Could these cards ever go into a prowess or other "spells matter" deck? Because that would be cool.
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- Thread starter James Stevenson
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I could see that. But it would be tricky if you have spells payoffs, like prowess creatures or such that want to be on the board before you cast all your spells, because that's the opposite of what you want with ramp spells.
I guess these spells ramp twice for stuff like Tolarian Terror.
Yeah that's true. I was hoping there was a way to extend the spells matter archetype into green but probably a bridge too far.
there's Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse, the various Quirion Dryad/Deeproot Champion/Dragonsguard Elites of the world - it's not unheard of, it just rarely wants to be doing specifically Rampant Growth.
that said, aiming for the specific overlap of... like, Explore, and Nature's Lore/Three Visits? I'm tempted by those because they effectively "refund" you a mana by getting an untapped land into play (Explore can whiff if you don't have the land to play, but you get what I mean) at which point you're paying a net 1 mana to get a land into play, and that's valuable even if it still takes more than that to really "go off"
I don't think that ramp spells generally go in prowess decks because the pinch there is usually having spells to cast rather than mana to cast them - Nature's Lore and Opt ultimately cost you one mana on the turns you cast them, but Nature's Lore does nothing else that turn while Opt lets you dig two cards deep into your deck to potentially give you another spell to cast.
That said, having a big ramp deck whose ramp target is Primeval Bounty honestly seems pretty fun and potentially spellslinger-y?
That said, having a big ramp deck whose ramp target is Primeval Bounty honestly seems pretty fun and potentially spellslinger-y?
Yeah. I think my original thought was when ravnic brought up the idea of mana dorks vs ramp spells I was thinking between the two, ramp spells have broader appeal because you want them in a ramp deck but also in a lands matter. To Ravnic's point, a ramp deck wants to be playing them on curve but a lands matter deck could be very content to play them late game to trigger stuff.
I got really excited that they might ALSO appeal to a spellslingery deck. Not sure yet on that one, though Seeker and LadyMapi make good arguments.
I got really excited that they might ALSO appeal to a spellslingery deck. Not sure yet on that one, though Seeker and LadyMapi make good arguments.
Mana dorks are still very powerful in accelerating you to the 3 and 4 drops that are very much above rate nowadays, but it's tougher to keep them around to reach the big ramp payoffs. As such I don't really think super ramp into gigantic bodies at 7+ is all that viable in higher powered environments with so much interaction nowadays, but it's still possible via rocks and other means of generating multiple mana. The better option is probably to focus upon impact 5s and 6s as your ramp targets and make sure anything above that is also viable with early reanimation. That will keep ramp as a possible archetype without feeling like an all-or-nothing kind of proposition.
Like I'm still a fan of Woodfall Primus due to it's resiliency and how effective it can be when reanimated early, but I wouldn't really think of it as a ramp target unless everything aligns correctly. An early Summon: Titan or the classic Primeval Titan is more what I think of as ramp targets in G/x decks nowadays.
Like I'm still a fan of Woodfall Primus due to it's resiliency and how effective it can be when reanimated early, but I wouldn't really think of it as a ramp target unless everything aligns correctly. An early Summon: Titan or the classic Primeval Titan is more what I think of as ramp targets in G/x decks nowadays.
I think it's less of a high vs. low power thing and more of a speed thing? A good rule of thumb is that, barring some nutty synergies, each extra mana you ramp into costs you a turn. In most formats you can take one turn off to set-up and power out your midgame before villain is ready, but you need a format where you can feasibly survive skipping 2-3 turns for classic big ramp to work without pushing the ramp targets to the point where they invalidate the early game entirely.
Another rule of thumb: if your format could theoretically support draw-go control, then any finisher for draw-go is also a reasonable big ramp target. They're basically the same macroarchetype - good ol' "the mana curve ends when I say it ends".
(This is basically just me agreeing with shamizy's assessment that your ramp targets should be 5s and 6s, since most formats are going to have the curve for most "normal" decks top out at 4-drops. A little ramp lets you run more of the big fat curve toppers - a lot of ramp lets you push a little further beyond into the "scary cheat idiots" region.)
Another rule of thumb: if your format could theoretically support draw-go control, then any finisher for draw-go is also a reasonable big ramp target. They're basically the same macroarchetype - good ol' "the mana curve ends when I say it ends".
(This is basically just me agreeing with shamizy's assessment that your ramp targets should be 5s and 6s, since most formats are going to have the curve for most "normal" decks top out at 4-drops. A little ramp lets you run more of the big fat curve toppers - a lot of ramp lets you push a little further beyond into the "scary cheat idiots" region.)
This describes one of the reasons I'm not vibing with my own cube lately.To expand on Ravnic's point, one major issue regarding ramp discourse is that people have historically conflated the "unga bunga" style of ramp (i.e. ramp into a 4-5-6 drop on turns 3-4-5 and win off of being both being a turn ahead of schedule and their threats being inherently larger than non-Green threats) and Craterhoof Behemoth or Eldrazi-style of ramp which hopes to spin its gears, vomit out dorks, and slam a single major threat T5-7 and end the game in short order off of the back of that. The first leads to a lot more dynamic gameplay than the second, which is very feast or famine in part because it's an "A + A + A + A + B" combo deck, and so is really vulnerable to poor draws because the A cards don't do anything besides chump block, whereas a deck like storm draws cards with its A cards and so feels like you can dig your way out of a hole.
The main difference between each is the density of dorks required. Unga Bunga style (which for the record is a term I hate by a guy I find distasteful, but it's quite evocative and is a good search term if you want to read more on this subject) likes a handful of dorks (4-6) because you don't really want to draw more than 2, and ideally only want to see 1. If you're short on dorks, your deck is still a stompy deck, you just don't get to high roll. However, this has been a minority of cubes, though it's gained in prominence.
In Ramp decks, you want to see a bunch of dorks (idk 10-12?) and you deck doesn't go off unless you get 2-4 of them in a given game, depending on precisely what your targets are. The cubes that support the latter tend to require 25-33% of their green section to be dedicated ramp pieces, which is a ton of real estate for something that supports one inconsistent deck. However, this is what has historically been Green's role in MTGO Vintage Cube-style cubes, and it's been a dominant archetype for Green a while now. So a lot of the historic pushback is likely a shorthand way of saying that one is against this style rather than that one hates all 1-mana ramp cards per se.
Personally, I find that small-r ramp leads to better games, whereas Ramp leads to a lot of people chasing that overkill feeling. That can be a lot of fun, but it's definitionally ships-passing-in-the-night Magic at its peak . . . except the other ship can fire cannons at your sailors and very easily take them out while they're assembling your bigass combo finish, which is a weakness that most other combo decks do not have. As a base-Green deck, you do not have a way to retaliate, so it's build or die. You can chump with your Elves, which can sometimes be a skill-testing and fun line to explore, but often once you start chumping you don't stop.
In short, ramp = good! lots of dorks = historically popular, yet flawed. dedicated ramp targets without other ways to use them = bad
Most of the times ramp has the previously mentioned problem of a lot of setup cards with a few payoff cards. Too many/few of one of the two and you whiff. Which differs from the dig/draw combos. Creature ramp mitigates this problem but introduces other problems.
Maybe tacking cycling or something similar to the ramp solves the problem. If reanimator is not a problem then add it to the payoffs as well! (By the way, that is the reason why the payoffs do not have cycling on them, but maybe exile draw?).
Maybe tacking cycling or something similar to the ramp solves the problem. If reanimator is not a problem then add it to the payoffs as well! (By the way, that is the reason why the payoffs do not have cycling on them, but maybe exile draw?).
Related to the talk about ramping to 6 MV instead of 8+, what is people's thoughts on reanimating at more of a 6-7 MV level? I'd like to run 2-3 cards like Blood for Bones, Dread Return, and Diabolical Servitude as midrange value spells that target stuff like Pentavus, Tyrant of Kher Ridges. I struggle a bit to find the right level of threats for my cube, but maybe Goremand is ok. I have a Huskburster Swarm that seems fine.
This means that reanimator isn't a deck, but instead I want a spell or two as a fun addition to a deck that already runs the various discard and self-mill stuff in my cube. Does anybody have success with that approach?
Related to reanimator targets, what's the experience with Massacre Wurm? Is this a fun card in a low to medium power cube?
This means that reanimator isn't a deck, but instead I want a spell or two as a fun addition to a deck that already runs the various discard and self-mill stuff in my cube. Does anybody have success with that approach?
Related to reanimator targets, what's the experience with Massacre Wurm? Is this a fun card in a low to medium power cube?
I like everything you say. All those cards you consider seem appropriate and fun, except ... Massacre Wurm. I don't think that card is very fun if you're mid/lower power level. It can wreck a whole board, is completely one-sided and it can't be overstated how annoying that static ability is even after you might've come back from the little plague wind.
I actually just put Arbiter of Woe on my shopping list today. I like it. I think it's my favorite of the 6 MV fliers, but I wanted to look at my options.
I do like the idea of multi-purpose fatties, or fatties that have an ability from the graveyard.
Out of that list, I think Gravewaker is a little too slow, while Tyrannical Pitlord might be a little too strong. I think any of these would be in the ballpark and would work ok for my purposes.
Some non-fliers:
I like a card that helps to end the game like Calculating Lich or Dreadhound, but the latter seems too weak as a big dork with no evasion, and its initial ETB just does a point or two of damage. I think I like Huskburster Swarm better than any of these, with Calculating Lich also appealing to me. Noxious Gearhulk could be a consideration if I want to get more aggressive with the power level; I don't love blanket kill effects on ETB, but at 6 mana I can see it, and the 5/4 menace body is strong but fair.
At mana value of 5, I want the card to be strong enough to be worth the while, but not a Baneslayer Angel. It's a tough balance. I really like Charging Monstrosaur and Ant Queen. I could use a card like that in black. A 5 mana card is still worth reanimating or ramping into, and it needs to be good enough to help me win against the aggro that has been pounding at me for the first 3-4 turns.
I tried Fallen Angel, but nobody every puts it in their deck so far. In theory I think it could be a decent threat to win a game since I have some good fodder to sacrifice to it and an aristocrats theme. In general, it feels too weak when a 5 MV flier is only 3/3 or 3/4 unless it has some decently powerful rules text, like Specter of Mortality. Do I want a raw 4/4 stat monster like Sengir Vampire? I'm not sure, probably not. Bone Dragon seems like a little too much at 5/4 for 5, but I'm not really sure about that, either. I think a French vanilla 5/5 flier for 6 mana would be a touch too weak, so maybe virtual-french-vanilla one at 5 mana is ok.
Overall, it's awkward to run big fliers at all, because it's so hard to actually block them and kill them. I don't really like the way they play, and I'd rather feature menace and trample as evasion abilities. It feels bad to have "normal" fliers that mostly have power 1 or 2, and then have bombs that make the little fliers irrelevant except as chump blockers. I can see the fun of playing with a bomb dragon, though, and the cube does have ways to deal with it.
Nonfliers at 5 MV:
I find this to be a tough group to pick from. I have Necrogoyf and Morkrut Banshee in my list. I don't think I would run Priest of the Blood Rite, but I've had thoughts of making it easier to remove big tokens like 6/6 wurms (various ways to do that), and that might put him into consideration. I'd say Loathsome Curator is actually pretty appealing since it has a fair ETB and a 5/4 menace body, which is a decent power level for a 5 drop. I'll probably keep the simpler Morkrut Banshee, since it's down to 3 lines of text and it got better art (the original art was a bit much).
I do like the idea of multi-purpose fatties, or fatties that have an ability from the graveyard.
Out of that list, I think Gravewaker is a little too slow, while Tyrannical Pitlord might be a little too strong. I think any of these would be in the ballpark and would work ok for my purposes.
Some non-fliers:
I like a card that helps to end the game like Calculating Lich or Dreadhound, but the latter seems too weak as a big dork with no evasion, and its initial ETB just does a point or two of damage. I think I like Huskburster Swarm better than any of these, with Calculating Lich also appealing to me. Noxious Gearhulk could be a consideration if I want to get more aggressive with the power level; I don't love blanket kill effects on ETB, but at 6 mana I can see it, and the 5/4 menace body is strong but fair.
At mana value of 5, I want the card to be strong enough to be worth the while, but not a Baneslayer Angel. It's a tough balance. I really like Charging Monstrosaur and Ant Queen. I could use a card like that in black. A 5 mana card is still worth reanimating or ramping into, and it needs to be good enough to help me win against the aggro that has been pounding at me for the first 3-4 turns.
I tried Fallen Angel, but nobody every puts it in their deck so far. In theory I think it could be a decent threat to win a game since I have some good fodder to sacrifice to it and an aristocrats theme. In general, it feels too weak when a 5 MV flier is only 3/3 or 3/4 unless it has some decently powerful rules text, like Specter of Mortality. Do I want a raw 4/4 stat monster like Sengir Vampire? I'm not sure, probably not. Bone Dragon seems like a little too much at 5/4 for 5, but I'm not really sure about that, either. I think a French vanilla 5/5 flier for 6 mana would be a touch too weak, so maybe virtual-french-vanilla one at 5 mana is ok.
Overall, it's awkward to run big fliers at all, because it's so hard to actually block them and kill them. I don't really like the way they play, and I'd rather feature menace and trample as evasion abilities. It feels bad to have "normal" fliers that mostly have power 1 or 2, and then have bombs that make the little fliers irrelevant except as chump blockers. I can see the fun of playing with a bomb dragon, though, and the cube does have ways to deal with it.
Nonfliers at 5 MV:
I find this to be a tough group to pick from. I have Necrogoyf and Morkrut Banshee in my list. I don't think I would run Priest of the Blood Rite, but I've had thoughts of making it easier to remove big tokens like 6/6 wurms (various ways to do that), and that might put him into consideration. I'd say Loathsome Curator is actually pretty appealing since it has a fair ETB and a 5/4 menace body, which is a decent power level for a 5 drop. I'll probably keep the simpler Morkrut Banshee, since it's down to 3 lines of text and it got better art (the original art was a bit much).