Seaside Citadel. You have to prioritize fixing in the draft, but it's not something that necessarily pains you. Players now feel comfortable drafting two and a splash at all times, or even using a tricolor card - and tricolor cards are exciting and cool, and often traps in other formats. They're not traps here - they just require some work. But knowing that you get 1 triland in the end anyway, players get more curious about stretching their manabases. Before, two color with a small splash was about the best I'd get as far as manabase explorations; now, I have my drafters really learning through trial and error how they wanna fix their mana for their more ambitious decks, and that's been great over here. Meanwhile? The aggressive decks fly under those trilands and scrylands that compose a lazily-compiled manabase for a 3c/4c behemoth. There's play and counterplay.

The biggest thing to remember is that nothing is unreasonable if the playing field is level. It's unreasonable to add ten Black Lotus to your cube and expect that to be perfect fixing for everyone - that's going to lead to some level of fixing inequality that is hard to disincentivize. But a free triland alone is not gonna help you fix a manabase you don't work with. It's just a little cushion for more cautious drafters - and I have no trouble giving that cushion to the cautious drafters, because the real daredevils of a format will maximize that free fixing in their own decks, anyway. It simply adds a different dynamic to the draft, knowing you have 1 piece of insurance. Maybe it reduces some of the complexity of drafting a manabase - sure, I'll grant that. But really, who cares? Isn't the point of the game to have fun? If it's not for you, that's fine, but I think dismissing it as "unreasonable" is the same kind of looking-down-your-noseism that pushed Riptide into being on the cutting edge of cube design by wholeheartedly embracing a non-singleton, non-powermax approach, which I've seen over the year and a half I've been around still slowly trickle into other communities to this day.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
fwiw it worries me a little bit, given out a free triland for certain multi-color picks, as the player can disengage a bit from the drafting process they've chosen to go down. I'm not a big fan of player disengagement, especially when its connected to an otherwise interesting choice they opted to make. When your players are telling you they want to disengage from building mana bases, that just seems to me like something more is going on.

I haven't really thought out fully my thoughts on giving out a free triland at the end of the draft, but I do at least like that it is symmetrical in nature.
 
I'm not sure I'd classify it disengagement. There's inherent risk in picking a card with super heavy mana requirements. It limits your options and if you can't cast the card, you are pretty heavily penalized.

Most cards I think work well in the paradigm of draft where you have to be conscious of picking up fixing vs playables. Tri-color cards are so ridiculously narrow though, they are mostly unsupportable. Cruel Ultimatum is a really cool card to try and make a deck around, but the cost is ridiculous for a draft.

So I guess, I like the idea of helping the Cruel Ultimatum player, but maybe not the guy who snatched up Lightning Angel.

ULD still seems probably the easiest way to address this though. Cruel Ultimatum guy will have the advantage of knowing whether is deck supports it, then goes and grabs the tri-land as his/her ULD pick.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
fwiw it worries me a little bit, given out a free triland for certain multi-color picks, as the player can disengage a bit from the drafting process they've chosen to go down. I'm not a big fan of player disengagement, especially when its connected to an otherwise interesting choice they opted to make. When your players are telling you they want to disengage from building mana bases, that just seems to me like something more is going on.
How is it disengaging? It may look like super fixing, but in reality, people don't often go for three color picks, because it's much safer to build a two color deck. Adding the free triland actually accomplishes people to not only draft the three color cards, but also ensures people are actively trying to include the good three color drops. So, three color cards have gone from regular wheel bait to interesting options!
 
fwiw it worries me a little bit, given out a free triland for certain multi-color picks, as the player can disengage a bit from the drafting process they've chosen to go down. I'm not a big fan of player disengagement, especially when its connected to an otherwise interesting choice they opted to make. When your players are telling you they want to disengage from building mana bases, that just seems to me like something more is going on.

I haven't really thought out fully my thoughts on giving out a free triland at the end of the draft, but I do at least like that it is symmetrical in nature.

Not everyone has fun by being "maximally engaged" in the draft process, though. Not everyone can be, or even wants to be, maximally engaged. Consider the countless different ways people are gonna come into a draft, their various preferences, whims, day-to-day annoyances, distractions, their worries about bills, their anxieties, their mood, how their relationships are going, their appetite, how drunk they are... People bring a lot of baggage into a game, and they're all looking to take something different out of it. Considering this, I don't think we can easily put a blanket estimate on the value of "maximum player engagement re: drafting a successful manabase". In the same way that all players don't agree on what makes a game they like fun, I don't think we can necessarily pin down, successfully and for all play groups, a definitive valuation on "player engagement", because when you try to maximize "player engagement", that's really just another way of saying "I want everything to matter at all times, and for there to be stakes for not paying rapt attention". That's all well and fine if your playgroup is a bunch of spikes who grind tournaments all the time, but that's not gonna be fun for a lot of other play groups. Different strokes for different folks.
 
I grow more tempted by the second to provide a free Evolving Wilds to each drafter after the draft. Maybe that would lead me to trimming my land section, maybe not. I do think it would be greatly appreciated by a lot of drafters in the group. At the very least I can toss down a pile of Wilds on the table and bring up the suggestion. I, like Onder, have definitely run into more than one person who just doesn't really want to deal with lands until they have to.

How do people know how to take these cards out at the end? Do you put little stickers inside the sleeve, colored perfect fit? Whadda people do around here?

And all this discussion has made me realize that I don't actually run Mana Confluence! Definitely will find a slot for it, land is great.
 
How do people know how to take these cards out at the end? Do you put little stickers inside the sleeve, colored perfect fit? Whadda people do around here?

And all this discussion has made me realize that I don't actually run Mana Confluence! Definitely will find a slot for it, land is great.


I got these little star stickers for my Utility Land Draft at a craft store for pretty cheap. I put them on the perfect fit and they work great.


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If you were forbidden from using invasive solutions, how would you solve this problem for a format?


Define invasive?

Wizard's already addressed it I think with cards like Yasova Dragonclaw. That's tricolor but is more playable than a two color gold card.

My feeling is that tri-color cards have to be really good and very splashable. Lightning Angel is plain good in my retro list, so if you are in two of the colors you might splash for it. Cruel Ultimatum is just not a draft format friendly card. Which is a shame because it's a big splashy card that is attractive to try and draft.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Define invasive?

Wizard's already addressed it I think with cards like Yasova Dragonclaw. That's tricolor but is more playable than a two color gold card.

My feeling is that tri-color cards have to be really good and very splashable. Lightning Angel is plain good in my retro list, so if you are in two of the colors you might splash for it. Cruel Ultimatum is just not a draft format friendly card. Which is a shame because it's a big splashy card that is attractive to try and draft.


With the amount of control we have over our formats, its often times easier to just change the rules of the draft, rather than putting the format under a microscope, even though that thought exercise is often times beneficial regardless of if we ultimately go with the invasive solution or not.

If you have grixis control decks, for example, cruel ultimatum should be fine as a build around. It can either be a late pickup for them (and multi-color slots are ideal for exciting but narrow cards) or early inspiration in the draft. Maybe there are issues with the health of those decks we should be looking at, or the health of that shard.

Or maybe our fixing is insufficient, per that karsten article you provided, and there are general problems with supporting three color decks that should be addressed via artifact/land/or main cube fixing options. Maybe there are creative ways to do this in the body of the format that would be over all beneficial to it, and make it more fun.

Putting it under the microscope, we might find out something interesting, such as perhaps that players find three color cards stressful to draft, since they feel pressured to take fixing early in the draft. Maybe this is an irrational fear, maybe its a rational fear. Perhaps they have specific opinions on how they would prefer to see three color cards in the cube (like your dragon claw example) and we should up the number of cards like that.

Lots of interesting data you can dig up.
 
Very reasonable viewpoint. Cruel Ultimatum is sort of an extreme case too, given that it requires 7 sources of colored mana (and 3 different colors). I think maybe this has been in a draft or two and no one tried it. So I have insufficient data to say if it's supportable or not. On paper, it looks daunting but potentially worthwhile due to the power of the card and how exciting it will feel slamming it and wrecking the game state (well, I would find it exciting anyway).
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Very reasonable viewpoint. Cruel Ultimatum is sort of an extreme case too, given that it requires 7 sources of colored mana (and 3 different colors). I think maybe this has been in a draft or two and no one tried it. So I have insufficient data to say if it's supportable or not. On paper, it looks daunting but potentially worthwhile due to the power of the card and how exciting it will feel slamming it and wrecking the game state (well, I would find it exciting anyway).

It gets consistently drafted in my cube, and I have seen it cast multiple times. Card is awesome!
 
I use triangles cut out of Washi Tape on the corner inside the sleeve. It looks good, is reasonably discreet, doesn't get affected by shuffling and lasts a while (have been using for a year, and every single one is still there). The downside is that it takes a lot of work and some skill to get it right. Special thanks to my wife, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for you <3

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Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
On the one hand this looks fantastic, on the other hand I'm wondering if the tape is visible from the back of the card. That would be bad (on principle, regardless of whether there are cheaters in your group, don't play with cheaters folks!)
 

Laz

Developer
I kind of want to build a format where the mana base is some large number of Aether Hubs. See how far we can push the fact that energy goes in two directions, with coloured energy producing cards able to feed into the mana fixing, and colourless energy consuming cards able to eat up the energy it provides. It is sort of like fixing for everyone, even heavily colourless decks.
 
On the one hand this looks fantastic, on the other hand I'm wondering if the tape is visible from the back of the card. That would be bad (on principle, regardless of whether there are cheaters in your group, don't play with cheaters folks!)

It's not visible. I had this concern too, but the tape is glued just below the point where it would be, and it's thin enough that you can't even feel the thickness if you try.
 
It's not visible. I had this concern too, but the tape is glued just below the point where it would be, and it's thin enough that you can't even feel the thickness if you try.

What was the point of the markings?

I kind of want to build a format where the mana base is some large number of Aether Hubs. See how far we can push the fact that energy goes in two directions, with coloured energy producing cards able to feed into the mana fixing, and colourless energy consuming cards able to eat up the energy it provides. It is sort of like fixing for everyone, even heavily colourless decks.
Neat opportunity to then also run some of the brown mana eldrazis.
 
Ah, happy, happy decks! that cannot shed
Your Strix, nor ever bid the Finks adieu;​
And, happy comboist, unweari-ed,
Forever brewing decks forever new;​
More happy picks! more happy, happy picks!
Forever fresh and still to be enjoyed,​
Forever splashing, and forever fun;​
All shockland drafting pasttime done to fix,
That leaves a heart high-sorrowful and cloyed,​
A goodstuff pile, and a Thragtusk run.​
 
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