Could these cards ever go into a prowess or other "spells matter" deck? Because that would be cool.
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- Thread starter James Stevenson
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I could see that. But it would be tricky if you have spells payoffs, like prowess creatures or such that want to be on the board before you cast all your spells, because that's the opposite of what you want with ramp spells.
I guess these spells ramp twice for stuff like Tolarian Terror.
Yeah that's true. I was hoping there was a way to extend the spells matter archetype into green but probably a bridge too far.
there's Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse, the various Quirion Dryad/Deeproot Champion/Dragonsguard Elites of the world - it's not unheard of, it just rarely wants to be doing specifically Rampant Growth.
that said, aiming for the specific overlap of... like, Explore, and Nature's Lore/Three Visits? I'm tempted by those because they effectively "refund" you a mana by getting an untapped land into play (Explore can whiff if you don't have the land to play, but you get what I mean) at which point you're paying a net 1 mana to get a land into play, and that's valuable even if it still takes more than that to really "go off"
I don't think that ramp spells generally go in prowess decks because the pinch there is usually having spells to cast rather than mana to cast them - Nature's Lore and Opt ultimately cost you one mana on the turns you cast them, but Nature's Lore does nothing else that turn while Opt lets you dig two cards deep into your deck to potentially give you another spell to cast.
That said, having a big ramp deck whose ramp target is Primeval Bounty honestly seems pretty fun and potentially spellslinger-y?
That said, having a big ramp deck whose ramp target is Primeval Bounty honestly seems pretty fun and potentially spellslinger-y?
Yeah. I think my original thought was when ravnic brought up the idea of mana dorks vs ramp spells I was thinking between the two, ramp spells have broader appeal because you want them in a ramp deck but also in a lands matter. To Ravnic's point, a ramp deck wants to be playing them on curve but a lands matter deck could be very content to play them late game to trigger stuff.
I got really excited that they might ALSO appeal to a spellslingery deck. Not sure yet on that one, though Seeker and LadyMapi make good arguments.
I got really excited that they might ALSO appeal to a spellslingery deck. Not sure yet on that one, though Seeker and LadyMapi make good arguments.
Mana dorks are still very powerful in accelerating you to the 3 and 4 drops that are very much above rate nowadays, but it's tougher to keep them around to reach the big ramp payoffs. As such I don't really think super ramp into gigantic bodies at 7+ is all that viable in higher powered environments with so much interaction nowadays, but it's still possible via rocks and other means of generating multiple mana. The better option is probably to focus upon impact 5s and 6s as your ramp targets and make sure anything above that is also viable with early reanimation. That will keep ramp as a possible archetype without feeling like an all-or-nothing kind of proposition.
Like I'm still a fan of Woodfall Primus due to it's resiliency and how effective it can be when reanimated early, but I wouldn't really think of it as a ramp target unless everything aligns correctly. An early Summon: Titan or the classic Primeval Titan is more what I think of as ramp targets in G/x decks nowadays.
Like I'm still a fan of Woodfall Primus due to it's resiliency and how effective it can be when reanimated early, but I wouldn't really think of it as a ramp target unless everything aligns correctly. An early Summon: Titan or the classic Primeval Titan is more what I think of as ramp targets in G/x decks nowadays.
I think it's less of a high vs. low power thing and more of a speed thing? A good rule of thumb is that, barring some nutty synergies, each extra mana you ramp into costs you a turn. In most formats you can take one turn off to set-up and power out your midgame before villain is ready, but you need a format where you can feasibly survive skipping 2-3 turns for classic big ramp to work without pushing the ramp targets to the point where they invalidate the early game entirely.
Another rule of thumb: if your format could theoretically support draw-go control, then any finisher for draw-go is also a reasonable big ramp target. They're basically the same macroarchetype - good ol' "the mana curve ends when I say it ends".
(This is basically just me agreeing with shamizy's assessment that your ramp targets should be 5s and 6s, since most formats are going to have the curve for most "normal" decks top out at 4-drops. A little ramp lets you run more of the big fat curve toppers - a lot of ramp lets you push a little further beyond into the "scary cheat idiots" region.)
Another rule of thumb: if your format could theoretically support draw-go control, then any finisher for draw-go is also a reasonable big ramp target. They're basically the same macroarchetype - good ol' "the mana curve ends when I say it ends".
(This is basically just me agreeing with shamizy's assessment that your ramp targets should be 5s and 6s, since most formats are going to have the curve for most "normal" decks top out at 4-drops. A little ramp lets you run more of the big fat curve toppers - a lot of ramp lets you push a little further beyond into the "scary cheat idiots" region.)
This describes one of the reasons I'm not vibing with my own cube lately.To expand on Ravnic's point, one major issue regarding ramp discourse is that people have historically conflated the "unga bunga" style of ramp (i.e. ramp into a 4-5-6 drop on turns 3-4-5 and win off of being both being a turn ahead of schedule and their threats being inherently larger than non-Green threats) and Craterhoof Behemoth or Eldrazi-style of ramp which hopes to spin its gears, vomit out dorks, and slam a single major threat T5-7 and end the game in short order off of the back of that. The first leads to a lot more dynamic gameplay than the second, which is very feast or famine in part because it's an "A + A + A + A + B" combo deck, and so is really vulnerable to poor draws because the A cards don't do anything besides chump block, whereas a deck like storm draws cards with its A cards and so feels like you can dig your way out of a hole.
The main difference between each is the density of dorks required. Unga Bunga style (which for the record is a term I hate by a guy I find distasteful, but it's quite evocative and is a good search term if you want to read more on this subject) likes a handful of dorks (4-6) because you don't really want to draw more than 2, and ideally only want to see 1. If you're short on dorks, your deck is still a stompy deck, you just don't get to high roll. However, this has been a minority of cubes, though it's gained in prominence.
In Ramp decks, you want to see a bunch of dorks (idk 10-12?) and you deck doesn't go off unless you get 2-4 of them in a given game, depending on precisely what your targets are. The cubes that support the latter tend to require 25-33% of their green section to be dedicated ramp pieces, which is a ton of real estate for something that supports one inconsistent deck. However, this is what has historically been Green's role in MTGO Vintage Cube-style cubes, and it's been a dominant archetype for Green a while now. So a lot of the historic pushback is likely a shorthand way of saying that one is against this style rather than that one hates all 1-mana ramp cards per se.
Personally, I find that small-r ramp leads to better games, whereas Ramp leads to a lot of people chasing that overkill feeling. That can be a lot of fun, but it's definitionally ships-passing-in-the-night Magic at its peak . . . except the other ship can fire cannons at your sailors and very easily take them out while they're assembling your bigass combo finish, which is a weakness that most other combo decks do not have. As a base-Green deck, you do not have a way to retaliate, so it's build or die. You can chump with your Elves, which can sometimes be a skill-testing and fun line to explore, but often once you start chumping you don't stop.
In short, ramp = good! lots of dorks = historically popular, yet flawed. dedicated ramp targets without other ways to use them = bad
Most of the times ramp has the previously mentioned problem of a lot of setup cards with a few payoff cards. Too many/few of one of the two and you whiff. Which differs from the dig/draw combos. Creature ramp mitigates this problem but introduces other problems.
Maybe tacking cycling or something similar to the ramp solves the problem. If reanimator is not a problem then add it to the payoffs as well! (By the way, that is the reason why the payoffs do not have cycling on them, but maybe exile draw?).
Maybe tacking cycling or something similar to the ramp solves the problem. If reanimator is not a problem then add it to the payoffs as well! (By the way, that is the reason why the payoffs do not have cycling on them, but maybe exile draw?).