405 Mostly Modern Cube
- Thread starter Sean McClane
- Start date
No no, I think Sean was right, I deserve the credit here. C'mon lackey, don't you know you're the TSG of our relationship?
Well, we are doing an audio cast, so I think the non-visible Sharks jersey is obligatory.
First, lets start with a copy and paste from the "3-0'd" thread about my last draft
Now let's continue with another copy and paste from the Dark Depth's SCD thread
While this combo maybe very powerful, this is a singleton cube environment. Granted, there are multiple cards that work together to for this combo, this is still a singleton cube environment. There are three of the clonees and two of the cloners, if you happen to draft all five of them that is only one-eighth of your deck. If this happens to be your only win condition you end up playing, IMO, an extremely weak deck that requires experience to get wins. Just like any combo, this deck can just get the nuts draw and perfect timing, but that is any combo. Also this is a creature combo, this is an esasy to disrupt, very fragile combo.
In ---> Out
Jace, Architect of Thought ---> Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Kessig Wolf Run ---> Burning-Tree Shaman
Tamiyo is possibly on the ban list due to playgroup complaint. Have never played with the Jace, so why not...
Kessig Wolf Run is a card I've been wanting to play, and I've been having issues with Gruul as it is.
My favorite deck to draft went 2-0, as our drafting location closed before round 3
PesterKiki (2-0)
Sweet, the ice age lands came up!
Key sideboard cards of note
Engineered Explosives
Round 1 against Bant midrange (2-1)
I combo'd for both of the wins here. My opponent had the combo stopper in Mouth of Ronom in play, while I had Zealous Conscripts in play, but instead played a Green Sun's Zenith for a Tarmogoyf. Also looking at a 5/5 Knight of the Reliquary on turn 4 was rough.
Round 2 against Boros (2-1)
Once again combo'd off for both wins. Had to lose Aetherling in combat so I could live to see another turn. Had a level 2 Figure of Destiny, Stromkirk Noble, and Legion Loyalist swinging at me all at once. Pyroclasm and Ratchet Bomb were key here, as was the Engineered Explosives out of the board.
Now let's continue with another copy and paste from the Dark Depth's SCD thread
Now let's start the non-copied text and begin with an arguement FOR the Pester-Kiki combo
While this combo maybe very powerful, this is a singleton cube environment. Granted, there are multiple cards that work together to for this combo, this is still a singleton cube environment. There are three of the clonees and two of the cloners, if you happen to draft all five of them that is only one-eighth of your deck. If this happens to be your only win condition you end up playing, IMO, an extremely weak deck that requires experience to get wins. Just like any combo, this deck can just get the nuts draw and perfect timing, but that is any combo. Also this is a creature combo, this is an esasy to disrupt, very fragile combo.
In ---> Out
Jace, Architect of Thought ---> Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Kessig Wolf Run ---> Burning-Tree Shaman
Tamiyo is possibly on the ban list due to playgroup complaint. Have never played with the Jace, so why not...
Kessig Wolf Run is a card I've been wanting to play, and I've been having issues with Gruul as it is.
Not to rain on your parade, but I think you should take your playgroup's concerns into consideration. Ultimately, you have the final say, but if your players aren't having fun, and they feel their input is being ignored, everyone will probably get less out of your cube drafts than they could.
As others have said on your other thread, the Modern Constructed format and the Modern Cube format are very different animals, and design lessons from one don't really translate well over to the other. While people can pack all sorts of dedicated hate for the combo in their 75-card constructed decks, it's often much less likely that opponents will have the instant speed answer in hand at the moment you go for it. Some decks in particular will have a much tougher time of this than others; I'm thinking base green decks, for example, will probably just sit there being miserable while waiting for you to assemble the combo. The other major variable that affects the viability of the combo is the speed of your cube. The faster your cube, the more fair the combo is, as decks can try to pressure and overwhelm you before you put together the pieces. But again, it's unlikely that the speed of your Modern cube comes into range of the speed of Modern constructed. I'd estimate that my own cube is a fair bit faster than limited sets, but a hair slower than Standard. This can make a turn five, two card, instant win combo unappealing to players.
Again, I'm not necessarily advocating cutting the combo from your cube. But listen to your players! Sometimes you may have to read between the lines to suss out their intentions, but if they're not having fun, it's really on you to address that.
As others have said on your other thread, the Modern Constructed format and the Modern Cube format are very different animals, and design lessons from one don't really translate well over to the other. While people can pack all sorts of dedicated hate for the combo in their 75-card constructed decks, it's often much less likely that opponents will have the instant speed answer in hand at the moment you go for it. Some decks in particular will have a much tougher time of this than others; I'm thinking base green decks, for example, will probably just sit there being miserable while waiting for you to assemble the combo. The other major variable that affects the viability of the combo is the speed of your cube. The faster your cube, the more fair the combo is, as decks can try to pressure and overwhelm you before you put together the pieces. But again, it's unlikely that the speed of your Modern cube comes into range of the speed of Modern constructed. I'd estimate that my own cube is a fair bit faster than limited sets, but a hair slower than Standard. This can make a turn five, two card, instant win combo unappealing to players.
Again, I'm not necessarily advocating cutting the combo from your cube. But listen to your players! Sometimes you may have to read between the lines to suss out their intentions, but if they're not having fun, it's really on you to address that.
And yeah this is the part where the combo dies.
The more and more I read posts here and recall reactions to the players I played against last week, it may just be time to give the combo the axe...
But hey gives me another reason to put this in
In ---> Out
Resurrection ---> Entreat the Angels
Adarkar Valkyrie ---> Terminus
Clone ---> Temporal Mastery
Destructive Force ---> Splinter Twin
Earthquake ---> Bonfire of the Damned
Stone Rain ---> Zo-zu the Punisher
Siege-Gang Commander ---> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Ghor-Clan Rampager ---> Domri Rade
Zealous Conscripts isn't going anywhere. Either is Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch
Miracles are out for the same reason the combo went out, fun factor. Suppoort for other archetypes comes in with combo and miracles leaving.
Domri Rade has been pooped upon by my group. Ghor-Clan returns.
Wanted another land destruction spell in red.
An idea my friend suggested is to start including cards from the Duel Decks/Commander that aren't original printings. This could give some help to a few struggling strageties. This also starts a slope towards become more of a modern bordered cube Graveborn and that Red deck special promo thing and nervously temps me to go into judge foils and from the vault crap... ugh...
But I've been thinking, this is my cube, mostly modern, lets try to think of cards that we feel if reprinted wouldn't becomed banned in a modern format. Basically like my own special timeshifted edition. I'm thinking of focusing this special timeshifted selection of the cube to one of each color, possibly an artifact and a land. Now this is where some fun discssion should come in. I would love some help on this. Finding cards that are powerful for the modern format, that would see reprinting in this era of magic. The only card I'm looking at so far is Sulfuric Vortex and the red inclusion the rest will be found with research and discussion
W:
U:
B:
R: Sulfuric Vortex
G:
Art:
Land:
Also thanks Eric for fixing the title of this thread
Lol. Don't mention it. Seriously, mention it again and I'll SMACK YOU UPSIDE THE HEAD
Those look like pretty awesome changes all round. As a big fan of land destruction myself, I'm always heartened to see good ol' Stone Rain in a cube. Who doesn't love the original.
Those look like pretty awesome changes all round. As a big fan of land destruction myself, I'm always heartened to see good ol' Stone Rain in a cube. Who doesn't love the original.
Gruul continues to be a little bit of a convered mana cost issue at 4cc. Right now my Gruul section looks like this...
Kessig Wolf Run
Bloodbraid Elf
Ghor-Clan Rampager
Huntmaster of the Fells
Sarkhan Vol
Bringing in Burning-Tree Shaman for Ghor-Clan was a simple switch, but then the problem became that I couldn't think of another Gruul card I really wanted in. Then I remembered this fun land... Raging Ravine. I've been finding over time, that lands cards have been high picks with myself and a few others in my playgroup, so if adding a land addresses an issue, it is going to be an easy switch. This also screams to me I need to add Expedition Map to my cube to give players a way to search up the lands they need and drafted so highly. Looking into the artifact section, I see Sundering Titan and think his time in the cube might have came to an end.
Now the new problem, which 4cc Gruul card to cut?
In ---> Out
Burning-Tree Shaman ---> Ghor-Clan Rampager
Raging Ravine ---> Bloodbraid Elf/Huntmaster of the Fells/Sarkhan Vol
Expedition Map ---> Sundering Titan
Sean McClane's special "Timeshifted" project update.
Not gonna happen. Just think it would not work how it was planned.
Kessig Wolf Run
Bloodbraid Elf
Ghor-Clan Rampager
Huntmaster of the Fells
Sarkhan Vol
Bringing in Burning-Tree Shaman for Ghor-Clan was a simple switch, but then the problem became that I couldn't think of another Gruul card I really wanted in. Then I remembered this fun land... Raging Ravine. I've been finding over time, that lands cards have been high picks with myself and a few others in my playgroup, so if adding a land addresses an issue, it is going to be an easy switch. This also screams to me I need to add Expedition Map to my cube to give players a way to search up the lands they need and drafted so highly. Looking into the artifact section, I see Sundering Titan and think his time in the cube might have came to an end.
Now the new problem, which 4cc Gruul card to cut?
Burning-Tree Shaman ---> Ghor-Clan Rampager
Raging Ravine ---> Bloodbraid Elf/Huntmaster of the Fells/Sarkhan Vol
Expedition Map ---> Sundering Titan
Sean McClane's special "Timeshifted" project update.
Not gonna happen. Just think it would not work how it was planned.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
If you're having a problem with a pileup of 4-drops (and most Cubers are, the first step is recognizing it), I wouldn't cut Rampager, which is rarely an actual 4-drop and more often a car crash for 2 mana.
Maybe becasue I never played with the card it was my first cut, but the 2 mana bloodrush is good for aggro, so Ghor-Clan can return...
Updated...
In ---> Out
Ghor-Clan Rampager ---> Huntmaster of the Fells
Raging Ravine ---> Sarkhan Vol
Which makes the Gruul look like this
Kessig Wolf Run
Raging Ravine
Ghor-Clan Rampager (2 or 4)
Burning-Tree Shaman
Bloodbraid Elf
Updated...
In ---> Out
Ghor-Clan Rampager ---> Huntmaster of the Fells
Raging Ravine ---> Sarkhan Vol
Which makes the Gruul look like this
Kessig Wolf Run
Raging Ravine
Ghor-Clan Rampager (2 or 4)
Burning-Tree Shaman
Bloodbraid Elf
Looks like a fun Gruul section. I do love me some Sarkhan Vol, but we are rocking a major sacrifice theme which ups his stock considerably.
That looks like a sweet Gruul section, Sean. I find that Kessig Wolf Run is an incredible finisher for the midrange decks, so it's defensible to cut Huntmaster, which tends to go into the same sort of decks.
And yeah, Rampager is sweet. Him and Bloodbraid make the GR aggro decks sing.
And yeah, Rampager is sweet. Him and Bloodbraid make the GR aggro decks sing.
Thanks for the comments on the gruul section. This forum has me thinking about what is best for the cube, not what is the best card because of powerlevel.
Losing Sarkhan Vol sucks, now down to one Threaten ability in the cube :/, but on the positive side, it cut down on the number of planeswalkers, which is somewhat out of control in one color, white.
Looking at the planeswalker breakdown for my cube, I noticed this...
White: Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Ajani Goldmane, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth Tirel, and Gideon Jura
Blue: Jace Beleren, Jace, Architect of Thought, Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Black: Liliana of the Veil
Red: Chandra, Pyromaster, Koth of the Hammer, Chandra Nalaar
Green: Garruk Relentless, Garruk Wildspeaker, Garruk, Primal Hunter
Multicolor: Venser, the Sojourner, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Ral Zarek, Ajani Vengeant
Colorless: Karn, Liberated
What I don't like is white having so many planeswalkers, while black has so few.
What I feel is the easy part of the conversation is the black aspect. With my cube Liliana of the Dark Realms doesn't shine to well here as most of the time decks are two-three colors. I know it can work in a two colored deck, but I think it is worth looking at. Liliana Vess is kinda there at this point. The tutoring ability is a plus as no tutor for a card ability is not in the cube, but the discard ability at 5 mana doesn't seem well. Sorin Markov has the same problem that Vess does, it is just kinda there, an ability that isn't in the cube, but not worth the cost/investment. So black sits and waits at this point, hoping for another planeswalker to arrive that fits the cube.
White however is overflowing with planeswalkers, to the point I think I should put a limit on planeswalkers per color. 3 per mono color, 1 per guild, 1 colorless. With that said, white needs to trim some planeswalker fat. I feel like the best three are Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, and Gideon Jura. Ajani is aggro, Elspeth works well in both aggro and control, and Gideon Jura is control. Ajani Goldmane and Elspeth Tirel are now on the outside looking in...
I'm probably gonna run out of songs soon...
In ---> Out
Emeria Angel ---> Ajani Goldmane
Galepowder Mage ---> Elspeth Tirel
Emeria Angel seems like a natural fit with the 17 fetchlands in the cube (lol)
Galepowder Mage, a blink ability that can abuse enters the battlefield creatures, also move problem blockers out of the way seems worth a try.
Losing Sarkhan Vol sucks, now down to one Threaten ability in the cube :/, but on the positive side, it cut down on the number of planeswalkers, which is somewhat out of control in one color, white.
Looking at the planeswalker breakdown for my cube, I noticed this...
White: Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Ajani Goldmane, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth Tirel, and Gideon Jura
Blue: Jace Beleren, Jace, Architect of Thought, Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Black: Liliana of the Veil
Red: Chandra, Pyromaster, Koth of the Hammer, Chandra Nalaar
Green: Garruk Relentless, Garruk Wildspeaker, Garruk, Primal Hunter
Multicolor: Venser, the Sojourner, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Ral Zarek, Ajani Vengeant
Colorless: Karn, Liberated
What I don't like is white having so many planeswalkers, while black has so few.
What I feel is the easy part of the conversation is the black aspect. With my cube Liliana of the Dark Realms doesn't shine to well here as most of the time decks are two-three colors. I know it can work in a two colored deck, but I think it is worth looking at. Liliana Vess is kinda there at this point. The tutoring ability is a plus as no tutor for a card ability is not in the cube, but the discard ability at 5 mana doesn't seem well. Sorin Markov has the same problem that Vess does, it is just kinda there, an ability that isn't in the cube, but not worth the cost/investment. So black sits and waits at this point, hoping for another planeswalker to arrive that fits the cube.
White however is overflowing with planeswalkers, to the point I think I should put a limit on planeswalkers per color. 3 per mono color, 1 per guild, 1 colorless. With that said, white needs to trim some planeswalker fat. I feel like the best three are Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, and Gideon Jura. Ajani is aggro, Elspeth works well in both aggro and control, and Gideon Jura is control. Ajani Goldmane and Elspeth Tirel are now on the outside looking in...
In ---> Out
Emeria Angel ---> Ajani Goldmane
Galepowder Mage ---> Elspeth Tirel
Emeria Angel seems like a natural fit with the 17 fetchlands in the cube (lol)
Galepowder Mage, a blink ability that can abuse enters the battlefield creatures, also move problem blockers out of the way seems worth a try.
CML
Contributor
It always confuses me that there are some Cubes that don't run Galepowder.
Resurrection is awfully weak and it costs 4, which was something you were trying to avoid. I'd keep Domri too, rest of your cuts look good (Ajani Goldmane is really strong in lower-power Cubes)
It occurs to me that Miracles might be fun with a big cantrip theme. I think maybe try White Sun's Zenith if you're looking for a sweeter card in that vein
Resurrection is awfully weak and it costs 4, which was something you were trying to avoid. I'd keep Domri too, rest of your cuts look good (Ajani Goldmane is really strong in lower-power Cubes)
It occurs to me that Miracles might be fun with a big cantrip theme. I think maybe try White Sun's Zenith if you're looking for a sweeter card in that vein
Dom Harvey
Contributor
CML, is Galepowder better than another Resto?
I don't think the answer to black's PW problem is to add Sorin; sadly, there just aren't really many good black 'walkers. Liliana is cool though and works well with the miracle theme CML suggested.
I don't think the answer to black's PW problem is to add Sorin; sadly, there just aren't really many good black 'walkers. Liliana is cool though and works well with the miracle theme CML suggested.
CML
Contributor
Yeah, Galepowder is a delight. It blinks your Vensers. It blinks their blockers. Sometimes, if all they have is Vensers, it blinks your other attackers.
I dunno, two Lilianas of the Veil? If you don't want to break singleton then 3BBB Sorin is a reasonably powerful card for that slot IMHO, and if he doesn't appeal then f precise color balance. Getting the colors roughly on the same power level is quite important, but having precisely the same amount of cards / card types in each color is at most a quaternary consideration. Not to say that you do this at all, but most conventional cube designers obsess about these fetishes as a way of convincing themselves their Cubes are not awful
I have only Lili and 2WB sorin for black walkers, it's fine. I do really like Lili and think she's only OK in formats like Cube, I may add another
I dunno, two Lilianas of the Veil? If you don't want to break singleton then 3BBB Sorin is a reasonably powerful card for that slot IMHO, and if he doesn't appeal then f precise color balance. Getting the colors roughly on the same power level is quite important, but having precisely the same amount of cards / card types in each color is at most a quaternary consideration. Not to say that you do this at all, but most conventional cube designers obsess about these fetishes as a way of convincing themselves their Cubes are not awful
I have only Lili and 2WB sorin for black walkers, it's fine. I do really like Lili and think she's only OK in formats like Cube, I may add another
Power-level wise? Nope. Well, especially not in constructed, where the 4th point of toughness is the difference between life and death. It's a sweet one though, fun to use in the Eldrazi cube and certainly worth a shot if you're not p-maxing.
Drafted a 4 man last night, and I thought I was going to play something really strong after the first six picks...
Pick 1: Sword of Feast and Famine
Pick 2: Troll Ascetic
Pick 3: Hokori, Dust Drinker
Pick 4: Dark Confidant
Pick 5: Gemstone Mine
Pick 6: Mirror Entity
I have mana fixing, I had draw, and I have bombs, sweet lets do this... then the white cards never really came back...
Ending up playing a Golgari (small splash of white) aggro deck. Defeated a ramp deck that never found the bombs. Best part about this game was me controling a Phyrexian Ironfoot equiped with Sword of Feast and Famine as well as Grafted Wargear
Round two was against a Bant Land matters deck with Knight of the Reliquary, Vinelasher Kudzu, Meloku the Clouded Mirror, and all the looters Enclave Cryptologist, Looter il-Kor, and Merfolk Looter
However none of that really mattered as my opponent cast Kalonian Hydra followed by a Phantasmal Image copying the Hydra.... yeah that attack was brutal....
Pick 1: Sword of Feast and Famine
Pick 2: Troll Ascetic
Pick 3: Hokori, Dust Drinker
Pick 4: Dark Confidant
Pick 5: Gemstone Mine
Pick 6: Mirror Entity
I have mana fixing, I had draw, and I have bombs, sweet lets do this... then the white cards never really came back...
Ending up playing a Golgari (small splash of white) aggro deck. Defeated a ramp deck that never found the bombs. Best part about this game was me controling a Phyrexian Ironfoot equiped with Sword of Feast and Famine as well as Grafted Wargear
Round two was against a Bant Land matters deck with Knight of the Reliquary, Vinelasher Kudzu, Meloku the Clouded Mirror, and all the looters Enclave Cryptologist, Looter il-Kor, and Merfolk Looter
However none of that really mattered as my opponent cast Kalonian Hydra followed by a Phantasmal Image copying the Hydra.... yeah that attack was brutal....