General CBS

TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Onderzeeboot said:
We were talking about the changelings in Modern Horizons. Still, Chameleon Colossus's design is marred by its protection from black ability.
Click to expand...

Although I usually think protection is an inelegant and horrid ability, I think Chameleon Colossus is one of the only cards that makes good use of it. This simple ability prevents colossus from dying to most Terror effects. Since it's too big to die to most burn spells, blue doesn't have hard removal, and green is only allowed fight effects, that means Chameleon Colossus can only permanently be removed by a white removal spell.

Given the context of the colossus, the Pro Black ability actually ends up playing out as a less annoying (for the opponent) Hexproof in the majority of situations.
 
psly4mne

psly4mne

I disagree. White can remove Colossus, blue can bounce or steal it, red can hit it with two small burns or a sweeper. Black can't even chump block it. You'd have more of a point if Colossus was balanced around having evasion.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Yup, would have been totally fine if it had hexproof from black, permanent protection just sucks in my opinion. The only thing it has going for it, is that it can act as a natural safety valve in constructed formats, where, if, for example, blue decks are running rampant, it becomes viable to run pro blue creatures. But meh... Remember how cool Vine Mare was in M19 limited? Yeah, me neither, and protection is even worse...
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

psly4mne said:
I disagree. White can remove Colossus, blue can bounce or steal it, red can hit it with two small burns or a sweeper. Black can't even chump block it. You'd have more of a point if Colossus was balanced around having evasion.
Click to expand...

But black very rarely wants to be chump-blocking, bounce spells generally aren't good enough to warrant playing, most white removal is either expensive, conditional, or temporary, and red having to use two burn spells still puts you up a card. Colossus only blanks black's 1-for-1 removal, meaning that the opponent has to interact with it by doing something more interesting than casting Terror.

Onderzeeboot said:
Yup, would have been totally fine if it had hexproof from black, permanent protection just sucks in my opinion. The only thing it has going for it, is that it can act as a natural safety valve in constructed formats, where, if, for example, blue decks are running rampant, it becomes viable to run pro blue creatures. But meh... Remember how cool Vine Mare was in M19 limited? Yeah, me neither, and protection is even worse...
Click to expand...

I don't really like built-in protection either, but that doesn't instantly kill a card's interesting nature. I would argue that Chameleon Colossus is cooler because it has protection.

I don't think Vine Mare is a fair comparison to colossus, even though they do have a similar basic setup. It is virtually impossible to interact with a Vine Mare except by blocking it with a non-black creature. Hexproof is a far better keyword than pro-black by almost every metric because it completely shuts down the opponent's ability to interact with the card.

M19 limited was just generally very un-cool.
 
japahn

japahn

I think Vine Mare would have been less bad if it was pro-black. Hexproof protects it against more spells than pro-black does, and in terms of blocking it's the same.

I don't hate protection against color in general, but I find it unnecessary and rules-heavy. Double protection is what's really bad - completely shuts down some decks. Great Sable Stag was only fair because UB was very strong in my cube in the very beginning.

I want to add to the sentiment that it was unfortunate the Changelings in MH1 weren't better. I'm testing Birthing Boughs which will hopefully be playable in a slow environment, but that's it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dbs
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Erik Twice said:
I'm increasingly sad about the fact that the Modern Horizon changelings aren't good enough.

The idea of making tribal more viable in draft by giving some cards all creature types is very smart. It turns parasitic or pseudo-parasitic cards into cards that can be played by a large portion of the table. In a cube, it could turn interesting tribal picks into pay-offs and introduce competition between tribal and non-tribal decks.

But all the included changelings are weak. The best of the bunch is a Gravedigger variant because giving all creature types to the typical 3/1 draft creature isn't an actual incentive. I understand that Wizards is wary of making a card that ends up seeing play in any and all tribal decks ever created but I would have liked something I could put in my cube. After all, it's not like Modern, Legacy and Vintage are going to be affected much by a solid tribal creature. It doesn't need to be something powerful, just a versatile utility card. A Looter Changeling, for example, wouldbn't be overpowered but it could be interesting.

I also wish all Kithkins were rebels.
Click to expand...

Stick David Bowie stickers on the sleeves for eratta! (Rebel Rebel)
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I get that Vinemare's hexproof is better at protecting it than pro-black vs other colors, but remember the matches against mono-black decks with that thing? That's how pro-black feels for an opposing mono-black player, that was my point. Hexproof, by the way, is another mechanic I strongly dislike. I had the feeling they finally struck the right balance with "hexproof from x", as a diluted mix of "protection from x" and regular hexproof, so seeing them go back to protection is frustrating, because it means there's now again a number of cards that I'm automatically not going to add my cube.
 
Brad

Brad



They almost got the design right here, but the first strike and the oversized body make it difficult to win a fight with until the midgame. My format would LOVE a reasonable hexproof from black card. This guy with no first strike or Vinemare with its abilities combined into one "Hexproof from black" line would be very interesting for me.

I agree that "Hex from X" is a good design space. Make it a little problematic, but not a game-ender because your opponent played X.
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Brad said:


They almost got the design right here, but the first strike and the oversized body make it difficult to win a fight with until the midgame. My format would LOVE a reasonable hexproof from black card. This guy with no first strike or Vinemare with its abilities combined into one "Hexproof from black" line would be very interesting for me.

I agree that "Hex from X" is a good design space. Make it a little problematic, but not a game-ender because your opponent played X.
Click to expand...


I totally agree. "Hexproof from" should have been on more cards. There is a lot of design space there left being untapped.
 
Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

Luckily I believe that the person involved in leading this core set isn't involved in the coming fall set? So maybe we'll only see "protection from color" making a brief return. It really is just such a waste of cards.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Rasmus Källqvist said:
Luckily I believe that the person involved in leading this core set isn't involved in the coming fall set? So maybe we'll only see "protection from color" making a brief return. It really is just such a waste of cards.
Click to expand...
Don't get your hopes up, core sets are usually indicative of the current design mindset.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Chances are it doesn't hold up, but the MTGO Pro Tour Cube is very much like I wanted my cube to be when I first started looking into the format. I wonder what kind of inspiration to take from it.
 
ravnic

ravnic

Hey guys, before I open one, didn't we already have a thread for cards, that one added to their cube without high expectations and they were better than one thought?
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Regarding protection, something that stuck with me was I believe Marshall from Limited Resources saying that "Protection from color" is like 4 different abilities at once. And it's true. It gives a creature hexproof, unblockeable, prevents all damage when blocking and makes it immune to board-wide effects like Pyroclasm.

I don't know why Wizards decided to bring it back. On a similar line, I don't understand why Rosewater, who considers the "free mechanic" from Urza Block to be one of his biggest design mistakes is also okey with giving Planeswalkers that ability. Nissa wouldn't be the most powerful card in Standard right now if she didn't get a GG rebate the turn she comes on the table. And Teferi wouldn't be so much over the curve if he didn't get a rebate, either.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Took a poke around, looks promising!
1) Updated platform, open source (cubetutor is running on some old tech)
2) Card images are VIA scryfall, so during spoiler season you can add cards literal minutes after cards come out
3) Cubes can be sorted lots of different ways (Color > Power, CMC > Type, etc)
4) Import from cubetutor feature :p, export list

Drafting is available, can't comment on how well it works, since I can't see card images at work.
I'm gonna check this out. Hopefully there's a way for me to upload scans, because I can't really host my cube anywhere that can't because of the custom cards.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top