General 17 card packs

[Dougggggg]

This is basically just a spinoff of the utility land draft. I want all those amazing nonbasic lands for my cube but I want them to cost real picks. The solution I came up with was by simply increasing the size of the packs and increasing the lands per pack. I feel like 3.5 lands per pack is where I want to be, perhaps that number is off?

Anyone ever try something like this? If not then what do you guys think?

 

[anotak]

yes actually
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/5125

i've never actually drafted this list though

 

[Jonas]

I once tried 18 cards per packed, and that sucked. It sadly felt like half a pack of crap and last picks.

 

[Dougggggg]

I once tried 18 cards per packed, and that sucked. It sadly felt like half a pack of crap and last picks.

How many lands per pack out of curiosity? I like idea of using those extra spots for lands because of the low opportunity cost of nonbasic lands. Sure many of those lands might end up frequently going around the table as getting enough playables is often priority number one. However, I could see getting a cycling land in the last 2 picks that could make my deck if it is in my colors.

 

[Eric Chan]

I.. actually did the opposite. To compensate for the utility draft giving everyone three extra lands, I've gone down to 14-card packs. This way, people still end up with the 45 cards they used to get before.

I think just shoving more lands into packs and calling it a day may not accomplish what you want. People will still value the spells higher than the lands - way higher! - and pick them accordingly, not realizing that they've now amassed 31 sweet spells but can still only run 23 of them. Decreasing the pack size is my somewhat heavy-handed attempt to address that problem.

 

[Dougggggg]

I.. actually did the opposite. To compensate for the utility draft giving everyone three extra lands, I've gone down to 14-card packs. This way, people still end up with the 45 cards they used to get before.

I think just shoving more lands into packs and calling it a day may not accomplish what you want. People will still value the spells higher than the lands - way higher! - and pick them accordingly, not realizing that they've now amassed 31 sweet spells but can still only run 23 of them. Decreasing the pack size is my somewhat heavy-handed attempt to address that problem.

One could say it is a skill to recognize when you have enough cards to put together a sweet main deck so instead of getting a card that won't make your main deck, you can pick up a land or even a card that would be in your sideboard.

By "one" I mean myself.

 

[Eric Chan]

Absolutely. But instilling that skill on my playgroup would be a Herculean task, when nearly all of them are casual players at best. This is where I've chosen to "fix" this problem for my players, without them needing to realize that a problem exists, never mind that it's being solved for them. Like I said, a bit heavy-handed, but it seems to work for my drafters.

 

[Jonas]

How many lands per pack out of curiosity? I like idea of using those extra spots for lands because of the low opportunity cost of nonbasic lands. Sure many of those lands might end up frequently going around the table as getting enough playables is often priority number one. However, I could see getting a cycling land in the last 2 picks that could make my deck if it is in my colors.

There were no extra lands, just 18 cards. It was an experience no-one appreciated.

@eric 14 cards gets you a modern pack, what with the basic land and all, does it not?

 

[Dougggggg]

Absolutely. But instilling that skill on my playgroup would be a Herculean task, when nearly all of them are casual players at best. This is where I've chosen to "fix" this problem for my players, without them needing to realize that a problem exists, never mind that it's being solved for them. Like I said, a bit heavy-handed, but it seems to work for my drafters.

When in doubt, do what is best for your playgroup. In fact, even when not in doubt, that is probably what you should be doing.

There were no extra lands, just 18 cards. It was an experience no-one appreciated.

@eric 14 cards gets you a modern pack, what with the basic land and all, does it not?

This has got me thinking, this kind of idea could work but it would probably take increasing deck size. This seems like unexplored space. It could just be a bad idea, simply make things more inconsistent, and make drafting/deck building take longer than it needs to.

 

[Dougggggg]

yes actually
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/5125

i've never actually drafted this list though

I browse cubes kinda slow but so far this looks pretty sweet. I may have to proxy this up and try it out. Life of the Loam is one of my favorite magic cards.

 

[Eric Chan]

@eric 14 cards gets you a modern pack, what with the basic land and all, does it not?

Yup, exactly! There's actually a lot of good reasons to go down to fourteen cards, not the least of which is that it more closely approximates the retail Limited format. Forcing players to make do with less is another, although in cube, that usually isn't a problem, because there are far fewer filler cards than in any Wizards-created draft format. Instead of needing to cut 27 or 28 spells down to 23, people usually now have roughly 25 solid playables as their starting point.

 

[Jonas]

Yup, exactly! There's actually a lot of good reasons to go down to fourteen cards, not the least of which is that it more closely approximates the retail Limited format. Forcing players to make do with less is another, although in cube, that usually isn't a problem, because there are far fewer filler cards than in any regular draft. Instead of needing to cut 27 or 28 spells down to 23, people usually now have roughly 25 solid playables as their starting point.

I also like that even if you have 8 people anda 360 cube, there are still some cards out, which to me at least is a bit exciting!

Douggggggggg, just make sure that you have cards that are interesting all the way around. If you make 40 card decks, it feels like you have a done deck halfway through the second pack.

 

[anotak]

I browse cubes kinda slow but so far this looks pretty sweet. I may have to proxy this up and try it out. Life of the Loam is one of my favorite magic cards.

if you do, let me know how it goes, i never had the chance to actually draft it, as another cube project took over in the meantime and i've been focusing on that

 

[Eric Chan]

I'm now down to a 378 card cube, which can actually support nine people with the fourteen card packs!

 

[Dougggggg]

I need to finish a damn cube. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and keep getting halfway done making one before I have a revelation and toss it all aside and start over from scratch.

 

[Lucre]

Yeah the extrabig packs have been discussed a lot. A lot of folks on salvation seemed to think it was the best compromise. I can kinda get behind that but it only really does half the things you get from the utility draft. There are a lot of cards out there that feel like niche picks and putting them in fights with lightning bolt feels weird and leads to funny things happening mid and late pack. I'm feeling a little too addled right now to get properly into it, but I really like how the utility land draft has been interacting with the little guys so far.

Also I'd recommend talking to peasant and pauper cubers about 15th card gimmicks for stuff like urza lands or rares to see how it influences your environment to include little expectations of a smaller cardpool in your drafts.

 

[CML]

I would much, much rather reduce pack size and draft more. Something like 4x12 should do the trick or 4x13 if, like Chan, you hate composite numbers

 

[Lucre]

4x11 is so good

 

[Laz]

I would much, much rather reduce pack size and draft more. Something like 4x12 should do the trick or 4x13 if, like Chan, you hate composite numbers

I find that this works very well with < 8 drafters. I usually do 4x11 for 6 drafters, though I am going to try going up to 4x12 tonight. It makes the wheel feel right.

Diluting pack quality with niche cards sounds like a pretty bad plan. You are inevitably going to end up with the problem of no one wanting a weaker card and someone getting it last or second last pick, then it basically being down to luck as to whether or not they can/want to play that card. Similar to dedicated sideboard cards like Pyroblast coming around last and sometimes falling on a Red drafter. When it blows out the Blue deck they were playing against in game 2, it had nothing to do with drafting skill or play skill, but just being lucky enough to be playing the right colours and wheeling a naff card.

 

[Jason Waddell]

The other problem with the weak card pack dilution thing is that banking on the end of pack drivel actually reaching the right player is bad news.

And one of the biggest benefits of the Utility Land Draft is that you can shove in stuff that is only in demand like 20% of the time anyways.